The case of the case.

[God Ginrai]

For all of the reasons that have already been stated repeatedly, no.


 .


ED's 4+2 layout is a better option.  I understand that case design is moving forward with the 4+2.  Done is done.


Next?

Honestly, Grench... Fuck Off.


I am taking my own time to do this and this mod was suggested by EvilDragon. (He sent the parts)


I do not appreciate you coming in and shitting on my efforts.


You are entitled to your own opinion about what button layout we should use, but that does not justify you to try to undermine my efforts.

-God Ginrai

 

[Tenka]

Not every Pyra will have to look the same, and case modding is a thing we do here.

If the 4+2 button layout were overall "better" there would be no desire for the 6 button standard.

This layout does not have to be selected as the norm for users to design and mod an alternate layout for their handhelds.

 

[WizardStan]

If the 4+2 button layout were overall "better" there would be no desire for the 6 button standard.

That just means it isn't strictly better, but it can still be better overall. And then there are also people who will insist that something is better even after it has been proven that it is without a doubt inferior in every single way. That isn't the case here, there are pros and cons to both layout and what people prefer will be a balance of those pros and cons; I'm just pointing out that because someone wants something different is not in any way an argument that that something is necessarily wrong with whatever it is the person is arguing against. If that made sense.

This layout does not have to be selected as the norm for users to design and mod an alternate layout for their handhelds.

Yes it does, this is deciding layouts on the board itself. Moving the buttons would require designing a whole new board with contacts in a different place. Whatever ED comes up with in terms of physical layout is what we will be stuck with.

 

[Tenka]

This layout does not have to be selected as the norm for users to design and mod an alternate layout for their handhelds.

Yes it does, this is deciding layouts on the board itself. Moving the buttons would require designing a whole new board with contacts in a different place. Whatever ED comes up with in terms of physical layout is what we will be stuck with.

I thought it would only be a matter of laying a thin plastic tape between the board contacts and the bottoms of the buttons on a custom case front, then wiring the board button contacts to button activated switches beneath the new buttons, or something like that.  If that isn't possible then darn, there goes my only backup plan.  Replace everything I've addressed to Grench with "Nuh uh!"

 

[comradekingu]

If you add some epoxy in the cut and then sand it down afterwards it will be flush. Add a spray of plastic paint and nobody will know.

 

[God Ginrai]

This layout does not have to be selected as the norm for users to design and mod an alternate layout for their handhelds.

Yes it does, this is deciding layouts on the board itself. Moving the buttons would require designing a whole new board with contacts in a different place. Whatever ED comes up with in terms of physical layout is what we will be stuck with.

Which is exactly why it is so important to make sure we make an informed decision before the device goes into production. This is why I am putting effort into doing this mod.

Update on Revision 2:

So, I tried a different way to figure out where to lay out things for the second revision, and the result was not as satisfactory as the first revision. I will attempt a third revision sometime later this week when I have time.

-God Ginrai

 

[Tenka]

Thank you for your continued efforts God Ginrai, I'm always looking forward to each next thing.  How many people do you think it would bother if the rightmost two buttons were a little closer to the middle two than the middle two are to the leftmost two?  I don't like that, but I wouldn't mind accepting it.  I may have seen someone say that their thumb was much too large and would press them over there, but I'm not imagining them any closer than in EvilDragon's current layout, and less in the way of any other button considering they do not surround any of them.

Do you, God Ginrai, personally feel greatly opposed to the two new buttons remaining as little as they are in EvilDragon's current layout, as long as they are in the right places?  I would feel fine with that, but I'm just trying to make as many acceptable compromises as possible so as to satisfy as many uninterested people as can be.  I realize you cannot physically test that with only DS Lite and Pandora buttons.

 

[Natsu]

Hey guys, I'm going to try to make a more refined revision tomorrow night. I'm hoping for it to end up looking more like this:

revision_hope.jpg

As for the shroud, that's something I can't measure, since this is a Pandora case and no new nub parts came with it for me to compare it with. If this does somehow conflict with the shroud, I believe the next question to ask would be "by how much?". If moving the shroud slightly inward facilitated a button layout that most everyone could agree on, then that is certainly worth considering.

-God Ginrai

You may need to move the A button a bit to the right, but it looks fine to me and again, you can always make the extra two buttons smaller.

 

[WizardStan]

Which is exactly why it is so important to make sure we make an informed decision before the device goes into production.

Which is where a lot of the negativity you're getting is coming from.Personally, I didn't have any actual desire for 6 buttons. I saw the potential in having 2 extra buttons but I'm a 4 button gamer, and for keyboard tasks the pgup/pgdn/home/end layout made perfect sense: jamming two buttons on there risks messing the natural flow of these things.

