GamesCom, Shoulderbuttons and Heating

[Neelix]

Maybe. Are you thinking of using a single fingers to control both buttons, or two separate fingers just like in most controllers?
 
In my case, my fingers are too thick to fit two of them behind the Pandora/Pyra - and having a single finger to control both buttons may work, but I think it would be painful after a while on your joints.

I think it's pretty clear that it's going to be pretty impractical for most people to use two fingers to operate the shoulder buttons, so the best thing to aim for is to make it as comfortable as possible to use one finger to press one, the other or both.

- Neelix

 

[ekianjo]

make it as comfortable as possible to use one finger to press one, the other or both.

Yeah, that's my assumption as well. I'm just not sure it's very realistic to expect this to work well in the end. For a couple of reasons:

- as I mentioned, it will probably be painful after a while

- if you make it too easy to press the shoulder button 1 (the one at the edge) for increased comfort, then it will result in more accidental presses

- on top of being painful, it's likely to be very imprecise, since the most sensitive and powerful part of your fingers is at the fingertip, not so much in the joints in between.

It's going to be hard to reach a good compromise. 

 

[Neelix]

It's going to be hard to reach a good compromise. 

Perhaps so,  but I think that of the proposals I've seen so far, what Saber and Fusion_Power are suggesting seems (by the looks of it,  obviously some testing would be a good idea) most likely to be both more comfortable and/or easier to operate than ED's current solution, and  practical to implement given the existing design.

- Neelix

 

[ekianjo]

what Saber and Fusion_Power are suggesting seems (by the looks of it,  obviously some testing would be a good idea)

Definitely, for this kind of things, testing will be required to validate the design choices. I hope ED is still open to get more prototypes and test them, even if that may delay the Pyra for a couple of months.   

 

[Nintendo]

Some quick & dirty 3D sketches of these "diagonal" button mixup, bottom trigger could be larger and upper trigger smaller, I know. ^^"

Pretty awesome for 'quick & dirty 3D sketches'.

 

[fusion_power]

Some quick & dirty 3D sketches of these "diagonal" button mixup, bottom trigger could be larger and upper trigger smaller, I know. ^^"

Really nice job especially the third picture. Only missing the small separation gap where the pair almost make contact between one another from the outside viewpoint. Close to perfection.  :wub:

Thanks. In fact, there is a 2mm gap between the buttons but it is not that clear to see in the pictures. I should redo the entire construction, I only used the Pandora files so the case in the pic does not match to the buttons which can lead to some confusion. ^^"

I think it's pretty clear that it's going to be pretty impractical for most people to use two fingers to operate the shoulder buttons, so the best thing to aim for is to make it as comfortable as possible to use one finger to press one, the other or both.

I see no way to use these buttons with 2 fingers per side, no matter how the buttons are placed. For me it's clear that you use these Triggers only with your index fingers, one after another or both buttons at the same time. However, L1 and R1 at the "classic" position should stay the main triggers which are comfortable to reach. I see L2 and R2 only as an additional gimmick which should not decrease the comfort of the main triggers.

Pretty awesome for 'quick & dirty 3D sketches'.

Thanks, I'm happy that I found Autodesk 123D Design, compared simple to use tool and it's free software too. I still have to fight a little with this tool but it's getting better. I will redo my design and try to increase the buttons (they are compared small actualy). However, they take the same horizontal room (if not less) than the normal Pandora Trigger, both buttons use the same hinge at he same position like the classic Pandora triggers, assuming that place will not much change for the Pyra.

 

[ashcloud]

This might sound crazy, but how about buttons on the other two corners, which could be pressed using your palms instead of fingers? Just turn your pandora around to test it! I think it works surprisingly well. The buttons would need a little bit more resistance though. They would have to face more to the side than the front to be easier to press. Most of the time the edges of the Pandora are pressing against the palms, so why not make that something useful on the Pyra?

Edit: Side would actually be bad. Front is better.

Well, if you consider this, than you should probably test which is better, I just don't know

 

[ekianjo]

This might sound crazy, but how about buttons on the other two corners, which could be pressed using your palms instead of fingers? Just turn your pandora around to test it! I think it works surprisingly well. The buttons would need a little bit more resistance though. They would have to face more to the side than the front to be easier to press. Most of the time the edges of the Pandora are pressing against the palms, so why not make that something useful on the Pyra?

Edit: Side would actually be bad. Front is better.

Well, if you consider this, than you should probably test which is better, I just don't know

How about accidental presses?

 

[lurker]

Would the shoulderbutton layout from the Wii Classic Controller be an option?

Only if we sacrifice all ports :/

Here's an idea:

Cover some of the ports with flaps. With flaps open, you could access the ports. With flaps closed, they would double as extra buttons.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

How would you use those port while pressing the buttons at the same time? And how is this technically possible?

 

[ashcloud]

This might sound crazy, but how about buttons on the other two corners, which could be pressed using your palms instead of fingers? Just turn your pandora around to test it! I think it works surprisingly well. The buttons would need a little bit more resistance though. They would have to face more to the side than the front to be easier to press. Most of the time the edges of the Pandora are pressing against the palms, so why not make that something useful on the Pyra?

Edit: Side would actually be bad. Front is better.

Well, if you consider this, than you should probably test which is better, I just don't know

How about accidental presses?

