The case of the case.

Discussion in 'Pyra News' started by EvilDragon, Apr 14, 2014.

  1. edgex004

    edgex004 Advanced Member

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    Ah I haven't been keeping track of those. I tend to adapt to whatever key map is provided. Is that where the hot mess of button arguments has been sequestered?
     
  2. Glyph Reader

    Glyph Reader Member

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    Wow, this thread feels hostile right now. 

    I like GG's layout.  The arrangement is quite pleasing to me.  I also like ED's layout.  That arrangement also works for me. 

    While I would love to have GG's layout, it does not seem feasible for (the initial iteration of) the Pyra.  However, it is GG's time to use, and his work can be used for the next device ED makes. 

    Grench, while I feel your stance is a bit too hostile, I understand your intentions.  Just understand that is is his time, and that it is not necessarily worthless to work on it. 

    Good luck GG! 

    -Glyph Reader
     
  3. Tenka

    Tenka Snakes and Fish

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    What are Grench's intentions?  It sounds like he's just trying to get a rise out of the underdogs, again and again.  He doesn't seem to be trying to hide behind standard civility, but still doesn't afraid of judging someone else for lacking it.  I wonder if he's one of those invisible to themselves people, I hope that someday I can feel as sure of myself here.
     
  4. Natsu

    Natsu Advanced Member

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    Like I said before, he seems to be "hostile" to any change.
     
  5. Silent-Hunter

    Silent-Hunter Hardcore Member

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    Personally, I like ED's layout. GG's looks like the buttons would get in the way. Of course, I would certainly still buy a Pyra whichever layout gets used.
     
  6. God Ginrai

    God Ginrai Godmaster

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    I do not particularly have problems with this, assuming they are positioned correctly along the path the thumb takes.

    I am not trying to just prove that 6-button is possible while ignoring the wish for the 4-button cross. I would have much a much easier time doing that if I could ignore the wishes for the 4-button cross to continue to exist. All of my designs were made with this in mind. I'm not sure where you think I went off course from that.

    Rather, my hostile response to your statement simply shows that I am fed up with your shit. Everyone else who disagrees with this layout has taken a civil approach to arguing against it, unlike you who has continuously belabored that ED's version is the end-all be-all like some whining infant. As I said before, you are entitled to your opinion, but that is no reason to just piss all over the efforts of others, which is exactly what you have been trying to do here.

    I just have cardboard behind them, so I can't give any comments about wobble and actuation. The buttons are DS Lite buttons. I can't really test how stressed my thumb would get due to only having the front piece, however, in my tests, all of the positions have felt pretty natural, and the cross feels to be more under where my thumb naturally rests when holding a device than the Pandora's cross was.

    The only reason I am posting my revisions here is to let those who do want to see the progress know that it is happening. It all comes down to whether EvilDragon gives it the ok in the end, which I will find out after I send it to him.

    On another note, I finished revision 3 earlier. This one is likely as close as perfect as someone with no modding skills like me can get it:

    http://p.twipple.jp/O6QTH

    I tested how it felt moving from button to button, as well as doing the heel-and-toe method that people were discussing earlier. As far as I can tell, the keyboard should not get in the way of the pressing of any of the buttons with the base of your thumb. As for other buttons getting in the way, I noticed that the only time you even feel the other buttons when making a press are when you are trying to press X and Y, B and X2, A and B, or Y and B2 at the same time. And you only feel them, you do not depress them. If you literally flatten your thumb against the plastic like you are holding the device rather than pressing the buttons, then you will press the buttons, but if you are just pressing the buttons like you normally would, you should not depress them at all.

    -God Ginrai
     
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  7. sebt3

    sebt3 homebrew player (P. & C.)

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    The a button is too close to the nub to allow confortable nub usage... beside I find your buttons rather small (but hey I've large hands)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2014
  8. Granitehead

    Granitehead Advanced Member

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    @Ginrai: How big are your thumbs? It seems like mine for example are small, so I wouldn't be able to test such a layout for the majority of people, a design could work perfectly for me while others can't use it at all. Are yours big?

    Maybe some of the people with bigger thumbs should post some numbers. Mine are about 23mm wide at their widest point, i.e. near the joint, when I press them onto a flat surface (pretty hard, to make them expand as much as they possibly could while pressing them onto buttons) and measure with a caliper.
     
