Idea to break the impasse

[Marycontrary]

Order confirmed December 03, 2009 7:59am. Paid via google checkout on Dec 09, 2009  This email also states it's a first batch preorder. On May 25, 2010 I asked what my queue poition was and they responded it was approximately 3100-3200.

Thanks for your kind response Neelix. What I am wondering is could I pay the difference between the amount I paid and what the price is for the rebirth edition.  I paid $330 for the pandora and $19.99 for tv out plus air shipping of $24. If a rebirth is $479 could I apply the $350 towards a rebirth and pay the difference of $129 (and forget about the tv out)? That would be a more reasonable price for me and I would be willing to round up to $150. I'm assuming there is some profit for Pandora in selling the rebirth at $479 and I'm willing to add another $20 profit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a rebirth is what I would end up with by waiting forever anyway.

That would be a win for me and hopefully a win for pandora. I would like to order from the retailer in the USA and I can't tell if that shop is participating like Ed is in trying to clear Craigs mess. If the retailer in the USA isn't participating in the project similarly to Ed, then I would have no problems doing this through Ed. I would be a happy camper, and If I like the rebirth and wish to buy another 1ghz I would do so without my anger and bitterness getting in the way.

Did any of that make sense?

We are not normal people in this household. I recently soldered a new capacitor into the computer I'm using today by robbing an older DLP HDTV with a dead bulb and shattered color wheel of it's matching capacitor. I also found the correct capacitors in it to rebuild a failed hd monitor that I just loved (it has a much higher native rez than lcd hd monitors). I build and repair computers as well as clean viruses and repair windows operating systems. I take in old broken computers, fix them up and give them to needy kids in the neighborhood. My husband is handy as well and can fabricate some mechanical parts (on a small scale) at his job. If you put the parts in a box, perhaps someone like me could build their own. Perhaps offer it as a build your own kit. I also mod gaming systems and still mod the original xbox for people pretty regularly. The people who have me mod for them would want a pandora, I just know it!

 

[Kumaki]

Hummm...where in the United states are you?

I have a bunch of broken/half working PC's and if you were able to pick them up and work with them...seeing as they would go to needy neighborhood kids...I wouldn't charge a cent for them.

I also used to rebuild computers, but I kinda quit doing it, as it was only a hooby, anyway. This is all older equipment, but still fairly usable.

 

[Marycontrary]

I am sorry my attitude sucks. I know the people on the forums are doing their best as well as Ed. You are asking that I continue to have faith and assume there is no fraud or bait and switch going on. That is very hard to do when all I have to rely on is assumptions. As a newcomer to the forums and with the new website, it is so hard to piece together a clear picture of what is going on and what options are available.

A major part of my attitude problem is lack of clear communication and a complete abandonment. I can't even get a generic response from my emails to Craigs shop. If he is still paying Jacquelyn, and he isn't doing any Pandora shipments, she could at least generate an email to let me know they are still alive. The icing on the cake was the whole grammer thing and closing of a thread because people were evidently tired of the thread and had become grammer and spelling nazi's. A huge part of me wanted to ruin the pandora party for all when that thread deteriorated to nitpicking. I have read posts that refer to Americans being overly sensitive and drama queens who's judicial system is messed up to the point where Pandora wouldn't stand a chance in court (paraphrasing here). So, in a nut shell I feel screwed AND insulted.

Thanks to the people who respond kindly and offer support. Thank you Ed for taking time to respond to me and offering up what you do know. I understand this isn't your responsibility.

 

[Kumaki]

I don't think your attitude sucks. I think it is perfectly natural for you to feel as you do. Putting myself in your shoes, I'd probably feel the same way you do. Alas, many people do not seem to have the ability or inclination to put themselves in someone else's shoes.

I really feel bad for you and other waiting folks, and I wish there was something I could do to help, but my finances are extremely limited...I have my own company, with one client...who is quitting me next month. He never was a permanent client anyway, my job was to starighten up the mess someone else had left behind...long story.

