It's the keyboard layout.


It's not really just one piece of software though,  it's any number of other programs designed the same way, it's just that DosBox is the most prominent example.  

In any case,  since shift+meta is required for uppercase versions of the letters  on the meta layer anyway I see no reason to shy away from using it for symbols to provide more real estate for inclusion of other symbols.

- Neelix
 
...except it has compose and _ both on meta+space.  :lol:
Oops. Fixed: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/ad7f8862d430184105b3d91f7d717c5a

It's not really just one piece of software though,  it's any number of other programs designed the same way, it's just that DosBox is the most prominent example.  

In any case,  since shift+meta is required for uppercase versions of the letters  on the meta layer anyway I see no reason to shy away from using it for symbols to provide more real estate for inclusion of other symbols.
OK, if that's the motivation. We can probably cover all Latin-script languages with the available real estate. But no complaining about "clutter" then! ;)
 
It's not really just one piece of software though, it's any number of other programs designed the same way, it's just that DosBox is the most prominent example.
I believe QEMU was properly ported and I can't think of any other's that might have this issue ?
 
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Slightly tweaked proposals:

Meta+Shift: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/59bae967ccc523e5475e267687fd95d2

Meta only: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/448795011aec0eda1781efb5cd9ea44f

I tweaked the dead diacritics a bit:

If ü ö ä are available precomposed, then Meta+" can be used for both the remaining umlauts (ë ï) and the Hungarumlaut (double acute) ő ű. Win! Hungarian is covered without any further changes!

I now understand that the Polish Ł is not really an L with a stroke, but the diacritic is called a kreska and it's the same one as on their letters ćńśź. Basically it's an acute accent for consonants (and in the case of L, the acute/kreska goes through the letter instead of on top of it). So Meta+' can produce all of áéíóú ćńśźł, and that makes sense. So Polish can be covered with just the dead kreska (Meta+'), dead ogonek (Meta+,) and dead kropka (Meta+.) -- woohoo!

Similarly, Czech/Slovak can be covered with just the dead háček (Meta+<), dead acute (Meta+'), and dead ring (Meta+.) for ů.

So some major Eastern European languages can be covered, in particular the countries close to Germany.

Meta+> is a dead ^, and in a LaTeX sense (and in a Compose combo sense) it feels natural to let it act as a "dead superscript key" when used with numbers instead of vowels. So it could produce the ² ³ you find on German keyboards (and the ¹ found on some others, and ⁴ ⁵ ⁶ ⁷ ⁸ ⁹ ⁰  too for that matter).

If have superscripts, why not subscripts, for writing things like H₂O and indices on variables (x₃ - x₁₅) in plain Unicode. I would put it at Meta+, (together with the cedilla, since that is a rather subscript kind of diacritic), but it could also be on Meta+< for symmetry and Shift+_ for LaTeX/Compose key compatibility. AFAIK no standard keyboards have ₁ ₂ ₃ ₄ ₅ ₆ ₇ ₈ ₉ ₀, but why not add it.

I'll volunteer to help write the default xkb configuration file for the Pyra ;)

In a layout that does not have Shift+Meta labels, Shift+minus could act as a dead macron (āēīōū), Shift+/ could act as a dead stroke (ØĐŁĦ), and more like that for the remaining obscure diacritics.
 
Is it me that this has more to do with the mapping than with the layout of the keys?

Like in windows being able to use the same keyboard in US international or in Dutch mode wich give slightly different handeling of ëö¿øöµ° type characters. However the layout of the keyboard does not change.

Maybe it's nice to have a layout consensus and worry about the underlying special characters when the layout is fixed. 
 
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Is it me that this has more to do with the mapping than with the layout of the keys?

Like in windows being able to use the same keyboard in US international or in Dutch mode wich give slightly different handeling of ëö¿øöµ° type characters. However the layout of the keyboard does not change.

Maybe it's nice to have a layout consensus and worry about the underlying special characters when the layout is fixed. 
To be clear: I am proposing to actually print those special characters (üöä etc) on the keys.
 
Is it me that this has more to do with the mapping than with the layout of the keys?

Like in windows being able to use the same keyboard in US international or in Dutch mode wich give slightly different handeling of ëö¿øöµ° type characters. However the layout of the keyboard does not change.

Maybe it's nice to have a layout consensus and worry about the underlying special characters when the layout is fixed. 
To be clear: I am proposing to actually print those special characters (üöä etc) on the keys.
Hmm I regularly use the ° and the µ but have no need to see them next to the "m" and the ":" . were you also planning on printing the capital letters next to the small ones ;)  
 
I think we are confused about the distinction between compromise, and compromised.

