It's the keyboard layout.

[Saber]

Even though the symbols are compressed over to the right edge like they usually are on a full size keyboard, I don't understand how requiring the user to press two keys(Shift and Fn) together for ~ { } | _ + : " ? is not intolerable to some of you. That's abhorrent as how I've seen it done so far in some of these layouts.

I don't understand why it would be.  With Meta and Shift on adjacent keys it's just as easy to press both at once with a single finger as it is to press just one. 

If you don't believe me,  try it in the Pandora Input Tester. (the keys on the Pyra are the same size horizontally)

- Neelix

I know and I'm not saying you can't press two keys at once for say a Tab key, on the Pandora, but I am saying it will grow old really fast for that many symbols(nine by my count) for other people.   

 

[TrashyMG]

@Neelix, I was actually given an early schematic of the keyboard wiring as I'm actually planning a big project of making a working mock-up of the Pyra keyboard for my Devboard using Cherry MX key switches. I was warned that the design isn't final, but I could use it as a guide on how to start. EvilDragon didn't want me publicly sharing the design as it's not final. I can assume that the final keyboard design will finalize how it's truly wired. In my project I'm attempting to make it easy to re-wire to try different layouts until a final design is chosen.  


Currently from what I saw of the design there are schottky diodes on the modifiers keys. Also to note the four shoulder buttons are using GPIOs directly connected to the SoC, and not the I2C chip that the keyboard matrix is tied to, so I assume that reduces some of the issues for those buttons when hitting multiple keys.

I realize that you're not able to give out full information, but can you define which keys on the board design have the diodes? I.e. which keys are "modifier keys"?


That would go a long way towards understanding the constraints that would define this entire exercise.

Well it could all be totally irrelevant when the official keyboard layout is chosen... But what I see in the schematic... 


ALTGR, MENU/ESC(assume like Pandora button), SELECT/CTRL(doesn't specify if left or right), RIGHT SHIFT... There are three other Diodes that must go to switches not on the two schematic pages I was given, they are just labeled DROW5,6 and 7...  I assume two may be going to the smaller auxiliary game buttons as they are on the other page(connectors are labeled different so not 100% sure), as for the third not sure... Nikolaus warned me of the unfinished state of the schematic, I noticed there is even a breakage in the circuitry I'll need to figure out when I get to building my project.


But I'll repeat again, the schematic is irrelevant as it's not finalized and most likely will change once an official layout is chosen, I was just given a glimpse of how to start my project.  


Edit: cleaned up writing.

 

[szr]

I would really like to get some clarification something.

Most of the layouts I see have PrtScn and SysRq split into two separate keys. I would really like to understand the logic behind this, given that on most full-size keyboards they are on the same key, just like how Pause and Break usually share the same key as well.

Also, many such layouts (except for a couple) also lack a Pause/Break key.

Is there really a good reason to not move the SysRq key to be together with PrtScn on layouts like _wb_'s latest and change the foremr SysRq to Pause/Break? The Pause/Break key I feel should not[ be underestimated as there are many emulators that I've used that use it to pause emulation, which is separate from the typical Start button pause in which the emulation is still using CPU cycles and thus power, where as pausing the whole emulation effectively suspends it, so the emulator process uses minimal system resources (and battery power.)

At least this has been the case for me on desktop emulators. I do not own a Pandora so I don't know if Pause/Break was ever used in it's console and such emulators.

 

[Neelix]

ALTGR, MENU/ESC(assume like Pandora button), SELECT/CTRL(doesn't specify if left or right), RIGHT SHIFT... There are three other Diodes that must go to switches not on the two schematic pages I was given, they are just labeled DROW5,6 and 7... I assume two may be going to the smaller auxiliary game buttons as they are on the other page(connectors are labeled different so not 100% sure), as for the third not sure... Nikolaus warned me of the unfinished state of the schematic, I noticed there is even a breakage in the circuitry I'll need to figure out when I get to building my project.

Are you sure those keys are actually part of the keyboard matrix?  On the Pandora all the gaming buttons including Start/Select/Pandora had their own input lines. 

-Neelix

 

[TrashyMG]

According to the schematic I have, Yes.