But I certainly can't afford to make weekly or even one-time donations...as some here have, and continue to do. But I DID offer up a possible solution, one which would get me a second, backup Pandy...at a slight;y cheaper price (understanding it would be on wait) if the money generated from that sale would then be used to get someone else off the long queue...and then, since I already HAVE one Pandy...I would not mind going to the very back of the queue.

My idea would thus recycle the queue, so that this way, you'd have a different, shorter queue of people who hadn't been waiting quite as long. It would buy time. But it would have to be at a discounted price, because nobody would place a WAIT order for the same price as a NOW order, which they could get.

I just do not know how much profit margin there is on a Pandy...so how much could be discounted.

BUT it seems to me that...and I'm just pulling figures out of thin air, these have no bearing on actual reality...

If I buy a NOW unit for $500....which cost Pandora $400 to make....there is $100 profit.

So it takes four sales like that...to fund one user on the waiting list.

If I buy a WAIT unit...at, say, $450...there's STILL $50 profit for Pandy...but, because they don't have to ship mine right away, as I placed a WAIT order...the entire $450 that just came in...could be used to get a waiting person their Pandy...

HENCE...one WAIT order like mine...would clear one person...

WHEREAS...it would take FOUR "NOW" orders to clear that same one person.

Now, the way this works is this:

You have Queue A - all the original pre-orders.

You have Queue B - this is the new WAIT orders as I suggest above.

NOBODY on Queue B gets their unit until Queue A has been all served.

Everyone on Queue B...will have been waiting far less time than those who are on Queue A...plus, those on Queue B...already HAVE one Pandy, and are looking to get a second one...so they don't necessarily mind waiting.

As I see it...with this solution, everyone wins.

Queue A gets cleared.

Person on Queue B gets a cheaper price on a second Pandy.

Pandora still makes SOME money on the sale to Queue B.

There is always the risk, if you're on Queue B...you might not get one for a year or more...or ever (although I think that is unlikely)

But a person on Queue B...woudl not mind a yearlong wait, since they already have one.

I just don't see any loser to my proposed idea...if there's enough people who want to do it. As I said before, it does not SOLVE the problem of a queue but it DOES "recycle" the queue and buys some time for everyone to get things straightened out and for everyone involved to get back on their feet.

I do not know how feasible my idea is...or if it is feasible at all, but it seems like it should be. And at least I'm TRYING to come up with creative solutions!

 

[Neelix]

Order confirmed December 03, 2009 7:59am. Paid via google checkout on Dec 09, 2009  This email also states it's a first batch preorder. On May 25, 2010 I asked what my queue poition was and they responded it was approximately 3100-3200.

 Given that the majority of the pre-orders were placed within the first few days in 2008, I would guesstimate that this puts you closer to the end of the queue than the beginning I'm afraid. Keep in mind though that I have no real data to go off.

Thanks for your kind response Neelix. What I am wondering is could I pay the difference between the amount I paid and what the price is for the rebirth edition.  I paid $330 for the pandora and $19.99 for tv out plus air shipping of $24. If a rebirth is $479 could I apply the $350 towards a rebirth and pay the difference of $129 (and forget about the tv out)? That would be a more reasonable price for me and I would be willing to round up to $150. I'm assuming there is some profit for Pandora in selling the rebirth at $479 and I'm willing to add another $20 profit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a rebirth is what I would end up with by waiting forever anyway.

That would be a win for me and hopefully a win for pandora. I would like to order from the retailer in the USA and I can't tell if that shop is participating like Ed is in trying to clear Craigs mess. If the retailer in the USA isn't participating in the project similarly to Ed, then I would have no problems doing this through Ed. I would be a happy camper, and If I like the rebirth and wish to buy another 1ghz I would do so without my anger and bitterness getting in the way.

Did any of that make sense?

Does it make sense? yes it does. Whether it would be feasible is another matter. This is still pretty close to the price point I had in mind when I was referring to 'the price those with pre-orders would consider fair' in my last post. That being said I'll leave this one for ED and/or Link for a more definitive answer.