The international users do not want a A-Z only keyboard. The only bigger group, English, doesn't need to be plagued with foreign stuff.

These two go hand in hand, resulting in a good compromise. Exclusion is not the same as compromise, it is the opposite.

The distinction between what some people prefer isn't important, not excluding huge groups or disadvantaging them is.
 
I believe QEMU was properly ported and I can't think of any other's that might have this issue ?
Just because you can't think of any doesn't mean there aren't others...  Oolite was another one that ptitseb had to fix.  

OK, if that's the motivation. We can probably cover all Latin-script languages with the available real estate. But no complaining about "clutter" then! ;)
Ahhh,  but I was never really worried about clutter. :)     That said, clutter doesn't have to be a problem and that's where the difference between mapping symbols and printing them comes in.    I think you are on the right track with the meta+shift layout above,   but I think that only the symbols you would normally find on a US keyboard and the diacritics need to be printed,  and an onscreen keymap could show the positions of the rest.  You could even make the default key map part of the default desktop wallpaper. :)   

- Neelix
 
OK, if that's the motivation. We can probably cover all Latin-script languages with the available real estate. But no complaining about "clutter" then!
This is what I've been saying for a while now, why I became so keen on Grench's idea. Forget DosBox compatibility, it frees up space and helps with mental mapping.Regarding clutter, I've never believed that three symbols was cluttered and have yet to see anyone present evidence that it is. It's been proven that we can get quite a few characters by only using 3 symbols per key with implicit upper/lowercase letters.
 
OK, if that's the motivation. We can probably cover all Latin-script languages with the available real estate. But no complaining about "clutter" then!
This is what I've been saying for a while now, why I became so keen on Grench's idea. Forget DosBox compatibility, it frees up space and helps with mental mapping.Regarding clutter, I've never believed that three symbols was cluttered and have yet to see anyone present evidence that it is. It's been proven that we can get quite a few characters by only using 3 symbols per key with implicit upper/lowercase letters.
Agreed. The clutter police thing is far overblown. It may have been relevant on early layouts with 4 characters presented on each key, but we've progressed a LONG ways since then.

_wb_'s layout above and this one are very similar with some distinct differences. Is this still on track or have I deviated too far from the layout that you liked?

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/467f092b9169fe6c6b411baa5a39beeb
 
OK, if that's the motivation. We can probably cover all Latin-script languages with the available real estate. But no complaining about "clutter" then!
This is what I've been saying for a while now, why I became so keen on Grench's idea. Forget DosBox compatibility, it frees up space and helps with mental mapping.
Regarding clutter, I've never believed that three symbols was cluttered and have yet to see anyone present evidence that it is. It's been proven that we can get quite a few characters by only using 3 symbols per key with implicit upper/lowercase letters.
Agreed. The clutter police thing is far overblown. It may have been relevant on early layouts with 4 characters presented on each key, but we've progressed a LONG ways since then.


_wb_'s layout above and this one are very similar with some distinct differences. Is this still on track or have I deviated too far from the layout that you liked?

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/467f092b9169fe6c6b411baa5a39beeb
The dead stroke and double-acute on Meta+A is more or less redundant: as I discovered earlier today, if we have üö already precomposed, then the Meta+" can act as double-acute for the Hungarian űő, and the stroke in Ł is actually a Polish acute (kreska) so we can let it be produced by Meta+' L. So there is no more need for double-acute, and stroke is only useful for Đ and Ħ, but those are relatively obscure.

Dedicated primary PrintScreen and Pause feels like a bit of a waste, and why no more primary Esc?

I prefer a dedicated primary Tab.

F11 and F12 up top feels more 'correct' than down below, though a mashable F11 to toggle fullscreen is quite nice.
 
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Besides one of my own ( ;) )I like sabres latest the best...

:ph34r:
I'm partial to the latest as well because I know it will work. :)   

Anyone know which is the true favored layout now from the compromises team? Lost after so many revisions from them.  :huh:
 
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I like the progress, and I have a feeling ED wants only one meta label per key. (It would be nice to know his preferences, but on the other hand he didn't ask us to work on this either...)

My comments/concerns with _wb_'s latest and greatest:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/448795011aec0eda1781efb5cd9ea44f

1. I like the symmetry between {}[]/|\. To me it really helps guide the eyes towards the symbols. In my own layouts I also try to have patterns, though I have also been trying to keep things like ü on Meta+U.