 

[_wb_]

Here is a layout that does not use Shift+Meta (so it "breaks DOSBox compatibility" and "mental mappings") :

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/59b8d3798a51d7b42872963c7cba7071

Shift/Meta and Comma/Dot could be swapped if you prefer Comma/dot on the left like on the Pandora.

-

This layout only has 2 labels per key, which I guess is an advantage. It also allows you to type all symbols with at most one modifier.

I started from scratch in the symbol assignment, using a mix of design principles:

• Symbols in the proximity of their US-QWERTY location
• Keys together that semantically belong together: -+, [ ], { }, =<>, -+=, \ /, arithmetic operators + - * /, text punctuation ? : ; , .
• More frequently used symbols more to the right (for easy combination of Meta+symbol)

Furthermore it has 8 dead diacritics, a German üäöß cluster, a French àéèç cluster, and a Spanish ñ. Other languages could remap the üäö cluster to something for their language, e.g. åäö for Swedish.

It also has the symbols € and °. More symbols could be hidden behind Shift+Meta by default. E.g. there could be a µ at Shift+Meta+M, ¶ at Shift+Meta+P, § at Shift+Meta+S, and so on.

 

[codifies]

I really like http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/59b8d3798a51d7b42872963c7cba7071


Its so clear I could instantly see all the symbols - so "mental mappings" are irrelevant.


Its a shame a very vocal minority will slap this down so they can run some 30+ year old software conveniently....


Have you double checked for language compatibility, how does it do?


Really nice clear layout, well done!

 

[bzar]

Even though the symbols are compressed over to the right edge like they usually are on a full size keyboard, I don't understand how requiring the user to press two keys(Shift and Fn) together for ~ { } | _ + : " ? is not intolerable to some of you. That's abhorrent as how I've seen it done so far in some of these layouts.

Well, in my layout frequently used symbols can be freely duplicate mapped under meta without losing compatibility with the base layout
That's actually the second main feature of the layout: one is to have key compatibility with full keyboards via Fn, second is key customizability via Meta.

 

[ible]

Making a "every key has one meta label" layout, which includes _wb_'s diacritics and better coding positions

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/1417479de73c9231d7e258fd0eb779a4

 

[_wb_]

I really like http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/59b8d3798a51d7b42872963c7cba7071


Its so clear I could instantly see all the symbols - so "mental mappings" are irrelevant.


Its a shame a very vocal minority will slap this down so they can run some 30+ year old software conveniently....


Have you double checked for language compatibility, how does it do?


Really nice clear layout, well done!

Language compatibility should be OK for German, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian.

German and French are as efficient as it realistically gets on a severely reduced QWERTY layout.

Spanish is still pretty good, though the ¿ would be hidden at Shift+? and the ¡ at some other location (Shift+| maybe? I don't know if that makes sense) and the acutes áéíóú are produced with a mashable dead acute at Meta+'.

Portuguese and Italian have to use the dead grave and/or dead tilde at Shift+` and Shift+~, which is slightly inconvenient (I imagine keyboard Meta to be sticky like Fn on the Pandora, and Shift+Meta to be sticky Shift+Meta).

Scandinavian and Balto-Slavic languages would need some remapping; one advantage of having only one Meta symbol per key is that you can map stuff at Shift-Meta, if you don't want to change the default symbols.

 

[_wb_]

This is how a Swiss keyboard looks like:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KB_Swiss.svg

It supports the four official languages of Switzerland: French, German, Italian and Romansh, by having dedicated keys for üäö and éèàç on Shift (or dedicated éèà and üäö on Shift, depending on your keyboard driver setting) and 5 dead diacritics (dedicated ¨ ^, grave on shift, tilde and acute on AltGr). It has ß unlabeled on AltGr+S (since that one is not needed in the Swiss variant of German).

Add ñ to that for Spanish and dead caron/breve, dead ogonek/cedilla/comma, dead dot/ring for Eastern European languages, and pretty much all of Europe is covered (except the Norwegian/Danish æ and ø, Hungarian double-umlaut, and of course the non-Latin script languages).

 

[Eight Bit]

I'll leave this minimalistic US lay-out here to see what people think about it.


Plenty of room for private binds / mappings I'd say.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/41f99bfc92a39d632638cfd53d8ca3d3

Maybe move Backslash and Pipe to J which allows you to slide the other pairs in that row one key to the right. Not a fan though of where comma and period are hidden or Tab but it is manageable. Two keyboard Meta's is a nice touch.

