It's the keyboard layout.


No time now for a detailed answer, but

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/8e2043b67cc1b33225d69686868dc76d

could be a good idea indeed. Less mashable Meta-keys, but mashing is probably overrated.

My biggest problem with

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/1417479de73c9231d7e258fd0eb779a4

is the mix between ASCII punctuation and language-specific precomposed letters. Having them more separated/clustered seems better than having letters like äüößçñ as a Meta key on their 'natural' letter.
 
OK, if that's the motivation. We can probably cover all Latin-script languages with the available real estate. But no complaining about "clutter" then!
This is what I've been saying for a while now, why I became so keen on Grench's idea. Forget DosBox compatibility, it frees up space and helps with mental mapping.
Regarding clutter, I've never believed that three symbols was cluttered and have yet to see anyone present evidence that it is. It's been proven that we can get quite a few characters by only using 3 symbols per key with implicit upper/lowercase letters.
Agreed. The clutter police thing is far overblown. It may have been relevant on early layouts with 4 characters presented on each key, but we've progressed a LONG ways since then.


_wb_'s layout above and this one are very similar with some distinct differences. Is this still on track or have I deviated too far from the layout that you liked?

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/467f092b9169fe6c6b411baa5a39beeb
 
The dead stroke and double-acute on Meta+A is more or less redundant: as I discovered earlier today, if we have üö already precomposed, then the Meta+" can act as double-acute for the Hungarian űő, and the stroke in Ł is actually a Polish acute (kreska) so we can let it be produced by Meta+' L. So there is no more need for double-acute, and stroke is only useful for Đ and Ħ, but those are relatively obscure.


Dedicated primary PrintScreen and Pause feels like a bit of a waste, and why no more primary Esc?


I prefer a dedicated primary Tab.


F11 and F12 up top feels more 'correct' than down below, though a mashable F11 to toggle fullscreen is quite nice.
Redundant diacritics?:

The two diacritics on the A key may very well be overkill, but they complete the set. If they truly are redundant, then I'm sure we could find something else to put on the A key's Fn layer. That isn't a primary design piece.

Tab or `~ as a primary key?:

Having `~ on a primary key IS a primary design piece. ` and ~ are both used in Linux command line.  That this also frees them up for consistent Diacritic use is a convenient bonus.  Embedding ~ at Fn+shift layer on the left side of a keyboard with the Fn key on the left makes ~ require shoulder buttons or funky left thumb and a left finger combo desktop typing.  This also reduces the number of US keyboard symbols that are present in the Fn+shift layer.

With Fn on the left and space on the right, Tab can live on the space bar without any serious pain. Multiple tabs can be entered easily. Tab being a 'wide space' and having been there on the Pandora makes sense - though it is MUCH easier to use on this layout than it was on the Pandora (left Fn).

Yes, this is a trade-off.  I think it's a well thought out one.

Top layer PrtSc and Pause:


Dedicated PrintScreen and Pause make sense to have (present on a normal keyboard). Why? Because these two keys are prone to use with additional modifiers (Alt+PrtSc screen captures current foreground app) (Ctrl+Pause/Break is used as an interrupt in many programs and editors). Subjecting them to the Fn or shift+Fn layer then using them with additional Alt and Ctrl modifiers may be more than the users want to sort out.  Added bonus, 'Pause' goes nicely with Start and Select for gaming - this puts it in a nice spot to reach from the nubs.

Esc on Fn layer:


Esc is an important key, but rarely used without great forethought. It can live on the Fn layer. That same key, though, has the hardware menu selection (≡) tied to it. I.e. press the key and it pulls up the menu with controls for the radios, USB ports, HDMI, etc. It's intended to be a configuration shortcut.

F11 and F12 bottom row left:


F11 and F12 look like an afterthought in EITHER position (up top OR in keys area). If we wanted them to look like they belong, they would have to take the only 12 button row in the main keyboard area. I tried that and the idea was collectively shat on. Having it where it is easy to toggle full screen is about as good as it gets with these - i.e. some added function.

