Timstertoo
Active Member
With 433 views and no other pre orderer showing interest in a setup like this I think it's safe to assume this idea is dead in the water.
Can't blame a boy for trying!
Can't blame a boy for trying!
Idea to break the impasse
- Thread starter Timstertoo
- Start date
Timstertoo
Active Member
This is also the reason I think finding a creative way to get more units out to the original pre orderers is something that can turn out positive on many fronts.
For instance:
1. More happy users on the forum
2. Less demotivating mails and PM's to ED & Craig
Maybe the most important point and regarding your post:
3. People grumbling loudest now might turn into the best ambassadors once they have a unit to show their friends after years of being ridiculed by them.(on a daily basis :rolleyes: ) If you're still on the boards after all this time and haven't asked for a refund yet and can still get fired up you most definitely are passionate about the product. Something to consider as they'll probably be just as vocal to the people around them once they have it. It will lead to more sales.
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Do you think that reusing the existing case, battery, dpad, abxy buttons, nubs and keyboard is a good idea (to reduce development costs)?
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ShleeDragon
Pro-Catflip
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- Aug 28, 2010
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As strange as it sounds.. I think it's better for them to build from the ground up. They've got experience and time to tweak the unit to improve the look and quality.
plus, if it looks like the iCP2.. it'll be sexier
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ZXDunny
Deep avatar
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- Oct 12, 2010
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Speaking for myself, there are a number of issues:
1. If you order from Craig, you can't be sure you'll get it at all, at least within a reasonable timeframe. Order from ED, and that point becomes void.
2. It's way too expensive for what it is, which leads to...
3. It is nowhere near enough of a hardware upgrade even from my 256MB CC Pandora, which has so far never failed to run anything I throw at it.
4. The 1GHz comes in a silver case which looks like utter arse. Talk about an unprofessional look. I mean, even Amstrad hardware looked better.
I may upgrade to a P2 if it ever comes out, but after the amount of waiting that went on for the CC Pandora, I'll not even pre-order it until there's plenty of stock in. I suspect I'm not alone in at least one of the points above.
Apologies for derailing the thread there.
D.
darkborn
Member
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2009
- Messages
- 455
Agree with most (well somehow I can't act as a happy user until I'm not a user at all), but I have compatible idea:
How about that all folks on this forum who got their Pandoras show in signature some mini-picture of Pandora and text like "Proud owner of Pandora since xxxx, model xxxx"?
Only those who really get it, and please don't do it "I'm still waiting". It will help to get confidence, if people can see how many Pandora really exists...
Of course, IDs on forum could be fake and multiple, but here are same people for years...
It will help sell and every possible modes of loan, sponsoring etc.
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All the upgrades are through ED. I was a preorder with Craig, but the upgrades are cross upgrades, so ED shipped my 1ghz unit a few weeks ago. Jacquelin will make sure that the details get to ED about the cross store upgrade and ED ultimately is the one that ships the unit.
So, people shouldn't be objecting on that basis.
I won't be preordering a P2 either, but that's largely because I've upgraded to the 1ghz unit, and I'm not sure if I'm going to need the extras that the P2 provides. But, who knows, the specs aren't even finished on the P2 and who knows when or if it will be shipped.
Kumaki
Well-Known Member
Well, there IS the "Member Map" under the "Community" tab on the forum page here, ut when I last looked it didn't show any Pandys in Pennsylvania...and I know for a fact there's at least ONE here in PA....mine.
In fact...if someone in power here would kindly add me...zip code 18353 to the map, I'd appreciate it.
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Kumaki
Well-Known Member
How do I do that?
EDIT: Never mind. I saw it. Never actually noticed it before. I added myself.
EDIT: Never mind. I saw it. Never actually noticed it before. I added myself.
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Stephane Hockenhull
Member
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- Sep 12, 2010
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- 282
... really, you gotta ask ?
because "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me."
I gave money to Craig and got nothing in return, yet.
I'd feel stupid giving even more money.
ever heard of "bait and switch" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait-and-switch ?
and that is considered a fraud even when the customer did not give money in advance.
I'm so happy to know he's spent over $2000 on a 3D printer and is now having fun with it.
The other reason is the other Pandora I bought, after only 6 months, is already starting to have occasional issues with the LCD cable:
how it looks when its fine:
Its still usable for now so I'm not messing with it or returning it for repair yet, but this does not make me want to pay even more money.
also, I got two RaspberryPi for 35$ each and the GPU on that kick the OpenPandora GPU's ass big time:
$500 OpenPandora struggling at 47fps trying to render just ONE 3D window.
(have to admit the raspberry pi's cpu is pretty slow, nothing like the OP's Cortex A8 )
and after more than 3 years waiting Craig asks me FOR MORE MONEY to deliver what he promised???
no.