I had tab on L2 first but thought it be nicer to have the Fn pair with shift consistent. I tried to make the key positions resemble my big US keyboard as much as possible but on that I have the +, -, _ and = next to the numbers and I can't get that to fit without moving some F keys down a row.

I get what you mean about the backslash and pipe key. Maybe on L it would be better? Same column, just a row lower.


What I really like about this approach is that it's most probably the fastest to type on with Fn and Shift Fn layers.


I could fill the rest of the empty keys up with diacritics and stuff but yeah... I'd rather keep them unlabeled and thus flexible in that regard.

 

[_wb_]

I really like http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/59b8d3798a51d7b42872963c7cba7071


Its so clear I could instantly see all the symbols - so "mental mappings" are irrelevant.


Its a shame a very vocal minority will slap this down so they can run some 30+ year old software conveniently....


Have you double checked for language compatibility, how does it do?


Really nice clear layout, well done!

Here is a variant of the above, with the "international" stuff removed:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/27697161ab9c09c859c34e84d018e246

Other than that, it is exactly the same. Everything would do the same, it would just not be labeled.

I personally prefer to have the labels for üäößéèàçñ (and € °) printed, even if I don't really need them myself. But according to the big comparison table (columns J and K), it would be slightly better without those labels, mostly because comradekingu and _jr_ really don't like extra labels.

I would suggest to print the üäößéèàçñ€° in a small font, so it does not add too much visual clutter. Still I think it's useful to have them labeled, so you don't need a manual to find out where those letters/symbols are.

Advanced users can remap stuff themselves, tweak everything to exactly how they want it, and type blindly so they don't care about the labels. The labels printed on the keymat should not aim to maximize æsthetics for advanced users, but it should aim to be "good enough" for "almost everyone", without needing custom remappings.

 

[Saber]

I really like http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/59b8d3798a51d7b42872963c7cba7071


Its so clear I could instantly see all the symbols - so "mental mappings" are irrelevant.


Its a shame a very vocal minority will slap this down so they can run some 30+ year old software conveniently....


Have you double checked for language compatibility, how does it do?


Really nice clear layout, well done!

Here is a variant of the above, with the "international" stuff removed:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/27697161ab9c09c859c34e84d018e246

Other than that, it is exactly the same. Everything would do the same, it would just not be labeled.

I personally prefer to have the labels for üäößéèàçñ (and € °) printed, even if I don't really need them myself. But according to the big comparison table (columns J and K), it would be slightly better without those labels, mostly because comradekingu and _jr_ really don't like extra labels.

I would suggest to print the üäößéèàçñ€° in a small font, so it does not add too much visual clutter. Still I think it's useful to have them labeled, so you don't need a manual to find out where those letters/symbols are.

Advanced users can remap stuff themselves, tweak everything to exactly how they want it, and type blindly so they don't care about the labels. The labels printed on the keymat should not aim to maximize æsthetics for advanced users, but it should aim to be "good enough" for "almost everyone", without needing custom remappings.

Maybe you could jetison the Ñ(that was on the N key) and use this spot for something of more importance, since { } and [ ] are too far inward for comfort?

 

[comradekingu]

Mental map is _never_ irrelevant. It is _always_ what seperates a person who has never used a keyboard from someone who has.

Im both an advanced user and someone who speaks those languages you put letters up for. That doesnt mean i like the clutter.

A lot of those letters are hidden anyway, that works.

If language-support is only OK for the most important languages, then what you are really saying is its worse. Unless im missing some language other than German, spanish, italian, french and others, that i havent thought about.

Edit: There is every reason to believe that nearly all Anglo-users will only be troubled by seeing extra foreign letters. So you have disadvantaged half the usergroup, to reinstate not-good-enough support for the interlingual languages that matter.

 

[ible]

That's born out somewhat in the comparison matrix, where if you label the intl characters you get a lower score.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14mVNNzLhmhyA4sCIAPSoDv404xtctfLSiEMTtTlEzfw/edit

(Appeal to add your preferences if you haven't already.)