There were a few other concepts that I'm exploring in this layout.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/467f092b9169fe6c6b411baa5a39beeb

Power button behavior:


"Power" button normal use is wake/standby. This is common to most of these layouts


Logically Fn+ power button should be Shutdown.

Ideally simply pressing the button would 'power on' and/or 'wake', regardless of state.

Holding Fn and power for 3+ seconds together should be a 'Hard' shutdown.

Back Light button behavior:

No modifier press is screen brightness up.

Shift+ press is screen brightness down.

Fn+ press is keyboard brightness up.

Fn+shift+press is keyboard brightness down.

Change in how Alt/Start, Ctrl/Select are labeled:

In the spirit of "call it what it IS" I decided that the primary labels for these should be Alt(Gr) and Ctrl with small labels for Start and Select.  Frankly, they're used far more as Alt and Ctrl than they are in the few emulators and games that are actually mapped to use them as Start/Select.  So, I want to label the computer function of the key primary and the, "Only works in some applications," label secondary.

Insert and Delete key's 'game letter' labels:

People have toyed with +,-, Greek, (z),© and likely other options.

If they're going to be Insert and Delete, why not give them lettered labels (I) and (D) to go with the (X) (Y) (A) ( B) set?

None of these were done haphazard or without reason.
 
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I like the progress, and I have a feeling ED wants only one meta label per key. (It would be nice to know his preferences, but on the other hand he didn't ask us to work on this either...)


My comments/concerns with _wb_'s latest and greatest:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/448795011aec0eda1781efb5cd9ea44f
Okay, that's the definitive one then. Really didn't know for sure anymore.

As for the recurring discussion about Tab, a multitude have voiced strong approval for a dedicated Tab key.  
 
I like the progress, and I have a feeling ED wants only one meta label per key. (It would be nice to know his preferences, but on the other hand he didn't ask us to work on this either...)


My comments/concerns with _wb_'s latest and greatest:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/448795011aec0eda1781efb5cd9ea44f
Okay, that's the definitive one then. Really didn't know for sure anymore.

That's why we have the "Final keyboard layout proposals" thread: http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/17568-final-keyboard-layout-proposals//URL]

Redundant diacritics?:


The two diacritics on the A key may very well be overkill, but they complete the set. If they truly are redundant, then I'm sure we could find something else to put on the A key's Fn layer. That isn't a primary design piece.

I don't think it is possible nor desireable to really "complete the set" of diacritics. We could still add:

  •   ̏ double grave ("used in scholarly discussions of the Croatian, Serbian, and sometimes Slovene languages. It is also used in the International Phonetic Alphabet." says Wikipedia)
  • ˘  breve (now I let the dead caron produce ğ for Turkish and ă for Romanian, instead of ǧ ǎ which are not used in any major living languages, but if you want to be able to write ǧ instead of ğ (e.g. you are one of the 400 speakers of Skolt Sami), then caron and breve have to be split)
  •   ̑ inverted breve (used in the IPA)
  • ◌̡ ◌̢ ◌̉ all kinds of hooks, mostly for Vietnamese and some African languages
  • ◌̑ horn, for Vietnamese
  • ◌̄ macron, for Latvian and Lithuanian
  • ◌̦ comma, to distinguish the Turkish Ş from the Romanian Ș

At some point it makes no sense anymore to use the dead diacritics approach :)

Tab or `~ as a primary key?:


Having `~ on a primary key IS a primary design piece. ` and ~ are both used in Linux command line.  That this also frees them up for consistent Diacritic use is a convenient bonus.  Embedding ~ at Fn+shift layer on the left side of a keyboard with the Fn key on the left makes ~ require shoulder buttons or funky left thumb and a left finger combo desktop typing.  This also reduces the number of US keyboard symbols that are present in the Fn+shift layer.