I gave money up front, got nothing, I'm not giving any more money.
The thing I can do is wait for my first batch unit to arrive someday when Craig finds a way to complete his part of the contract as originally agreed.
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Well, you won't give money to Craig and would get a 1GHz Pandora for certain, so that's a non-valid argument.
The LCD Cable was an issue with early Pandoras and is actually a warranty repair, so you'd get it repaired for free. Of course, if you won't RMA it, then that's your own issue, but otherwise, it's a non-valid argument as well.
And 3D... hm. No idea. Never really had the urge to use 3D on the Pandora, but even then, the Pi is slower in a lot of other areas (2D accelleration, etc.)... but, umm... the Pi is a bare PCB without LCD, keyboard, battery, etc. while the Pandora is a full mobile system... so both items are something completely different, so this doesn't even make sense.
The LCD Cable was an issue with early Pandoras and is actually a warranty repair, so you'd get it repaired for free. Of course, if you won't RMA it, then that's your own issue, but otherwise, it's a non-valid argument as well.
And 3D... hm. No idea. Never really had the urge to use 3D on the Pandora, but even then, the Pi is slower in a lot of other areas (2D accelleration, etc.)... but, umm... the Pi is a bare PCB without LCD, keyboard, battery, etc. while the Pandora is a full mobile system... so both items are something completely different, so this doesn't even make sense.
But paying in advance for a not-yet produced product is precisely the difference that makes this NOT a bait and switch.
Openpandora LTD was NOT a retail store advertising units in stock. Preorderers were micro investors in a risk project, one which ran out of funds due to suppliers not fulfilling their contracts. It was made clear from the beginning that money from preorders WAS the funding for production.
Again, it was a risk venture, like a Kickstarter project, and not a retail shop advertising a product as "in stock" and then diverting customers to a different product.
Your specific accusation of fraud is therefore off base and possibly libellous.
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Kumaki
Well-Known Member
True...but you can't blame the guy for feeling screwed. I would.
Marycontrary
Member
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- Dec 14, 2012
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- 54
Umm, Yeah it IS bait and switch. When I ordered, I understood it was to fund production and get the ball rolling. Production did start and the product has been upgraded twice. It never occured to me that time and money would go into upgrading units before the originals were fulfilled. Now, I am asked to pay again for an upgraded model with no other options. It seems to be the only way to get a Pandora. There is always a subtle threat that if Craig falls off the financial cliff nobody gets one and the Pandora is history. Unless you ordered from ED. I wish I would have ordered from ED but, at the time if you lived in the states you were directed to Craigs shop.
I understand that what we all paid for the start up is less than the cost to produce one. Could we be offered a chance to pay the difference and get what we agreed to sooner? The out of pocket for the upgrade is too much money, especially when you have been jerked around for 3 or 4 years with no end in sight. I also have other obligations and would never have been a part of the startup if the cost were $700 from the getgo. My life circumstances are not what they were over 3 years ago.
How can we have faith when we are kept in the dark about Craigs situation? I'm not buying a lot of the what I hear about circuitco. Reading the forums, it's hard to paste together what happened after circuitco failed to produce. Did Craig communicate to them they way he communicates to us? Did anyone even consult with an attorney? Usually an attorney will take a case for no up front money and take 1/3 of the settlement. Why do you all feel you could not win in court? You could appoint an american to represent your interests in court. I feel like no efforts have been made to mitigate your damages and we are expected to take the same attitude in regards to your failure to uphold your end of the agreement with our start up money.
I wish I would have understood the start up better. I thought I was investing in a start up company, not individual re-sellers. I had no clue there were multiple enities to invest in. Craig/Jacquelyn no longer answer any e-mails and it seems Craig has closed down shop. He now has other interests and is using his many talents to drum up business to increase sales. So he is still working for the Pandora project in some way, and our situation (original preorders) has become worse.
Keep in mind I have waited 3 years without a complaint. I didn't even register at the site until last month. I have been patient and I probably could have remained patient for a few more months. At this point I'm bitter. I am bitter because people were able to buy the product before it became available to preorders. I'm bitter because Craig has a bad attitude and can't be bothered. I'm bitter because those of you holding your shiny new pandoras act like he is a god. I'm bitter because Ed is a dandy business person and due to my location, I got stuck with Craig. I'm bitter because I believe there really are no plans to get the originals preorders fulfilled. How many original preorders have been fulfilled since production started in Germany?
Now, someone will come along and complain about my spelling and grammar. Pick apart the words I have written and not read any of the meaning. Many of the community are rude and insulting. I see many have donated to getting the preorders fulfilled and I appreciate that. I do think a running total of donations would be proper and an accounting of those funds should be made available. No offense to Ed, but the whole Pandora name is tainted with lack of accountability. I would like a clue, just a hint at where I stand in line for getting what I paid for. If I'm 3,000 in line to get one, then I'll slither under a rock until this time next year. If I'm 100 in line then I can begin reading the forums to learn what I can about using the Pandora.