2. I appreciate the "breakthroughs" on diacritics. I think we can all benefit from them, especially if we get the Neelix(?)-suggested keyboard Mea+GUI popup going.

3. At one point I thought about switching = and +, so there's a symmetry of (-=+). I think it's a net gain for the code-combos score. (It lowers i++, but gains -= and increases /=.) Here's an alternative rearrangement of yours which increases the code combos quite a bit, though it may look a little less symmetric to some:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/73a832d97d3d555a888dee767649badb

(Nice subtle symmetries: operator opposites are vertically two keys apart.)

4. Concern: I would prefer keyboard Meta and Shift to be on the right (switching places with , and .), for the following reasons. This has a nice symmetry of putting all diacritics on the left side of the board. It also makes it possible to easily do a shift+meta+button for any key on the left side of the keyboard, which would be the more common side of the keyboard to do both modifiers on. (Like with Shift+Meta+Tab for Grave, and Shift+Meta+F for Ä.) It would also raise the code combo score (you get <= and >= for free).

5. Very small concern: { Enter is a very painful code-combo, so you penalize C/C++ peeps ;) .

Any thoughts on an even more ible-fied arrangement of your symbols?

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/1417479de73c9231d7e258fd0eb779a4
 
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No time now for a detailed answer, but

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/8e2043b67cc1b33225d69686868dc76d

could be a good idea indeed. Less mashable Meta-keys, but mashing is probably overrated.

My biggest problem with

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/1417479de73c9231d7e258fd0eb779a4

is the mix between ASCII punctuation and language-specific precomposed letters. Having them more separated/clustered seems better than having letters like äüößçñ as a Meta key on their 'natural' letter.
 
OK, if that's the motivation. We can probably cover all Latin-script languages with the available real estate. But no complaining about "clutter" then!
This is what I've been saying for a while now, why I became so keen on Grench's idea. Forget DosBox compatibility, it frees up space and helps with mental mapping.
Regarding clutter, I've never believed that three symbols was cluttered and have yet to see anyone present evidence that it is. It's been proven that we can get quite a few characters by only using 3 symbols per key with implicit upper/lowercase letters.
Agreed. The clutter police thing is far overblown. It may have been relevant on early layouts with 4 characters presented on each key, but we've progressed a LONG ways since then.


_wb_'s layout above and this one are very similar with some distinct differences. Is this still on track or have I deviated too far from the layout that you liked?

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/467f092b9169fe6c6b411baa5a39beeb
 
The dead stroke and double-acute on Meta+A is more or less redundant: as I discovered earlier today, if we have üö already precomposed, then the Meta+" can act as double-acute for the Hungarian űő, and the stroke in Ł is actually a Polish acute (kreska) so we can let it be produced by Meta+' L. So there is no more need for double-acute, and stroke is only useful for Đ and Ħ, but those are relatively obscure.


Dedicated primary PrintScreen and Pause feels like a bit of a waste, and why no more primary Esc?


I prefer a dedicated primary Tab.


F11 and F12 up top feels more 'correct' than down below, though a mashable F11 to toggle fullscreen is quite nice.
Redundant diacritics?:

The two diacritics on the A key may very well be overkill, but they complete the set. If they truly are redundant, then I'm sure we could find something else to put on the A key's Fn layer. That isn't a primary design piece.

Tab or `~ as a primary key?:

Having `~ on a primary key IS a primary design piece. ` and ~ are both used in Linux command line.  That this also frees them up for consistent Diacritic use is a convenient bonus.  Embedding ~ at Fn+shift layer on the left side of a keyboard with the Fn key on the left makes ~ require shoulder buttons or funky left thumb and a left finger combo desktop typing.  This also reduces the number of US keyboard symbols that are present in the Fn+shift layer.

With Fn on the left and space on the right, Tab can live on the space bar without any serious pain. Multiple tabs can be entered easily. Tab being a 'wide space' and having been there on the Pandora makes sense - though it is MUCH easier to use on this layout than it was on the Pandora (left Fn).

Yes, this is a trade-off.  I think it's a well thought out one.

Top layer PrtSc and Pause:


Dedicated PrintScreen and Pause make sense to have (present on a normal keyboard). Why? Because these two keys are prone to use with additional modifiers (Alt+PrtSc screen captures current foreground app) (Ctrl+Pause/Break is used as an interrupt in many programs and editors). Subjecting them to the Fn or shift+Fn layer then using them with additional Alt and Ctrl modifiers may be more than the users want to sort out.  Added bonus, 'Pause' goes nicely with Start and Select for gaming - this puts it in a nice spot to reach from the nubs.