With Fn on the left and space on the right, Tab can live on the space bar without any serious pain. Multiple tabs can be entered easily. Tab being a 'wide space' and having been there on the Pandora makes sense - though it is MUCH easier to use on this layout than it was on the Pandora (left Fn).


Yes, this is a trade-off.  I think it's a well thought out one.

I know the trade-off. I just think it is giving away too much (dedicated Tab) in return for too little: ` and ~ are among the least important symbols for coding, and they are not used at all in natural language. There are many other keys that would be better to have as dedicated keys, e.g. /? or ;:.

` is not used on the command line at all, ~ is used but I wouldn't overestimate its importance either: I think Tab / - | = > <  are more important on the command line, roughly in that order.

Top layer PrtSc and Pause:


Dedicated PrintScreen and Pause make sense to have (present on a normal keyboard). Why? Because these two keys are prone to use with additional modifiers (Alt+PrtSc screen captures current foreground app) (Ctrl+Pause/Break is used as an interrupt in many programs and editors). Subjecting them to the Fn or shift+Fn layer then using them with additional Alt and Ctrl modifiers may be more than the users want to sort out.  Added bonus, 'Pause' goes nicely with Start and Select for gaming - this puts it in a nice spot to reach from the nubs.

We do the same thing with the F-keys, it should not really be a problem. What about Ctrl-plus/minus to zoom in/out in many programs? That would be Shift-Fn-Ctrl-P. No problem if you use the shoulder modifiers, tricky otherwise.

Esc on Fn layer:


Esc is an important key, but rarely used without great forethought. It can live on the Fn layer. That same key, though, has the hardware menu selection (≡) tied to it. I.e. press the key and it pulls up the menu with controls for the radios, USB ports, HDMI, etc. It's intended to be a configuration shortcut.
I don't know if e.g. for vi users Esc is "rarely used without great forethought".

F11 and F12 bottom row left:


F11 and F12 look like an afterthought in EITHER position (up top OR in keys area). If we wanted them to look like they belong, they would have to take the only 12 button row in the main keyboard area. I tried that and the idea was collectively shat on. Having it where it is easy to toggle full screen is about as good as it gets with these - i.e. some added function.
I agree that there is no way in which we can put all F-keys somewhere such that it look like they belong there (even all-in-a-row on the QWERTY row is not really the normal spot: they should be above the number row, not below it). Still, top-right for F11, F12 is "more correct" than bottom-left.

There were a few other concepts that I'm exploring in this layout.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/467f092b9169fe6c6b411baa5a39beeb

Power button behavior:


"Power" button normal use is wake/standby. This is common to most of these layouts


Logically Fn+ power button should be Shutdown.


Ideally simply pressing the button would 'power on' and/or 'wake', regardless of state.


Holding Fn and power for 3+ seconds together should be a 'Hard' shutdown.

Back Light button behavior:


No modifier press is screen brightness up.


Shift+ press is screen brightness down.


Fn+ press is keyboard brightness up.


Fn+shift+press is keyboard brightness down.

Change in how Alt/Start, Ctrl/Select are labeled:


In the spirit of "call it what it IS" I decided that the primary labels for these should be Alt(Gr) and Ctrl with small labels for Start and Select.  Frankly, they're used far more as Alt and Ctrl than they are in the few emulators and games that are actually mapped to use them as Start/Select.  So, I want to label the computer function of the key primary and the, "Only works in some applications," label secondary.

Insert and Delete key's 'game letter' labels:


People have toyed with +,-, Greek, (z),© and likely other options.


If they're going to be Insert and Delete, why not give them lettered labels (I) and (D) to go with the (X) (Y) (A) ( B) set?


None of these were done haphazard or without reason.
I would expect that pressing the power button shows a menu which lets you choose what to do: shutdown, reboot, hibernate, lock.