I understand that what we all paid for the start up is less than the cost to produce one. Could we be offered a chance to pay the difference and get what we agreed to sooner? The out of pocket for the upgrade is too much money, especially when you have been jerked around for 3 or 4 years with no end in sight. I also have other obligations and would never have been a part of the startup if the cost were $700 from the getgo. My life circumstances are not what they were over 3 years ago.
How can we have faith when we are kept in the dark about Craigs situation? I'm not buying a lot of the what I hear about circuitco. Reading the forums, it's hard to paste together what happened after circuitco failed to produce. Did Craig communicate to them they way he communicates to us? Did anyone even consult with an attorney? Usually an attorney will take a case for no up front money and take 1/3 of the settlement. Why do you all feel you could not win in court? You could appoint an american to represent your interests in court. I feel like no efforts have been made to mitigate your damages and we are expected to take the same attitude in regards to your failure to uphold your end of the agreement with our start up money.
I wish I would have understood the start up better. I thought I was investing in a start up company, not individual re-sellers. I had no clue there were multiple enities to invest in. Craig/Jacquelyn no longer answer any e-mails and it seems Craig has closed down shop. He now has other interests and is using his many talents to drum up business to increase sales. So he is still working for the Pandora project in some way, and our situation (original preorders) has become worse.
Keep in mind I have waited 3 years without a complaint. I didn't even register at the site until last month. I have been patient and I probably could have remained patient for a few more months. At this point I'm bitter. I am bitter because people were able to buy the product before it became available to preorders. I'm bitter because Craig has a bad attitude and can't be bothered. I'm bitter because those of you holding your shiny new pandoras act like he is a god. I'm bitter because Ed is a dandy business person and due to my location, I got stuck with Craig. I'm bitter because I believe there really are no plans to get the originals preorders fulfilled. How many original preorders have been fulfilled since production started in Germany?
Now, someone will come along and complain about my spelling and grammar. Pick apart the words I have written and not read any of the meaning. Many of the community are rude and insulting. I see many have donated to getting the preorders fulfilled and I appreciate that. I do think a running total of donations would be proper and an accounting of those funds should be made available. No offense to Ed, but the whole Pandora name is tainted with lack of accountability. I would like a clue, just a hint at where I stand in line for getting what I paid for. If I'm 3,000 in line to get one, then I'll slither under a rock until this time next year. If I'm 100 in line then I can begin reading the forums to learn what I can about using the Pandora.
Neelix
Insecticidal Maniac
For most of what you are asking, there is only one person who can answer your queries specifically, and that person is Craig. Those of us who have who have been around here for a while have long accepted that Craig will never answer such questions specifically, because people have been asking the same questions for years with no satisfaction. This includes the question of legal action against CC. Only Craig can take such action, as his company is the one who had the contract with them, and while he has implied such action is being pursued, we know nothing further.
I believe ED has well demonstrated his commitment to fulfil all pre-orders including Craig's customers but there is only so much he can do when this needs to be funded by new sales. I certainly see where you are coming from with regards to the upgrade pricing, but I also know that ED can't afford to lower his prices to the point that those waiting for a pre-order would consider fair and still be able to keep producing enough to satisfy all the orders.
In terms of where you are in line, the date your original order was confirmed is probably still the best indicator. Do you still have the original order confirmation email? If so, what was the time stamp on it?
- Neelix
I believe ED has well demonstrated his commitment to fulfil all pre-orders including Craig's customers but there is only so much he can do when this needs to be funded by new sales. I certainly see where you are coming from with regards to the upgrade pricing, but I also know that ED can't afford to lower his prices to the point that those waiting for a pre-order would consider fair and still be able to keep producing enough to satisfy all the orders.
In terms of where you are in line, the date your original order was confirmed is probably still the best indicator. Do you still have the original order confirmation email? If so, what was the time stamp on it?
- Neelix
Well, I can answer a few questions, but not all.
I can't tell you where you are in the queue, but I can tell you that I'm trying to get all preorders out, both for mine and for Craigs queue.
Since production in Germany started, about 600 old preorders have gotten their Pandora. About 150 of those were upgrades, the remaining ones have been funded by profit.
Out of those, 450 left, about 260 went to my shop and 190 to Craigs shop. The reason I got more is simply because of those 70 unpaid 1GHz units.
Delivery will continue now, but I guess Craig first wants to fullfill his 1GHz queue with the units he gets from sales.