Esc on Fn layer:


Esc is an important key, but rarely used without great forethought. It can live on the Fn layer. That same key, though, has the hardware menu selection (≡) tied to it. I.e. press the key and it pulls up the menu with controls for the radios, USB ports, HDMI, etc. It's intended to be a configuration shortcut.

F11 and F12 bottom row left:


F11 and F12 look like an afterthought in EITHER position (up top OR in keys area). If we wanted them to look like they belong, they would have to take the only 12 button row in the main keyboard area. I tried that and the idea was collectively shat on. Having it where it is easy to toggle full screen is about as good as it gets with these - i.e. some added function.

There were a few other concepts that I'm exploring in this layout.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/467f092b9169fe6c6b411baa5a39beeb

Power button behavior:


"Power" button normal use is wake/standby. This is common to most of these layouts


Logically Fn+ power button should be Shutdown.

Ideally simply pressing the button would 'power on' and/or 'wake', regardless of state.

Holding Fn and power for 3+ seconds together should be a 'Hard' shutdown.

Back Light button behavior:

No modifier press is screen brightness up.

Shift+ press is screen brightness down.

Fn+ press is keyboard brightness up.

Fn+shift+press is keyboard brightness down.

Change in how Alt/Start, Ctrl/Select are labeled:

In the spirit of "call it what it IS" I decided that the primary labels for these should be Alt(Gr) and Ctrl with small labels for Start and Select.  Frankly, they're used far more as Alt and Ctrl than they are in the few emulators and games that are actually mapped to use them as Start/Select.  So, I want to label the computer function of the key primary and the, "Only works in some applications," label secondary.

Insert and Delete key's 'game letter' labels:

People have toyed with +,-, Greek, (z),© and likely other options.

If they're going to be Insert and Delete, why not give them lettered labels (I) and (D) to go with the (X) (Y) (A) ( B) set?

None of these were done haphazard or without reason.
 
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I like the progress, and I have a feeling ED wants only one meta label per key. (It would be nice to know his preferences, but on the other hand he didn't ask us to work on this either...)


My comments/concerns with _wb_'s latest and greatest:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/448795011aec0eda1781efb5cd9ea44f
Okay, that's the definitive one then. Really didn't know for sure anymore.

As for the recurring discussion about Tab, a multitude have voiced strong approval for a dedicated Tab key.  
 
I like the progress, and I have a feeling ED wants only one meta label per key. (It would be nice to know his preferences, but on the other hand he didn't ask us to work on this either...)


My comments/concerns with _wb_'s latest and greatest:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/448795011aec0eda1781efb5cd9ea44f
Okay, that's the definitive one then. Really didn't know for sure anymore.

That's why we have the "Final keyboard layout proposals" thread: http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/17568-final-keyboard-layout-proposals//URL]

Redundant diacritics?:


The two diacritics on the A key may very well be overkill, but they complete the set. If they truly are redundant, then I'm sure we could find something else to put on the A key's Fn layer. That isn't a primary design piece.

I don't think it is possible nor desireable to really "complete the set" of diacritics. We could still add:

  •   ̏ double grave ("used in scholarly discussions of the Croatian, Serbian, and sometimes Slovene languages. It is also used in the International Phonetic Alphabet." says Wikipedia)
  • ˘  breve (now I let the dead caron produce ğ for Turkish and ă for Romanian, instead of ǧ ǎ which are not used in any major living languages, but if you want to be able to write ǧ instead of ğ (e.g. you are one of the 400 speakers of Skolt Sami), then caron and breve have to be split)
  •   ̑ inverted breve (used in the IPA)
  • ◌̡ ◌̢ ◌̉ all kinds of hooks, mostly for Vietnamese and some African languages
  • ◌̑ horn, for Vietnamese
  • ◌̄ macron, for Latvian and Lithuanian
  • ◌̦ comma, to distinguish the Turkish Ş from the Romanian Ș

At some point it makes no sense anymore to use the dead diacritics approach :)

Tab or `~ as a primary key?:


Having `~ on a primary key IS a primary design piece. ` and ~ are both used in Linux command line.  That this also frees them up for consistent Diacritic use is a convenient bonus.  Embedding ~ at Fn+shift layer on the left side of a keyboard with the Fn key on the left makes ~ require shoulder buttons or funky left thumb and a left finger combo desktop typing.  This also reduces the number of US keyboard symbols that are present in the Fn+shift layer.