We can sort out how it behaves later, but in terms of labeling, I don't think it needs any other label than just the power symbol.

Back light button: yes, that sounds good. Another option would be to let it cycle between a configurable set of brightness levels (I typically only really use min and max).

Labeling START and SELECT with Alt/Ctrl prominently and START/SELECT as small labels is a good idea. I wouldn't add the "(Gr)" though, since I think the logical thing would be to use the shoulder modifier as AltGr (for efficiency).
 
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I like the progress, and I have a feeling ED wants only one meta label per key. (It would be nice to know his preferences, but on the other hand he didn't ask us to work on this either...)


My comments/concerns with _wb_'s latest and greatest:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/448795011aec0eda1781efb5cd9ea44f


1. I like the symmetry between {}[]/|\. To me it really helps guide the eyes towards the symbols. In my own layouts I also try to have patterns, though I have also been trying to keep things like ü on Meta+U.


2. I appreciate the "breakthroughs" on diacritics. I think we can all benefit from them, especially if we get the Neelix(?)-suggested keyboard Mea+GUI popup going.
Thanks!

3. At one point I thought about switching = and +, so there's a symmetry of (-=+). I think it's a net gain for the code-combos score. (It lowers i++, but gains -= and increases /=.) Here's an alternative rearrangement of yours which increases the code combos quite a bit, though it may look a little less symmetric to some:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/73a832d97d3d555a888dee767649badb


(Nice subtle symmetries: operator opposites are vertically two keys apart.)
I see your points and I like the subtle symmetries (and the fact that * + / - are in one 'column'), but I prefer to have - and + next to eachother, for programs where they're used for something like zooming in and out or adjusting something. Also maybe for the Compose sequence to produce ±. Minus on the bottom row deviates quite a bit from its expected position.

The symmetry -=+ makes sense in the same way as <=> makes sense. Still I prefer to have -+ and <> as neighbor-pairs.

4. Concern: I would prefer keyboard Meta and Shift to be on the right (switching places with , and .), for the following reasons. This has a nice symmetry of putting all diacritics on the left side of the board. It also makes it possible to easily do a shift+meta+button for any key on the left side of the keyboard, which would be the more common side of the keyboard to do both modifiers on. (Like with Shift+Meta+Tab for Grave, and Shift+Meta+F for Ä.) It would also raise the code combo score (you get <= and >= for free).
You are right, Shift and Meta on the right makes more sense. Comma and period on the left is not the normal position, but 1) it's the same as on the Pandora, 2) it means they can be on the same row, eliminating the ugly jagged positioning (especially ugly for < >), 3) it puts the diacritics together like you say, and 4) it makes ' " look less out of place.

For people who don't use shoulder buttons, it makes the coding symbols slightly less practical (you have to use sticky Meta and then symbol, both with right thumb, while if Meta is on the left, both thumbs can be used). But I suspect that most coders will prefer to use the shoulder button modifiers anyway.

For natural language, Shift on the right makes sense because QWERTY is left-biased. And for diacritics that require Shift+Meta (grave, tilde, umlaut, caron, circumflex) and for capital version of the precomposed Ü Ö Ä ẞ É È À Ç Ñ it helps too, like you said.

5. Very small concern: { Enter is a very painful code-combo, so you penalize C/C++ peeps ;) .
It is not that painful. While Y is slightly on the right so you would normally use right thumb, it should be rather easy to hit it with left thumb. After all, it is only half a key away from the center.

In http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/8e2043b67cc1b33225d69686868dc76dI think ?_=;: could be moved around and I'm not sure which way I like best.
 
Hey this layout is awesome! (Haven't really examined a layout since Grench's initial dosbox one.)


You guys have done an amazing job... it's wonderfully to see a lot of the best concepts each of you championing coming together so elegantly.


Also, the tone of this thread the last week or so has really made me proud of this community. Admittedly I've still been skimming, but after this layout I'm now keen to check out the other front runners.