Then along came ED's solution, two buttons still within easy reach but no risk of interference; it mitigated all the fears I had about two extra buttons.

I am not alone in this, most of us (from previous polls) do not want an arcade style 6 button layout if it means sacrificing the natural 4 button cross layout in any way. You're so focused on just trying to prove that it is physically possible to get the layout you want that you're forgetting the fear that your two buttons will get in the way of those that don't want them, and those that don't want them are the majority.

 

[Grench]

For all of the reasons that have already been stated repeatedly, no.


 .


ED's 4+2 layout is a better option.  I understand that case design is moving forward with the 4+2.  Done is done.


Next?

Honestly, Grench... F%^& Off.


I am taking my own time to do this and this mod was suggested by EvilDragon. (He sent the parts)


I do not appreciate you coming in and s%^&*ing on my efforts.


You are entitled to your own opinion about what button layout we should use, but that does not justify you to try to undermine my efforts.

-God Ginrai

Unnecessary profanity censored in quote.

ED tried with modded parts and stated his opinion.  You demanded a recount, again.  He suggested you try a mock-up yourself if you needed to in order to understand how bad it was.  You took this to mean that there is hope for your demands - there isn't.

So you're carving up plastic, adjusting positions and pitch in an attempt to prove it's possible to jam 6 buttons  in a roughly 3x2 array into that space while continuing to ignore reality.  It puts the left button too close to the nub.  It puts the down button too close to the keyboard.  It puts the top button too close to the speaker.  It puts the 3rd lower rank button too close to the case edge. It offsets and/or messes with the coordinate cross - which the majority want to have stay as is.  So you go with smaller buttons and change the gaps and pound on the lectern shouting, "It's possible!  I know it's possible!  It has to be done if it's possible!"  The sad reality is, it doesn't matter if it's possible.  Even if you can shove the buttons in there sideways, it's not wanted.

As Wizardstan noted, you're in the minority in your demands, no matter how frequently or loudly you make them.  Even IF it were possible to comfortably fit your 6 button arcade controls in (it isn't) the majority of people prefer ED's solution.

Your hostile response to my statement reflects some crazy amounts of desperation to be 'right' on something.  In my unprofessional opinion, it can't be healthy.

Please get help.

 

[edgex004]

For all of the reasons that have already been stated repeatedly, no.


.


ED's 4+2 layout is a better option. I understand that case design is moving forward with the 4+2. Done is done.


Next?

Honestly, Grench... F%^& Off.

I am taking my own time to do this and this mod was suggested by EvilDragon. (He sent the parts)


I do not appreciate you coming in and s%^&*ing on my efforts.


You are entitled to your own opinion about what button layout we should use, but that does not justify you to try to undermine my efforts.

-God Ginrai

Unnecessary profanity censored in quote.


ED tried with modded parts and stated his opinion. You demanded a recount, again. He suggested you try a mock-up yourself if you needed to in order to understand how bad it was. You took this to mean that there is hope for your demands - there isn't.


So you're carving up plastic, adjusting positions and pitch in an attempt to prove it's possible to jam 6 buttons in a roughly 3x2 array into that space while continuing to ignore reality. It puts the left button too close to the nub. It puts the down button too close to the keyboard. It puts the top button too close to the speaker. It puts the 3rd lower rank button too close to the case edge. It offsets and/or messes with the coordinate cross - which the majority want to have stay as is. So you go with smaller buttons and change the gaps and pound on the lectern shouting, "It's possible! I know it's possible! It has to be done if it's possible!" The sad reality is, it doesn't matter if it's possible. Even if you can shove the buttons in there sideways, it's not wanted.


As Wizardstan noted, you're in the minority in your demands, no matter how frequently or loudly you make them. Even IF it were possible to comfortably fit your 6 button arcade controls in (it isn't) the majority of people prefer ED's solution.


Your hostile response to my statement reflects some crazy amounts of desperation to be 'right' on something. In my unprofessional opinion, it can't be healthy.


Please get help.

While I don't support the arcade style 6 or how hard he is pushing for them to be made into realty, I'm all for him having the chance to spend his free time demonstrating whether or not his solution can be made comfortable. I don't believe it is going to work either, but I'd rather he be spending time making something physical than keeping an argument alive with barely any physical evidence for anyone to reference. I think ED was quite wise to allow such a project to be worked on. It silenced the argument for weeks until we could all learn more.

 

[comradekingu]

Spoiler

Speaking of argument, grench, what new is it you bring to the table?

The guy is making an honest attempt at a button layout. All engineering efforts arent dead in the water because one attempt has been made. Microsoft spent 100 million dollars (if i remember right) on researching their xone controller, only to fall back to the same thing again. They probably learnt a thing or two from that. If nothing more than spend their money more wisely.