I was the one who tried to communicate with CC the last 6 months of their production, so I can tell you they ARE as bad as Craig says. They haven't even been able to tell me how many broken PCBs they got left so we could fix them within months... all you get is 'I'll let you know next week'.
I don't know what the status with the lawsuit is, as only Craig can start it.
But I know I browsed through all mails for lies and promises and made a neat list showing how bad they were. This list was meant for the lawyers, but I don't know what ever happened there.
I can't tell you where you are in the queue, but I can tell you that I'm trying to get all preorders out, both for mine and for Craigs queue.
Since production in Germany started, about 600 old preorders have gotten their Pandora. About 150 of those were upgrades, the remaining ones have been funded by profit.
Out of those, 450 left, about 260 went to my shop and 190 to Craigs shop. The reason I got more is simply because of those 70 unpaid 1GHz units.
Delivery will continue now, but I guess Craig first wants to fullfill his 1GHz queue with the units he gets from sales.
I was the one who tried to communicate with CC the last 6 months of their production, so I can tell you they ARE as bad as Craig says. They haven't even been able to tell me how many broken PCBs they got left so we could fix them within months... all you get is 'I'll let you know next week'.
I don't know what the status with the lawsuit is, as only Craig can start it.
But I know I browsed through all mails for lies and promises and made a neat list showing how bad they were. This list was meant for the lawyers, but I don't know what ever happened there.
Kumaki
Well-Known Member
Well...I never did business with Craig, and I certainly never said or acted as if he was any kind of God.
In fact, I've more than once commiserated with folks like you, Marycontrary...and I know if I were in your place I would not be happy either.
I've tried to make several suggestions to try to at least buy time and get Pandys into the hands of waiting folks such as yourself...but so far, the main suggestion I made has not been implemented or even considered.
Because I don't know the whole story, and I don't know Craig personally or professionally in a business sense, I can't make any statements about him being a God...or a fraud. All I know is what I have heard...and that he had problems beyond his control.
None of which, I understand...placates a patient waiting person such as yourself. I really wish the idea I put forward would be considered, because it would at least replace the existing queue of people who have been waiting three years...with people who haven't been waiting so long...and who already HAVE one Pandy...and just happen to want a second one, and would not mind waiting, in exchange for a lower price.
But, again, what do I know? I'm not on the inside, so I know not how feasible my suggestion is.
In fact, I've more than once commiserated with folks like you, Marycontrary...and I know if I were in your place I would not be happy either.
I've tried to make several suggestions to try to at least buy time and get Pandys into the hands of waiting folks such as yourself...but so far, the main suggestion I made has not been implemented or even considered.
Because I don't know the whole story, and I don't know Craig personally or professionally in a business sense, I can't make any statements about him being a God...or a fraud. All I know is what I have heard...and that he had problems beyond his control.
None of which, I understand...placates a patient waiting person such as yourself. I really wish the idea I put forward would be considered, because it would at least replace the existing queue of people who have been waiting three years...with people who haven't been waiting so long...and who already HAVE one Pandy...and just happen to want a second one, and would not mind waiting, in exchange for a lower price.
But, again, what do I know? I'm not on the inside, so I know not how feasible my suggestion is.
It is NOT bait and switch for the reasons I posted above. A bait and switch scam is when a seller draws you into their shop with the advertised promise of HAVING UNITS TO SELL YOU and then tells you there are no more of the advertised units in stock, so please buy this other model. Openpandora LTD did nothing of the sort.
You see, words which are strung together into commonplace phrases sometimes have specific meanings and you cannot credibly assign your own meanings to terms such as "bait and switch".
The situation Openpandora LTD is in is called a cash flow problem. There is no scam or fraud that we can identify - just a history of supplier problems leading to cost overruns, delays and poor customer/investor relations.
You are not asked to upgrade with no other options: You have many options to get a new or used Pandora now, starting around 200 euro, or wait for your original order to ship.
Please let's be careful when choosing phrases to express ourselves about this delicate matter. Thank you dearly.
Kumaki
Well-Known Member
Much as I said above.
Making allegations of "fraud" or "bait-and-switch" are pretty serious...and should not be made in a public forum, unless one has ample evidence that such is the case.
Even as I have commiserated with those on waiting...and tried to offer solutions, I believe I've also been very careful to not make unfounded allegations, and I've tried to be friendly and helpful.
But again, I can understand the POV of someone on the outside looking in...and being very upset.
Making allegations of "fraud" or "bait-and-switch" are pretty serious...and should not be made in a public forum, unless one has ample evidence that such is the case.
Even as I have commiserated with those on waiting...and tried to offer solutions, I believe I've also been very careful to not make unfounded allegations, and I've tried to be friendly and helpful.
But again, I can understand the POV of someone on the outside looking in...and being very upset.