With Fn on the left and space on the right, Tab can live on the space bar without any serious pain. Multiple tabs can be entered easily. Tab being a 'wide space' and having been there on the Pandora makes sense - though it is MUCH easier to use on this layout than it was on the Pandora (left Fn).


Yes, this is a trade-off.  I think it's a well thought out one.

I know the trade-off. I just think it is giving away too much (dedicated Tab) in return for too little: ` and ~ are among the least important symbols for coding, and they are not used at all in natural language. There are many other keys that would be better to have as dedicated keys, e.g. /? or ;:.

` is not used on the command line at all, ~ is used but I wouldn't overestimate its importance either: I think Tab / - | = > <  are more important on the command line, roughly in that order.

Top layer PrtSc and Pause:


Dedicated PrintScreen and Pause make sense to have (present on a normal keyboard). Why? Because these two keys are prone to use with additional modifiers (Alt+PrtSc screen captures current foreground app) (Ctrl+Pause/Break is used as an interrupt in many programs and editors). Subjecting them to the Fn or shift+Fn layer then using them with additional Alt and Ctrl modifiers may be more than the users want to sort out.  Added bonus, 'Pause' goes nicely with Start and Select for gaming - this puts it in a nice spot to reach from the nubs.

We do the same thing with the F-keys, it should not really be a problem. What about Ctrl-plus/minus to zoom in/out in many programs? That would be Shift-Fn-Ctrl-P. No problem if you use the shoulder modifiers, tricky otherwise.

Esc on Fn layer:


Esc is an important key, but rarely used without great forethought. It can live on the Fn layer. That same key, though, has the hardware menu selection (≡) tied to it. I.e. press the key and it pulls up the menu with controls for the radios, USB ports, HDMI, etc. It's intended to be a configuration shortcut.
I don't know if e.g. for vi users Esc is "rarely used without great forethought".

F11 and F12 bottom row left:


F11 and F12 look like an afterthought in EITHER position (up top OR in keys area). If we wanted them to look like they belong, they would have to take the only 12 button row in the main keyboard area. I tried that and the idea was collectively shat on. Having it where it is easy to toggle full screen is about as good as it gets with these - i.e. some added function.
I agree that there is no way in which we can put all F-keys somewhere such that it look like they belong there (even all-in-a-row on the QWERTY row is not really the normal spot: they should be above the number row, not below it). Still, top-right for F11, F12 is "more correct" than bottom-left.

There were a few other concepts that I'm exploring in this layout.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/467f092b9169fe6c6b411baa5a39beeb

Power button behavior:


"Power" button normal use is wake/standby. This is common to most of these layouts


Logically Fn+ power button should be Shutdown.


Ideally simply pressing the button would 'power on' and/or 'wake', regardless of state.


Holding Fn and power for 3+ seconds together should be a 'Hard' shutdown.

Back Light button behavior:


No modifier press is screen brightness up.


Shift+ press is screen brightness down.


Fn+ press is keyboard brightness up.


Fn+shift+press is keyboard brightness down.

Change in how Alt/Start, Ctrl/Select are labeled:


In the spirit of "call it what it IS" I decided that the primary labels for these should be Alt(Gr) and Ctrl with small labels for Start and Select.  Frankly, they're used far more as Alt and Ctrl than they are in the few emulators and games that are actually mapped to use them as Start/Select.  So, I want to label the computer function of the key primary and the, "Only works in some applications," label secondary.

Insert and Delete key's 'game letter' labels:


People have toyed with +,-, Greek, (z),© and likely other options.


If they're going to be Insert and Delete, why not give them lettered labels (I) and (D) to go with the (X) (Y) (A) ( B) set?


None of these were done haphazard or without reason.
I would expect that pressing the power button shows a menu which lets you choose what to do: shutdown, reboot, hibernate, lock.

We can sort out how it behaves later, but in terms of labeling, I don't think it needs any other label than just the power symbol.

Back light button: yes, that sounds good. Another option would be to let it cycle between a configurable set of brightness levels (I typically only really use min and max).

Labeling START and SELECT with Alt/Ctrl prominently and START/SELECT as small labels is a good idea. I wouldn't add the "(Gr)" though, since I think the logical thing would be to use the shoulder modifier as AltGr (for efficiency).
 
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