Personally I think your best option might be to wait until the refurbished Circuit Co units start to become available then purchase one of those from stock to tide you over. That way you'd be paying somewhat less than the upgrade cost, (if I understand the intended pricing correctly) and you'd end up with a spare unit for the hubby to use once your original order is fulfilled.

We are not normal people in this household. I recently soldered a new capacitor into the computer I'm using today by robbing an older DLP HDTV with a dead bulb and shattered color wheel of it's matching capacitor. I also found the correct capacitors in it to rebuild a failed hd monitor that I just loved (it has a much higher native rez than lcd hd monitors). I build and repair computers as well as clean viruses and repair windows operating systems. I take in old broken computers, fix them up and give them to needy kids in the neighborhood. My husband is handy as well and can fabricate some mechanical parts (on a small scale) at his job. If you put the parts in a box, perhaps someone like me could build their own. Perhaps offer it as a build your own kit. I also mod gaming systems and still mod the original xbox for people pretty regularly. The people who have me mod for them would want a pandora, I just know it!

And I believe it! It certainly sounds like this device would be right up your alley. I'd love to see what you can contribute once you have a unit to play with.

I wish you the best of luck in any case.

- Neelix

 

[Marycontrary]

Hummm...where in the United states are you?


I have a bunch of broken/half working PC's and if you were able to pick them up and work with them...seeing as they would go to needy neighborhood kids...I wouldn't charge a cent for them.


I also used to rebuild computers, but I kinda quit doing it, as it was only a hooby, anyway. This is all older equipment, but still fairly usable.

I'm in Omaha, Nebraska. It's a hobby for me as well. I fix things for friends and friends of friends. I have never charged for repairs, I just ask that people pay it forward. I also hate the thought of old stuff being tossed to a landfill because no one ever disposes of old computers properly. I have had some computers dropped off that literally had nothing wrong with them except a nasty virus or failed hard drive. I live in a school district where the wealthiest people live, but also some really low income neighborhoods too. So many of my kids classmates were attending school while their families lived in church basements or in cars, while most of their classmates were driving bmw's to school. These less fortunate kids were so happy to have a computer of their own, even if it did mean learning linux.

I have developed degenerative disk disease which has caused a great deal of pain. I have had some experimental surgery which helped for a while, but now disks are failing like a domino effect. My upper extremeties are weak due to nerve injury and I no longer able to do the job I did for 30 years. My hobbies keep me occupied and since I'm free no one complains if I take my time getting things done. I like to think there is still something useful in me. I also developed atrial fibrillation which really sucks and kind of pushed me into a dark depression. I have outlived my siblings and I am only 55 and that has left me feeling that I will die soon. As negaive as I am on these forums, I do wish to have a positive impact in peoples lives. I am very fortunate to have a supportive husband, who encourages me in everything I choose to do...or not do. I am not on any sort of disability, although I suspect I would qualify. I just want to be productive somehow.

Please forgive me if I have been out of line on these forums. I have bad days where i'm just pissy.

 

[klapse]

Please forgive me if I have been out of line on these forums. I have bad days where i'm just pissy.

*HUG*

 

[Kumaki]

Mary, sounds like you need a hug.

I can relate to depression, being a lifelong sufferer myself. And I, too, am on disability, the one client my company has was never enough to pay me even close to a salary, let alone enough to get me off disability. But I see it as my only real option for getting off disability. My medical conditions are such that working from home is my only really viable option, since I have to constantly go to doctors.

Since most of my working career had been in insurance and in processing claims, doing medical billing and coding (which can be done from home) seemed a natural - I'd just be on the other side of the claims from where I HAD been...approving/denying the incoming claims - rather than I am now, submitting them.

The idea is to visut the docs once a week to pick up the work...and then do it from home on my own schedule, which can be worked around my doctor appointments. Many is the time I have burned the midnight oil to get work done, and it is something I don't mind...the night is peaceful, anyway.

Of course, I would never be opposed to servicing a doctor even out of state, where they could fax me their Superbills. But it's a matter of finding me a few clients. If I could get two or three doctors onboard, I could probably earn enough to give up the disability...which I'd truly love to be able to do...self-sufficiency is certainly better for the morale and self-esteem, ya know it?

