Case Sneak Peek

[codifies]

Christop.Krn said

• Unless we are careful, we cannot know whether or not a significant number of users will end up being frustrated about the keyboards in situations where it could have been prevented

Save for the fact the Pandora keyboard has been in use ... How many years now?

*edit quote author was wrong

 

[Christoph.Krn]

codifies, you've misattributed the quote. It was me who wrote that, not Moxie. Also, note how you're being careful there...

 

[codifies]

careful how?

 

[fusion_power]

Build our own hinge? With what funds?

Better than buying ready but non flexible Hinges I guess. And you can be sure you get what you want.   It is only a small piece of metal, I'm sure most of the stuff you can buy cheaply at your Baumarkt. 

 

[Grench]

Build our own hinge? With what funds?

Better than buying ready but non flexible Hinges I guess. And you can be sure you get what you want.   It is only a small piece of metal, I'm sure most of the stuff you can buy cheaply at your Baumarkt. 

I suspect two things may be true.

ED may be stuck on the idea that the hinge must be an in-pivot spring loaded device that pulls the unit into one of two positions.

The costs associated with the mechanical and materials design of this little part may indeed be substantial.

I have proposed this idea before and I apologize if it is repetitive.  Skip the little plastic hinge tension thing entirely.  What would be potentially more effective is to have a system that allows the end user to adjust the friction of the non-data hinge.

Place a captured nut in the left hinge base.  Place a -long- screw/bolt with a knurled cap on it left to right at the base of the monitor plastics.  Tighten the knurled screw and it forces the screen side of the left hinge into the base side of the left hinge and increases the friction.  The screw metal itself acts as the pivot for the left hinge.

The screw itself can also be 'captured' to the plastics.  Find any computer VGA or DVI cable and check out the knurled screw/bolt and how it works.  Back it out and it disconnects - pull gently on it and keep unscrewing and the screw -can- come out.

 

[TrashyMG]

I also suspect EvilDragon is far enough into the case design to not want to try anything new at this point.

 

[comradekingu]

Because if you spend the time to research it, it presents itself as a very valid concern. It takes a while before everyone realizes.

 

This I like to call "The Philosophers Argument", because it is recurring again and again throughout the history of philosophy. From Descartes to Kant to Hegel to Rawls, and several others. They all present arguments that, in one way or another, boils down to this: 


"If a rational enough, intelligent enough, person sits down and thinks long and hard enough about this problem, then they will inevitably come to the same conclusion as me. Therefore, it is true. If they don't come to the same conclusion, it means they are not sufficiently rational, intelligent, knowledgeable, or hard-thinking".

But do avoid falling into fallacy fallacy. Just because the point is badly argued doesn't mean it is, in fact, false.

For case of argument, yes, that could well be the case. It does lack the proof, so its meaningless babble without something else to point to. Philosophers stoned aside. In this case however, I stick with rationality inherent in the pudding of my argument. I explain my views, and try to help others learn and learn from them. I am very open to being wrong, and have been several times over along the way. That is just as nice a way of breaking new ground.

 

[EvilDragon]

The problem with the hinge is not that I wouldn't want anything better.

The problem is that we can't do many experiments here.

Even the simple Pandora nubs did cost over 100,000 EUR in development and still the first 800 failed completely and we still had a 30% failure rate of the ones after.

If I did that, then there won't be a Pyra, as I don't have 100,000 EUR lying around somewhere...

If you have enough fundings and time, you can design your own parts - but doing that without having a REAL good knowledge in that area is suicide.

Especially when it comes to mechanical parts which need to be durable and mass produced.

There's a huge difference tweaking ONE of them manually for a prototype and having them reliably produced with mass production.

I tried with multiple companies specialized on fraction hinges to get a better hinge. They couldn't offer one with the size we need.

So the only thing we can do is use off-the-shelf ones - if you find one that fits, let me know and I'll gladly use it.

But until then, we can only use the one we have and make a small change to the plastic to add friction.

 

[Grench]

It's a solid plan.  Use what you know works and move on.  There are plenty of other pieces to this design that are new and different enough to require more energy - shoulder buttons is a prime example of that.

Great work EvilDragon - I'm looking forward to the next stages of development.

 

[comradekingu]

Maybe there is a field that uses friction hinges other than laptops and clamshells?

Like Rc-cars or small cabinets for hobbyists, something like that. What is sturdy and flaps open something of comparable size?

 

[fusion_power]

Even the simple Pandora nubs did cost over 100,000 EUR in development and still the first 800 failed completely and we still had a 30% failure rate of the ones after.

If I did that, then there won't be a Pyra, as I don't have 100,000 EUR lying around somewhere...

This sounds more like an very bad contract if I look at the poor quality of these nubs (my left Pandora nub is more or less broken, it calibrates bad to the right side and only moves there when I first move it to the left, how weird is that!). These nubs are not much more worth than a few cents imho, if you have payed more then they screwed you up very badly.Of course this can be avoided next time, and the Pyra will have better nubs for sure. I don't know much about the actual hinge, if an self tinkered solution is cheaper, use it but if there is no way then you have to use the ones you can get. I sketched up one possible idea, I will try to improve the design so that it fits into the existing case, no re-design needed.