  9. rygD

    rygD Nihilistic Mystic

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    My right thumb is slightly wider (24mm, maybe a tiny bit more, but I don't have fancy measuring tools).  For games I use the very tip of my thumbs, which can fit into tiny places, so thumb width in that area does not affect my gameplay.  I prefer larger buttons, so around Pandora size is good for me, but that does not mean smaller buttons can't be comfortable and usable.  I would prefer larger buttons in the absence of having an option or the ability to test the smaller buttons.
     
  10. God Ginrai

    God Ginrai Godmaster

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     What do you mean by this? Do you think your thumb would hit the A button? If that is your meaning, then I am fairly sure that you do not have to worry about that. When using the nub, your thumb should not come into contact with the A button due to it approaching the nub from above and resting on the nub when using the nub.

     My thumbs are probably around medium-sized, I would say. I don't have a caliper, so I can't really measure them for you.

    -God Ginrai
     
  11. Kiga

    Kiga Active Member

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    I still don't understand the necessity of such a mockup, why don't you simply make an accurate drawing with real Pyra dimensions? That would be much more relevant.

    You could even firstly draw a valid layout then put buttons in a piece of plastic and test if it is comfortable.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2014
  12. FaeMinx

    FaeMinx Rainbow Liberation Instigation

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    I'm liking version 3. But unfortunately, as good as it looks, I would still need to try it before I could vote on it over ED'S layout... I guess all that could be done now it to send that back to ED and see how he feels about it.


    Probably too late for the Pyra, but perhaps the next device...


    =~. O =
     
  13. bzar

    bzar A Commando

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    The latest revision actually looks quite nice. The thing I'm most worried about is holding the console for a long period of time while keeping my thumb in my usual neutral position (over Y-B on a SNES controller, would be top-left bottom-left in your layout). Does the position require reaching if I support the unit from below with the intermediate and distal phalanges of my fingers?
     
  14. thatgui

    thatgui Advanced Member

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    I still don't get it: At somepoint he finishes/needs to finish finetuning his layout and sends it back to Ed. Ed can then evaluate it, and give reasons why he either accepted it or dismissed it. God Ginrai has to live with it either way. And if he isn't able to, who cares? If he constantly complains about that single aspect, people will ignore him eventually and sooner or later he himself will get tired of it.

    The leftmost button looks too close to the nub, I have doubts that this will work with the new nubs. Is there a reasons why the rightmost button looks a bit "out of line", for resons of symmetry I would have put it closer the the middle button in the lower row. Are the buttons smaller than the ones the Pandora has ? They also look closer to one another than on the Pandora.
    Currently I could only see such a layout work if the nubs would be moved a bit to the center of the device (which looks feasable to me).

    I disagree, while a properly drawn layout ist the first thing to do, you still need to test wether they accomodate the natural movement of a human thumb (best: average sized and with an average limit of movement). Big companies spend a whole lot of money on testgroups and send a controller design in an almost endless "minimal changes" cycle in order to "perfect" controller designs.
     
  15. Kiga

    Kiga Active Member

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    We firstly need to know if buttons are enough far from nubs, far from each others, perfectly aligned... so we need a drawing with measurement, not an imprecise mockup which can be felt only by God Ginrai. With an accurate drawing which proof that it works spatially, you don't even need a Pandora case, you just have to take a piece of cardboard (plus cotton in the the carton so that you can push the buttons) and make a mockup to test the feel
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2014
  16. thatgui

    thatgui Advanced Member

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    I guess the problem ist that no one really knows the exact measurements the Pyras case will have in that area at the moment, and time is somewhat of essence as after a certain point in time alterations won't be possible anymore: So while the best way for God Ginrai would be as you suggested, he has to make do with what he has.
     
  17. Kiga

    Kiga Active Member

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    ED knows all these measurments, that's why I think he send these cases to God Ginrai only so that he can figure out that his layout is out of the question.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2014
  18. Natsu

    Natsu Advanced Member

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    Looks like you can use it as 4 buttons without the other buttons getting in the way and still have this layout. I like it.Just in case, can you do this with the last two buttons made smaller?
     
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  19. sebt3

    sebt3 homebrew player (P. & C.)

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    I tested it on my own device (well I did not carved my case :D , just sitck a sheet of paper at the (a) button's place) and I'm sure I'll have accidental (a) button click when playing with the right nub. Albeit my thumbs exceed the nubs surface all over which might not be the case for you...
     
  20. thatgui

    thatgui Advanced Member

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    If if thats the case (which I doubt), it is not something God Ginrai could take advantage of.
     

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