Anyway, I'm in Pennsylvania, so a trip to Nebraska to drop off computer stuff would not be very feasible. Like you, I used to build my own systems out of other people's scraps...use scraps to build computers for friends...or repair computers of friends. If there was some way to get the stuff to you, I'd happily do so...I'd certainly rather see the stuff I have being used to help others, rather than sitting here gathering dust.

Last time I had a bunch of stuff I didn't need, a friend was running a project that was a "computer boat" going to Africa. Once the ship was filled up with all manner of computer stuff, broken and working...it went to Africa, and was used to help them get some computers, which was nice...but, since then, no new project has been started by this guy.

Anyway, I'm rambling now. But I really hope some sort of solution is found that enables you to get a Pandy soon!

 

[Stephane Hockenhull]

ever heard of "bait and switch" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait-and-switch ?


and that is considered a fraud even when the customer did not give money in advance.

Your specific accusation of fraud is therefore off base and possibly libellous.

I paid money, received nothing, and I'm asked for almost the same amount ( double price total! ) in order to (supposedly) finally get the Pandora I ordered.

you judge.

the question Seeeejaaaay asked is:

why are people so against upgrading to 1ghz units?

 

[EssoAir]

We are not normal people in this household. I recently soldered a new capacitor into the computer I'm using today by robbing an older DLP HDTV with a dead bulb and shattered color wheel of it's matching capacitor. I also found the correct capacitors in it to rebuild a failed hd monitor that I just loved (it has a much higher native rez than lcd hd monitors). I build and repair computers as well as clean viruses and repair windows operating systems. I take in old broken computers, fix them up and give them to needy kids in the neighborhood. My husband is handy as well and can fabricate some mechanical parts (on a small scale) at his job. If you put the parts in a box, perhaps someone like me could build their own. Perhaps offer it as a build your own kit. I also mod gaming systems and still mod the original xbox for people pretty regularly. The people who have me mod for them would want a pandora, I just know it!

Brag much?

Anyway, I'd just like to point out that with most large companies, publicly complaining usually lets you get what you want. However, with a product like the Pandora split between multiple companies and absolutely no PR team, this rule doesnt really apply. I applaud ED for always being there for everyone however, he can't work magic.


As for your compromise, it sounds reasonable on the surface, but I would (personally) rather everyone pay the stated ammount in hopes the companies will have more money to in turn deliver the preorder que.


I am sorry for your difficulties in life. Your's seem to be worse than most. Are you a programmer? Because if not, it would be kind of fun if someone wrote a program for your pandora (when you recieve it) specifically to your liking.


I'm in the process of learning Java, but I'm not really "there" yet. However, maybe by the time you get your OP I could make something for you. Anything come to mind?

 

[Binky]

Anyway, I'd just like to point out that with most large companies, publicly complaining usually lets you get what you want. However, with a product like the Pandora split between multiple companies and absolutely no PR team, this rule doesnt really apply. I applaud ED for always being there for everyone however, he can't work magic.

This is true.

The problem isn't simply lame customer service, the problem is no money to pay refunds.

ED's shop is making slow profits, and using them to pay for shipping old preorders - Craig is uncommunicative and probably broke.

Nobody is happy with the current situation - so complaining won't help.

People who've been hurt (financially or otherwise) by the seemingly endless chain of crises are in a horrible position. I can understand the frustration at having neither a Pandora nor ones money back, but its important  that if you think you've been messed up by the pandora project, you consider the mess ED and Craig are in.

The situation sucks, but there isn't a straightforward solution

If fraud were being committed, then its one of the least profitable I've ever heard of!

 

[Kumaki]

Fraud implies intent to deceive or swindle.

I don't think that applies in this case.

 

[EssoAir]

Fraud implies intent to deceive or swindle.


I don't think that applies in this case.

Fraud implies absolutely nothing at all. Fraud is a word with a definition. Whatever connotations you may have are not implicit, they are inferred. 

 

[Binky]

fraud  (frôd)n.