I dont know what EDs intentions were, but the cause of negative feedback isnt excess of informed decision-making.

Its not like you have to reply in any event.

GG could be proving your point, who knows. The way you argue it make it seem less like you have one. _Less_ than saying nothing. And the _exact same_ as has been said before.

Instead of a rather pointless debate, which is all the more pointless to repeat. Now its being tried, and it went better than expected. I told GG it couldnt be done, and i was wrong. There are probably still many issues, but i applaud him for trying.

Is it better, is it feasible, who knows?

Lets say i was right in bringing up issues, it doesnt mean i have to say it twice or be negative about the actual effort.

My two cents are I like 4 (+2) buttons better, since it ties in with my idea of a desktop layout keyboard. +2 (up and down) are nice buttons to use for adjustment of levels.

I have the distinct feeling that a lot of the sentiment on both sides is bringing up only a one-sided argument. There is no reason to dismiss any effort. I think there is compromise in both solutions. The compromise should never be lack of testing.

And really, shitposting or profanity is just too mediocre to get into.

Its like a race to the bottom with you two.

Is GG stubborn, yes. Does he equally discard evidence to the contrary, sure. But now he is doing work, that is good.

GodGinrai How are the actual buttons? Good actuation, any wobble? What size are they and what are they called?

Does your thumb get more or less stressed with buttons in the new places?

 

[thatgui]

While I don't support the arcade style 6 or how hard he is pushing for them to be made into realty, I'm all for him having the chance to spend his free time demonstrating whether or not his solution can be made comfortable. I don't believe it is going to work either, but I'd rather he be spending time making something physical than keeping an argument alive with barely any physical evidence for anyone to reference. I think ED was quite wise to allow such a project to be worked on. It silenced the argument for weeks until we could all learn more.

I don't get this negativity either. Whats the problem with him doing it ? If he succeeds > fine, ED has something new to consider. If he does not succeed > fine too, all that is lost are some case parts and the shipping costs.

 

[Saber]

While I don't support the arcade style 6 or how hard he is pushing for them to be made into realty, I'm all for him having the chance to spend his free time demonstrating whether or not his solution can be made comfortable. I don't believe it is going to work either, but I'd rather he be spending time making something physical than keeping an argument alive with barely any physical evidence for anyone to reference. I think ED was quite wise to allow such a project to be worked on. It silenced the argument for weeks until we could all learn more.

I don't get this negativity either. Whats the problem with him doing it ? If he succeeds > fine, ED has something new to consider. If he does not succeed > fine too, all that is lost are some case parts and the shipping costs.

+1 as they say on the streets.

It is GG's time to spend on it if he wants as it is anyone's prerogative to spend their cherished time on whatever they want to do. Although I don't think ED will be dissuaded, seeing by example how a properly aligned six button layout could be done maybe for future's sake is worthwhile. 

 

[WizardStan]

Whats the problem with him doing it ?

The problem is that it seems he's already "succeeded". He made the original layout in an image and effectively said "see, it's possible! Now you have no excuse not to do it" to which ED replied "it looks good on paper but actually doing it physically doesn't work".So they arranged for him to actually get the parts to try, and now that he's hacked it together and given it a play he's back to "see, it's possible!"

Except it doesn't matter if it is possible or not: the majority want a 4 button layout, it has to be possible to fit AND not interfere with the 4 button layout.

The negativity he's getting now is prelude to the inevitable "I proved it could work, why did you still go with the inferior 4 button layout?" posts he'll make when he ultimately fails to convince ED his solution is viable. Every post he makes about how to get the 6 buttons on without addressing what the majority (and especially EvilDragon!) want just digs that hole deeper.

Don't get me wrong, I want him to get there: it would be great if everyone can win, getting the perfect four button layout and two extra buttons that also work great for arcade style games. But if he's only focused on physically getting the six buttons on there without even thinking about how a 4 button user will use it then he's not going to succeed, he's only going to hurt himself.

 

[Saber]

Whats the problem with him doing it ?

The problem is that it seems he's already "succeeded". He made the original layout in an image and effectively said "see, it's possible! Now you have no excuse not to do it" to which ED replied "it looks good on paper but actually doing it physically doesn't work".
So they arranged for him to actually get the parts to try, and now that he's hacked it together and given it a play he's back to "see, it's possible!"


Except it doesn't matter if it is possible or not: the majority want a 4 button layout, it has to be possible to fit AND not interfere with the 4 button layout.


The negativity he's getting now is prelude to the inevitable "I proved it could work, why did you still go with the inferior 4 button layout?" posts he'll make when he ultimately fails to convince ED his solution is viable. Every post he makes about how to get the 6 buttons on without addressing what the majority (and especially EvilDragon!) want just digs that hole deeper.