It's feeling close. How many are there now?


I could get behind this layout, but maybe the others are just as good?


Love the number and F1-12 implementation.


Like that most of my fave diacritics are easily visible and reachable for making smiley faces (yes, that's almost all I'll use them for)


I like that the layout looks pretty sleek and *efficient*.


There are more good points, but I want to compare the others first.
 
Just because you can't think of any doesn't mean there aren't others... Oolite was another one that ptitseb had to fix.
Just because I can't think of any doesn't mean there aren't others... Oolite was another one that ptitseb had to port.

There FTFY...

Software is very much easier to change than hardware thats been forced to cater to dubious corner cases
 
Just because you can't think of any doesn't mean there aren't others... Oolite was another one that ptitseb had to fix.
Just because I can't think of any doesn't mean there aren't others... Oolite was another one that ptitseb had to port.

There FTFY...

Software is very much easier to change than hardware thats been forced to cater to dubious corner cases
Also, I suppose we could code a "generic compatibility mode" which lets the keyboard behave completely like a standard US-QWERTY IBM-PC keyboard: that is, the Meta keypresses are hidden, and if you press e.g. Meta+Y for {, then it 'fakes' Shift+[ scancodes, etc. That would solve the problem for all lazy ports.
 
Your layouts change hourly. Hard to keep track of them when they aren't concurrently posted in the Final Keyboard Layout Proposals thread which you linked(and where mine is also located BTW).

I dislike where you have underscore, the F11 and F12 pair, and I really don't like that the main modifier on the keyboard is placed on the same side as the primary used symbols : ; - + = / { [ ] }. I've said this many times now that not everyone will use the shoulder Fn/Meta modifier with the keyboard.  
 
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What's the easiest way for me to find all the contenders?


Or is that almost impossible until fluctuations have stabilized... There are so many I just didn't bother to look at, assuming there would just be a new one the next day.
 
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Your layouts change hourly. Hard to keep track of them when they aren't concurrently posted in the Final Keyboard Layout Proposals thread which you linked(and where mine is also located BTW).
Release early, release often, then reap the benefit of feedback and new ideas.

You can't put down a design then not evolve it or it just becomes dogma much as the DosBox meme that has taken up way more energy than the issue deserves.

I think _wb_ had come up with by far the best compromise with the best clarity, probably because he had modified previous designs on peoples feedback.
 
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Your layouts change hourly. Hard to keep track of them when they aren't concurrently posted in the Final Keyboard Layout Proposals thread which you linked(and where mine is also located BTW).

I dislike where you have underscore, the F11 and F12 pair, and I really don't like that the main modifier on the keyboard is placed on the same side as the primary used symbols : ; - + = / { [ ] }. I've said this many times now that not everyone will use the shoulder Fn/Meta modifier with the keyboard.  
What exactly is it that you dislike about where I have underscore, F11 and F12?

For typing without shoulder buttons, it is indeed slightly more practical to have the modifier on the opposite side from the modified key. That means that in my layout, :;-+=?[]{}\|/ are slightly harder to do, while in your layout, üöäß~`\ F11 F12 and the 3 diacritics are slightly harder to do. In your layout, CapsLock, Esc, = - + _ ' " { } ; : / ? [ ] are on the "easy" side, while in my layout, `~°€ üöäß éèàçñ and the 6 diacritics are on the "easy" side.

I don't have an explicit CapsLock (I think it's not needed), I have a dedicated Esc key elsewhere, and ' " is a dedicated key in my layout.

I think that if you don't use shoulder buttons, then:

  • natural language is easier to input on my layout than on your layout: for English it's easier because of the dedicated apostrophe/quote, for German it's easier because üöäß are slightly easier to type, for French and Portuguese it's easier because my layout has a dedicated ç (1 key instead of a 3-key Compose sequence) and dedicated éèà (1 key instead of a 2-key dead diacritic combo), for Spanish it's easier because my layout has a dedicated ñ (instead of a very inefficient 3-key Compose sequence which lets the right thumb travel a lot).
  • coding/command line stuff is easier to input on your layout than on mine, provided that you know where to find the symbols you need (they are in pretty non-standard locations in your layout)
 
Why is it a compromise at all? Can you explain?