1. A deception deliberately practised in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.

 

[Marycontrary]

We are not normal people in this household. I recently soldered a new capacitor into the computer I'm using today by robbing an older DLP HDTV with a dead bulb and shattered color wheel of it's matching capacitor. I also found the correct capacitors in it to rebuild a failed hd monitor that I just loved (it has a much higher native rez than lcd hd monitors). I build and repair computers as well as clean viruses and repair windows operating systems. I take in old broken computers, fix them up and give them to needy kids in the neighborhood. My husband is handy as well and can fabricate some mechanical parts (on a small scale) at his job. If you put the parts in a box, perhaps someone like me could build their own. Perhaps offer it as a build your own kit. I also mod gaming systems and still mod the original xbox for people pretty regularly. The people who have me mod for them would want a pandora, I just know it!

Brag much?

Anyway, I'd just like to point out that with most large companies, publicly complaining usually lets you get what you want. However, with a product like the Pandora split between multiple companies and absolutely no PR team, this rule doesnt really apply. I applaud ED for always being there for everyone however, he can't work magic.


As for your compromise, it sounds reasonable on the surface, but I would (personally) rather everyone pay the stated ammount in hopes the companies will have more money to in turn deliver the preorder que.


I am sorry for your difficulties in life. Your's seem to be worse than most. Are you a programmer? Because if not, it would be kind of fun if someone wrote a program for your pandora (when you recieve it) specifically to your liking.


I'm in the process of learning Java, but I'm not really "there" yet. However, maybe by the time you get your OP I could make something for you. Anything come to mind?

I wasn't trying to brag. How many middle aged women do you know that use soldering irons or even know what a capacitor is. My point was myself and my family engage in unusual hobbys.

Yeah, my difficulties suck. I was perfectly fine when I ordered my Pandora. I've played very little with programming. I do have a lcd light cube I made and have played with programming the pic. I actually don't play games very much on the consoles. I do like puzzle games and old school side scrollers when I do.

I think my compromise is worth considering. If I sit and wait, I would end up with an upgraded version of what I paid for at below cost. If I pay the difference now, then Pandora makes a profit and I won't have to wait another 3 years. I'm willing to pay an extra $150 to get what I would get eventually anyway. Allowing people to get it now via paying an extra sum of cash would help with cash flow. I already paid a stated amount and do not wish to double my investment. Perhaps a campaign where a preorder "donates" a specific dollar amount to get out of the queue. Cash flow is a problem and the queue is a problem...How can this not be beneficial. Three Pandoras on the preorder queue released through a $150 donation would free up one who chooses to wait. There needs to be more options than to double your investment.

As far as no evidence of fraud or swindle...Someone is keeping tight lipped on the situation. I certainly can't demand a forensic look at the book keeping. Even Ed has stated things appear to be different than what his understanding was. Klapse said "Your specific accusation of fraud is therefore off base and possibly libellous". It may be, but if Craig isn't up to dealing with circuitco in court, I doubt he would go after anyone here either. There would be evidence presented that would show inconsistent statements by Craig, a loss of money all over the place and absolutely no accountability of his part. Heck, I can't even get a response to my email. When this whole thing started, was Craig's company the only one taking financial risk getting production started? Why isn't Ed and Ithic in the same boat? As terrible as the circuitco fiasco is, I find that Craig operates in the same way. Promises, failure and no communication.

I feel the same way that Stephane feels. I occasionally browsed here periodically to see what was going on with the project. Asking me to double down was insulting. Good thing I didn't fall for it as I would still be sitting in a queue somewhere and double screwed. The only positive thing about the 2nd queue is I would be in a preferred queue that would be dealt with first. As things stand now and my placement in the original preorder queue, it will be another three years before I get anything. The writing is on the wall, Craig's company is doomed. The lights are on, but no ones home. Pretty soon the electric bill won't be paid and the lights will be out. How is his sales campaign using his connections to drum up sales going? Pandora will go on via Ed and new customers will be fine. Craig will move on to other ventures.