For what it's worth, one of _wb_'s non-intl layouts is in the lead:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/ccd83edbc04b3d8e7799960d29c61423

though I'm not sure if those darker labels are on or off the keyboard mat. (I don't think we get something in between, unless ED gets two paint colors.)

 

[_wb_]

I really like http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/59b8d3798a51d7b42872963c7cba7071


Its so clear I could instantly see all the symbols - so "mental mappings" are irrelevant.


Its a shame a very vocal minority will slap this down so they can run some 30+ year old software conveniently....


Have you double checked for language compatibility, how does it do?


Really nice clear layout, well done!

Here is a variant of the above, with the "international" stuff removed:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/27697161ab9c09c859c34e84d018e246

Other than that, it is exactly the same. Everything would do the same, it would just not be labeled.

I personally prefer to have the labels for üäößéèàçñ (and € °) printed, even if I don't really need them myself. But according to the big comparison table (columns J and K), it would be slightly better without those labels, mostly because comradekingu and _jr_ really don't like extra labels.

I would suggest to print the üäößéèàçñ€° in a small font, so it does not add too much visual clutter. Still I think it's useful to have them labeled, so you don't need a manual to find out where those letters/symbols are.

Advanced users can remap stuff themselves, tweak everything to exactly how they want it, and type blindly so they don't care about the labels. The labels printed on the keymat should not aim to maximize æsthetics for advanced users, but it should aim to be "good enough" for "almost everyone", without needing custom remappings.

Maybe you could jetison the Ñ(that was on the N key) and use this spot for something of more importance, since { } and [ ] are too far inward for comfort?

Like this? http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/b27512781b9633d89b088d83f3648b6f

 

[comradekingu]

Its not an efficient use of space. Its just as many symbols, but now there is a bombing-raid on the right half of the keyboard, with sporadic casaulties on the left.

Nevermind the no language-support, this isnt better for _English users_. Overall its only slightly better than the pandora-layout.

 

[codifies]

A mental map for a full sized keyboard is almost entirely irrelevant to something completely different that you use with (mainly) two thumbs rather than (almost) ten fingers...

Having keys visually easily distinguishable from each other makes keys very much easier to find and makes learning very much faster, enabling a different mental map to be established without difficulty

Additionally its clear layout caters to a wide range of languages without inconveniencing too much the major languages, which is a fair and usable compromise.

 

[Saber]

I really like http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/59b8d3798a51d7b42872963c7cba7071


Its so clear I could instantly see all the symbols - so "mental mappings" are irrelevant.


Its a shame a very vocal minority will slap this down so they can run some 30+ year old software conveniently....


Have you double checked for language compatibility, how does it do?


Really nice clear layout, well done!

Here is a variant of the above, with the "international" stuff removed:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/27697161ab9c09c859c34e84d018e246

Other than that, it is exactly the same. Everything would do the same, it would just not be labeled.

I personally prefer to have the labels for üäößéèàçñ (and € °) printed, even if I don't really need them myself. But according to the big comparison table (columns J and K), it would be slightly better without those labels, mostly because comradekingu and _jr_ really don't like extra labels.

I would suggest to print the üäößéèàçñ€° in a small font, so it does not add too much visual clutter. Still I think it's useful to have them labeled, so you don't need a manual to find out where those letters/symbols are.

Advanced users can remap stuff themselves, tweak everything to exactly how they want it, and type blindly so they don't care about the labels. The labels printed on the keymat should not aim to maximize æsthetics for advanced users, but it should aim to be "good enough" for "almost everyone", without needing custom remappings.

Maybe you could jetison the Ñ(that was on the N key) and use this spot for something of more importance, since { } and [ ] are too far inward for comfort?

Like this? http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/b27512781b9633d89b088d83f3648b6f

Yes, that's much better.

Possibly migrate ; and : to Meta + , and . so ' and " can be on the right(like B-Zar has them). Give some of these symbols their unseen DOSBox compatibility pairings, and add in that Super Meta key I was talking about to the left side where Meta is now(move Shift to where single and double quotes was and carry regular Meta to the left corner for good use). Then we can load up WERT, ASDF, and ZXCF if we must with locale letters and vowels. Borrow my Print Screen, Pause/Break, Scroll Lock idea if you'd like to put on Backspace. Whatever you think helps.