I don't think there will be many. When typing on the keyboard I don't really touch the corners. In this case it shouldn't be a problem at all. When using the gaming controls that would be possible. I just played around with my pandora (closed) held the wrong way around and pretended to use the gaming controls. For me unintended button presses would be very very rare, as most of the force my hands are exerting on the case are from the side, but the buttons would have to be pressed to the front. They are actually very easy to press, but only if intended, just by pulling the hand forward using a finger on the backside.

One problem to evaluate this is of course, that the pandora closed is a lot thicker than when it is open, but I don't think it would make much difference.

I just don't know if this could actually be problematic to someone who is used to hold the device in another way or has smaller or bigger hands than me. So just all of you who have a Pandora try it out and write what you think about it.

At least for me buttons in this position would be easy to use for gaming controls. For using these as modifier keys I would have problems pressing these with the palm, but I'm holding my Pandora in a way I could easily reach them with the little finger (not with the fingertip of course, but somewhere around the base of the finger). This could be very different for other people though. Pleasy try it out! Just take your Pandora and pretend there are buttons on the front. Would they be easy to reach for you when typing and gaming?

For me they'd definitly be easy to reach and useful. I wouldn't press them by accident, or at least not more often than I accidentally press the shoulder buttons. I think this could really be worth investigating. Maybe ED could make a test board with buttons on the front and give it a try. Maybe cut two old pandora cases and put them together in a way there are buttons on every corner for testing.

 

[EvilDragon]

But where would you put the physical buttons at the front?


Inside of the keymat or inside of the 3G antenna and volume wheel won't work.

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

Do we really need four shoulder buttons? We still have six face buttons right?

Could the additional shoulder button area be used for something else? Two shoulder buttons may be enough. Its enough for dreamcast and gamecube (if we get gamecube). Ps1 and ps2? We can remap the buttons?

If four is absolutely required then maybe just two small nibs or pronounced bumps?

 

[ashcloud]

But where would you put the physical buttons at the front?


Inside of the keymat or inside of the 3G antenna and volume wheel won't work.

Well, if it's not possible to move the other parts out of the way it's not going to happen of course, thats right. The antenna looks like there is some space besides it, but I don't know, maybe moving it would cause some issues because of the high frequencies. On the other side space looks more scarce. Maybe the volume wheel could swap it's place with whatever that unpopulated BGA contacts are? Then it would be on the side, I'm not sure if that would be a problem with the case.

 

[EvilDragon]

The antenna area is that big as LTE antennas need more space.


You wouldn't want to put the volume wheel to the side (you'd accidentally change the volume while playing) and the unpopulated BGA contacts are for the Wifi chip.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

Do we really need four shoulder buttons? We still have six face buttons right?


Could the additional shoulder button area be used for something else? Two shoulder buttons may be enough. Its enough for dreamcast and gamecube (if we get gamecube). Ps1 and ps2? We can remap the buttons?


If four is absolutely required then maybe just two small nibs or pronounced bumps?

It is clumsy to play games like MSG1 with no proper 4 shoulder buttons.

 

[Grench]

Do we really need four shoulder buttons? We still have six face buttons right?


Could the additional shoulder button area be used for something else? Two shoulder buttons may be enough. Its enough for dreamcast and gamecube (if we get gamecube). Ps1 and ps2? We can remap the buttons?


If four is absolutely required then maybe just two small nibs or pronounced bumps?

It's a legitimate question.  


Need?  Not really.  On the scale of water, shelter, fire, food no.  


Want?  Yes.  From the keyboard mapping craziness it's apparent that more than two shift/modifier keys make a substantial difference in typing/business use and the game guys all seem to be on board with it.


/*********************/


Glass half full - four buttons are there!


Glass half empty - the top two are difficult to use due to how close they are to the hinge!


Glass twice as large as it needs to be - it's twice as many shoulder buttons as we 'need'.


/********************/


Another idea...  top buttons are crowded and hard to press because of proximity to the hinges.  Change the hinges.


Cross section of a Pandora's hinge is essentially a hump with a hole in the middle.  How about shifting that hole up and back - and square up that portion of the case a bit in the process?


See if I can ascii draw this...


Instead of:

/-------\

|       |

|   O   |

|       |

Maybe this:

|-----\

| O    \

|       \

|       |

 

By offsetting the hinge up and back it could effectively -raise- the LCD/case intersect by 2-3mm or more.  Yielding 2-3mm or so more room for the upper button.  It would also lift the display @ 2-3mm higher.

 

Thoughts?

 

[ashcloud]

The antenna area is that big as LTE antennas need more space.


You wouldn't want to put the volume wheel to the side (you'd accidentally change the volume while playing) and the unpopulated BGA contacts are for the Wifi chip.

Ok, I see there is sadly no place for it. Maybe think about it again when developing a successor for the pyra in a few years?

Edit: Last try Maybe there could be a mechanical contact to a button which is placed somewhere where there is enough space on the board. Then just the plasice part would have to be a little larger.

Yeah, maybe not, since there are some mounting holes in the way.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

How about Pyra should just have two shoulder buttons similar to Pandora now. But then Ed would make an add on periperal similar to the 3DS circlepad pro for those who really wants 4 shoulder buttons? That way everyone is happy and won't complicate Pyra design

 

[Null]

That way everyone is happy

Nope, I can't foresee that happening.