 

[klapse]

I think my compromise is worth considering. If I sit and wait, I would end up with an upgraded version of what I paid for at below cost. If I pay the difference now, then Pandora makes a profit and I won't have to wait another 3 years. I'm willing to pay an extra $150 to get what I would get eventually anyway. Allowing people to get it now via paying an extra sum of cash would help with cash flow. I already paid a stated amount and do not wish to double my investment. Perhaps a campaign where a preorder "donates" a specific dollar amount to get out of the queue. Cash flow is a problem and the queue is a problem...How can this not be beneficial. Three Pandoras on the preorder queue released through a $150 donation would free up one who chooses to wait. There needs to be more options than to double your investment.

You are missing out on one important fact! Your preorder money is GONE. An additional 150$ will not cover the production cost of one unit for you. Your suggestion cannot work.

 

[Kumaki]

Fraud implies intent to deceive or swindle.


I don't think that applies in this case.

Fraud implies absolutely nothing at all. Fraud is a word with a definition. Whatever connotations you may have are not implicit, they are inferred. 

As you see below, seeeejaaaay, I am nevertheless correct.  For something to be FRAUD there has to be a DELIBERATE DECEPTION.  Such is not the case.  And that was what I meant.  Fraud implies intent..Perhaps I didn;t state it TO YOUR LIKING...but tough...it's what I meant and my mode of speech...I AM STILL CORRECT.

fraud  (frôd)n.

1. A deception deliberately practised in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.

 

 

[hedwards]

Fraud implies intent to deceive or swindle.


I don't think that applies in this case.

Fraud implies absolutely nothing at all. Fraud is a word with a definition. Whatever connotations you may have are not implicit, they are inferred. 

Yes, and in order for it to be fraud there needs to be intent to defraud somebody. Now, how much one needs to know about the situation will vary, in some places failing to investigate suspected risks and communicate that with the customer might qualify, you still need to do so intentionally.


Fraud has a meaning, but legally and colloquially, but it always requires some sort of intent on the party committing the fraud, otherwise it's just bad planning and incompetence.

 

[fritata]

I never liked the idea of buying something with money that I don't own.

 

[Marycontrary]

I think my compromise is worth considering. If I sit and wait, I would end up with an upgraded version of what I paid for at below cost. If I pay the difference now, then Pandora makes a profit and I won't have to wait another 3 years. I'm willing to pay an extra $150 to get what I would get eventually anyway. Allowing people to get it now via paying an extra sum of cash would help with cash flow. I already paid a stated amount and do not wish to double my investment. Perhaps a campaign where a preorder "donates" a specific dollar amount to get out of the queue. Cash flow is a problem and the queue is a problem...How can this not be beneficial. Three Pandoras on the preorder queue released through a $150 donation would free up one who chooses to wait. There needs to be more options than to double your investment.

You are missing out on one important fact! Your preorder money is GONE. An additional 150$ will not cover the production cost of one unit for you. Your suggestion cannot work.

You are correct there. How much do these units cost to produce? They must be similar in cost to produce, or we would have seen an option to upgrade to the rebirth. Could someone figure out a fair and workable price for a rebirth upgrade?

Back to the $150 number i pulled out of my butt. Say someone opts to upgrade to the 1ghz which funds one original. Send that funded original to someone upgrading to a rebirth for $150. You now have $150 more than you had before. Do that 3 times and It's paid for another original preorder. This could help get the queue fulfilled quicker by maybe 20%. More people may be apt to do this than spend another $416. Maybe $150 isn't the magical number to make it work, but I would bet it's close. You have to admit it is advantageous to consider a rebirth deal similar to the 1ghz deal because It's what we get anyway if we do nothing but wait $150 sounds more attractive than $416 :rolleyes: Many of us in the original queue don't feel like donating so that someone ahead of us gets their toy :lol: It may result in quite a few people willing to shell out more money. The down side is the people who cant afford even another $150 because they broke their piggybank back in the day when they put their faith into this project. They may feel somewhat slighted or annoyed, but it still benefits them in the long run.

The people on the preorder queue need more options. Let us feel like we have a choice.

Here's hoping this Pandora mess gets cleared up in 2013! Happy New Year