From my point of view its a encumbrance for English users, an impediment for most international users, and flat out scary for new users.

I dont understand the benefit with regard to making it a comprimise.

At some point it makes no sense anymore to use the dead diacritics approach :)

Since you have diactrics only, that point is right before you get to the most important international/interlingual languages. Unless you ramp up the production of dutch users, that remains the case.
 
What's the easiest way for me to find all the contenders?


Or is that almost impossible until fluctuations have stabilized... There are so many I just didn't bother to look at, assuming there would just be a new one the next day.
http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/17568-final-keyboard-layout-proposals//URL]

Though it's not synchronized exactly with this thread.  :)
Synchronized it :)

Another way to get an overview of the different proposals is by looking at the big comparison table:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14mVNNzLhmhyA4sCIAPSoDv404xtctfLSiEMTtTlEzfw/edit?usp=sharing

There are links to the different proposals in the second row of that table.
 
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Why is it a compromise at all? Can you explain?

From my point of view its a encumbrance for English users, an impediment for most international users, and flat out scary for new users.

I dont understand the benefit with regard to making it a comprimise.

At some point it makes no sense anymore to use the dead diacritics approach :)

Since you have diactrics only, that point is right before you get to the most important international/interlingual languages. Unless you ramp up the production of dutch users, that remains the case.
I was talking about obscure dead diacritics like Vietnamese hooks and horns. It does make a lot of sense to have dead acute/grave/circumflex/umlaut, and probably also caron/cedilla/tilde.

When writing a Spanish, you don't want five dedicated keys for áéíóú, you want to have just one dedicated dead acute. Same with the circumflex in French, or the grave in Italian. Don't act as if dead diacritics is just something for Dutch users.
 
Thats not what i said though. I said that dead-diactrics only, fails before you consider the most important international/interlingual languages.

The first language you are able to support with only dead-diactrics, is dutch, but that is 4th or 5th down the list, and is covered in smilar fashion anyway.

Dedicated keys reign supreme before then. Im not saying they do the work alone, but without them, you dont have support.

Its a toss-up between dedicated diactrics and hidden AltGr-layer for accentuation, im saying both. However ED says no to printed dedicated diactrics by default. So it can only be where its supposed to be, and hidden.

I am unsure why ED wants 3 modifiers rather than 4, but lets hope its because he doesnt want 4 prints per key. As such, AltGr saves the day, and has no conflict at all with convention or implementing F-keys with Fn.

Even though more obscure languages arent economically viable, it makes sense to include US-style diactrics as a base-level, and an AltGr, because then you cover everything.
 
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I've said this many times now that not everyone will use the shoulder Fn/Meta modifier with the keyboard.
I honestly don't understand why they wouldn't, if the device is held in the hands.  Frankly if people want to make things difficult for themselves by not taking advantage of all the available modifier buttons that's their own lookout.  

Once the device is on a dock or desktop the ergonomics change and having the modifier on the same side of the keyboard is less of an issue.

New users will of course need to be educated, and  I think a good way to make it known to new users that the modifiers are on the shoulder buttons  (and that home, end, etc are on the gaming buttons) is  by putting up a key map as the default wallpaper.

- Neelix
 
I honestly don't understand why they wouldn't,
[use shoulder buttons]  [my addition for clarity]

My hands/fingers are quite long unless the Pyra is quite different in size then it will also be uncomfortable (even painful long term) to use the keyboard AND shoulder buttons at the same time.  You might find them convenient but you can't assume that everyone else without exception would find it desirable or even comfortable...
 
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