Don't get me wrong, I want him to get there: it would be great if everyone can win, getting the perfect four button layout and two extra buttons that also work great for arcade style games. But if he's only focused on physically getting the six buttons on there without even thinking about how a 4 button user will use it then he's not going to succeed, he's only going to hurt himself.

I think God Ginrai will be okay with the final decision. It's more than likely to have little influence on the Pyra's layout anyways at this point even if he does manage to make it fit. As I said, it is his time to spend on it if he wants. Once ED proclaims the case is now closed officially, they'll be only trace discussions on the matter on the forums. ED is the only arbiter that counts in any of this and personally, I prefer ED's layout.   

 

[edgex004]

Whats the problem with him doing it ?

The problem is that it seems he's already "succeeded". He made the original layout in an image and effectively said "see, it's possible! Now you have no excuse not to do it" to which ED replied "it looks good on paper but actually doing it physically doesn't work".
So they arranged for him to actually get the parts to try, and now that he's hacked it together and given it a play he's back to "see, it's possible!"


Except it doesn't matter if it is possible or not: the majority want a 4 button layout, it has to be possible to fit AND not interfere with the 4 button layout.


The negativity he's getting now is prelude to the inevitable "I proved it could work, why did you still go with the inferior 4 button layout?" posts he'll make when he ultimately fails to convince ED his solution is viable. Every post he makes about how to get the 6 buttons on without addressing what the majority (and especially EvilDragon!) want just digs that hole deeper.


Don't get me wrong, I want him to get there: it would be great if everyone can win, getting the perfect four button layout and two extra buttons that also work great for arcade style games. But if he's only focused on physically getting the six buttons on there without even thinking about how a 4 button user will use it then he's not going to succeed, he's only going to hurt himself.

I think God Ginrai will be okay with the final decision. It's more than likely to have little influence on the Pyra's layout anyways at this point even if he does manage to make it fit. As I said, it is his time to spend on it if he wants. Once ED proclaims the case is now closed officially, they'll be only trace discussions on the matter on the forums. ED is the only arbiter that counts in any of this and personally, I prefer ED's layout.

Also there is one crucial step being forgotten: ED gets sent the case to determine whether it truly "works" or not. GG can't simply pronounce himself right. His prototype must convince ED that it is truly the better way to go.

 

[Grench]

Whats the problem with him doing it ?

The problem is that it seems he's already "succeeded". He made the original layout in an image and effectively said "see, it's possible! Now you have no excuse not to do it" to which ED replied "it looks good on paper but actually doing it physically doesn't work".
So they arranged for him to actually get the parts to try, and now that he's hacked it together and given it a play he's back to "see, it's possible!"


Except it doesn't matter if it is possible or not: the majority want a 4 button layout, it has to be possible to fit AND not interfere with the 4 button layout.


The negativity he's getting now is prelude to the inevitable "I proved it could work, why did you still go with the inferior 4 button layout?" posts he'll make when he ultimately fails to convince ED his solution is viable. Every post he makes about how to get the 6 buttons on without addressing what the majority (and especially EvilDragon!) want just digs that hole deeper.


Don't get me wrong, I want him to get there: it would be great if everyone can win, getting the perfect four button layout and two extra buttons that also work great for arcade style games. But if he's only focused on physically getting the six buttons on there without even thinking about how a 4 button user will use it then he's not going to succeed, he's only going to hurt himself.

I think God Ginrai will be okay with the final decision. It's more than likely to have little influence on the Pyra's layout anyways at this point even if he does manage to make it fit. As I said, it is his time to spend on it if he wants. Once ED proclaims the case is now closed officially, they'll be only trace discussions on the matter on the forums. ED is the only arbiter that counts in any of this and personally, I prefer ED's layout.

Also there is one crucial step being forgotten: ED gets sent the case to determine whether it truly "works" or not. GG can't simply pronounce himself right. His prototype must convince ED that it is truly the better way to go.

It would have to be 'enough better' to justify delaying the entire project by 2 Months and the thousands of dollars in mold changes and testing cycle - unlikely.  It would also need to convince a big chunk of the other larger contingent of people who want the 4 button cross to remain unmolested - unlikely.

GG's welcome to carve cases - he can carve a duck for all I care.  It isn't going to change the fact that ED's 4+2 button solution is elegant, novel and superior to GG's 2 'rows' of 3 buttons crammed in offset, twisted and sideways.

We already have a superior solution.  Live with it.  Move on.  If you want to mod your case and key mat on your personal Pyra some day, you're welcome to.

 

[edgex004]

We all agree it is unlikely. Chances for his layout are slim to none. I still prefer this over the photo shops and paragraphs of text getting thrown all around.

 

[sebt3]

could someone point that craiginator thread to edgex004 or any of the keymapping thread