Place a captured nut in the left hinge base.  Place a -long- screw/bolt with a knurled cap on it left to right at the base of the monitor plastics.  Tighten the knurled screw and it forces the screen side of the left hinge into the base side of the left hinge and increases the friction.  The screw metal itself acts as the pivot for the left hinge.

I remember this design idea. It's nice and would be durable for sure, however, it would also need serious re-design of the case, or at least the entire hinge area, which will not happen anymore at this state I guess.My idea was to just have an simple mechanism that you can tweak by yourself. Like using a stronger spring for example or making more holes in the mechanism for more lock positions.

P.S.: is this the right NDS hinge?

http://www.ipmart.com/main/product/Hinge,Compatible,For,NDS,146418.php?prod=146418

Expencive, indeed. I'm sure there are cheaper solutions. ^^

 

[Xcl4m4t10n]

Will the case be open source? In case of yes, Why do not make an alternative for those that wanted another case?

 

[ekianjo]

Will the case be open source?

You mean will the files be public ?

You don't open the "source" for something that is not software, per definition.  

 

[ekianjo]

ED, can you confirm also one very important aspect ? One of the reasons why the Pandora looked "cheap" in a way was that when you closed the lid, it was never perfectly closed (the left side is always slightly more opened than the right side) and this is probably due to the imbalance caused by the hinge. How do you plan to address this issue with the Pyra to ensure it looks better ?

 
That was actualy by warping of the lid due bad injection molding if I remember correctly. If not done right, the plastic will warp and this caused the gap. One cause of this may also be the fact that there are many spots in the pandora case that are thicker than others, which is generaly bad when you want to cool down plastic equal and even to avoid warping. Look at the Pandora lid, thats alot of different thickness in there, very bad imho:

If you want a perfect, non warped plastic product, make sure that the thickness of the material is always the same.

Appreciate your answer, but I'd like to have an official answer from ED on that one as well, if possible. 

 

[thatgui]

Will the case be open source? In case of yes, Why do not make an alternative for those that wanted another case?

Yes the files will be available. But just making an alternative isn't an easy thing to do - without having the proper skills/money to buy/use the software involved and having machinery and materials available to really create the case > while 3D printing isn't that of a huge deal anymore, you won't produce a case that is comparable to a injection molded one.

You mean will the files be public ?

You don't open the "source" for something that is not software, per definition.

While I can't find anything (ad-hoc) to counter your definition I think the "open source" idea already outgrew its roots. And at least in this case the parallels are rather obvious to me: The designfile is the source, as it contains single points with several properties (like position in 3 dimensions, relationship to other points, etc.) and the "compiler" does not produce a executable binary but a visualization of that source code (or just translates into another language, in case you want to print/whatever it).Could be an interesting topic, when ED has to actually decide which license he wants to use.

 

[PowerGod]

I like how it looks, it didn't lost the Pandora style, but it's visibly more modern.

I can't understand how the lower shoulder buttons works, I don't see an empty area between them and the case.

Didn't followed too much the LCD angle discussions, but I used the Pandora mostly at 180° for everything except games, and at 145° just for playing, so it should be cool to have both options... anyway I'll trust ED decision about this, he's a user too.

 

[ekianjo]

And at least in this case the parallels are rather obvious to me: The designfile is the source, as it contains single points with several properties (like position in 3 dimensions, relationship to other points, etc.) and the "compiler" does not produce a executable binary but a visualization of that source code (or just translates into another language, in case you want to print/whatever it).

No, not at all. You are completely mistaking data with source. A source or a program implies a logic. Data has absolutely none. An xml file is not source code. A Json file is not source code. A music score is not considered as source code either. It's just data. 

For data-type of things, we don't use the term open source at all. There are licenses called creative commons for open data kind of things. Open Source refers to Software, and any use in other contexts is just ignorance or abuse of language.

 

[pmprog]

You don't open the "source" for something that is not software, per definition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-source_hardware
It's not Open-sourcecode, it's Open-source. Big difference

source (sôrs)

n.

1. A person or thing from which something comes into being or is derived or obtained: alternative sources of energy; the source of funding for the project.

2. The point of origin of a stream or river. See Synonyms at origin.

3. One, such as a person or document, that supplies information: A reporter is only as reliable as his or her sources.

4. Physics The point or part of a system where energy or mass is added to the system.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/source

 

[codifies]

Open source is not just source code, open source has been used in many contexts to reduce open source to one narrow field is just.... mistaken

 

[ekianjo]

Open source is not just source code, open source has been used in many contexts to reduce open source to one narrow field is just.... mistaken

Nope, i stand my point that this is an abuse of the word, just like people who use "hacker" in any context despite its clear origins and meaning. 

There are many words to describe something developed in the Open, and you don't need to use Open Source to describe that, unless you lack vocabulary.