The case of the case.

[edgex004]

could someone point that craiginator thread to edgex004 or any of the keymapping thread

Ah I haven't been keeping track of those. I tend to adapt to whatever key map is provided. Is that where the hot mess of button arguments has been sequestered?

 

[Glyph Reader]

Wow, this thread feels hostile right now. 

I like GG's layout.  The arrangement is quite pleasing to me.  I also like ED's layout.  That arrangement also works for me. 

While I would love to have GG's layout, it does not seem feasible for (the initial iteration of) the Pyra.  However, it is GG's time to use, and his work can be used for the next device ED makes. 

Grench, while I feel your stance is a bit too hostile, I understand your intentions.  Just understand that is is his time, and that it is not necessarily worthless to work on it. 

Good luck GG! 

-Glyph Reader

 

[Tenka]

Grench, while I feel your stance is a bit too hostile, I understand your intentions.  Just understand that is is his time, and that it is not necessarily worthless to work on it.

What are Grench's intentions?  It sounds like he's just trying to get a rise out of the underdogs, again and again.  He doesn't seem to be trying to hide behind standard civility, but still doesn't afraid of judging someone else for lacking it.  I wonder if he's one of those invisible to themselves people, I hope that someday I can feel as sure of myself here.

 

[Natsu]

Like I said before, he seems to be "hostile" to any change.

 

[Silent-Hunter]

Personally, I like ED's layout. GG's looks like the buttons would get in the way. Of course, I would certainly still buy a Pyra whichever layout gets used.

 

[God Ginrai]

Thank you for your continued efforts God Ginrai, I'm always looking forward to each next thing. How many people do you think it would bother if the rightmost two buttons were a little closer to the middle two than the middle two are to the leftmost two? I don't like that, but I wouldn't mind accepting it. I may have seen someone say that their thumb was much too large and would press them over there, but I'm not imagining them any closer than in EvilDragon's current layout, and less in the way of any other button considering they do not surround any of them.

Do you, God Ginrai, personally feel greatly opposed to the two new buttons remaining as little as they are in EvilDragon's current layout, as long as they are in the right places? I would feel fine with that, but I'm just trying to make as many acceptable compromises as possible so as to satisfy as many uninterested people as can be. I realize you cannot physically test that with only DS Lite and Pandora buttons.

I do not particularly have problems with this, assuming they are positioned correctly along the path the thumb takes.

I am not alone in this, most of us (from previous polls) do not want an arcade style 6 button layout if it means sacrificing the natural 4 button cross layout in any way. You're so focused on just trying to prove that it is physically possible to get the layout you want that you're forgetting the fear that your two buttons will get in the way of those that don't want them, and those that don't want them are the majority.

I am not trying to just prove that 6-button is possible while ignoring the wish for the 4-button cross. I would have much a much easier time doing that if I could ignore the wishes for the 4-button cross to continue to exist. All of my designs were made with this in mind. I'm not sure where you think I went off course from that.

Your hostile response to my statement reflects some crazy amounts of desperation to be 'right' on something. In my unprofessional opinion, it can't be healthy.

Rather, my hostile response to your statement simply shows that I am fed up with your shit. Everyone else who disagrees with this layout has taken a civil approach to arguing against it, unlike you who has continuously belabored that ED's version is the end-all be-all like some whining infant. As I said before, you are entitled to your opinion, but that is no reason to just piss all over the efforts of others, which is exactly what you have been trying to do here.

GodGinrai How are the actual buttons? Good actuation, any wobble? What size are they and what are they called?

Does your thumb get more or less stressed with buttons in the new places?

I just have cardboard behind them, so I can't give any comments about wobble and actuation. The buttons are DS Lite buttons. I can't really test how stressed my thumb would get due to only having the front piece, however, in my tests, all of the positions have felt pretty natural, and the cross feels to be more under where my thumb naturally rests when holding a device than the Pandora's cross was.

Whats the problem with him doing it ?

The problem is that it seems he's already "succeeded". He made the original layout in an image and effectively said "see, it's possible! Now you have no excuse not to do it" to which ED replied "it looks good on paper but actually doing it physically doesn't work".So they arranged for him to actually get the parts to try, and now that he's hacked it together and given it a play he's back to "see, it's possible!"

Except it doesn't matter if it is possible or not: the majority want a 4 button layout, it has to be possible to fit AND not interfere with the 4 button layout.

The negativity he's getting now is prelude to the inevitable "I proved it could work, why did you still go with the inferior 4 button layout?" posts he'll make when he ultimately fails to convince ED his solution is viable. Every post he makes about how to get the 6 buttons on without addressing what the majority (and especially EvilDragon!) want just digs that hole deeper.

Don't get me wrong, I want him to get there: it would be great if everyone can win, getting the perfect four button layout and two extra buttons that also work great for arcade style games. But if he's only focused on physically getting the six buttons on there without even thinking about how a 4 button user will use it then he's not going to succeed, he's only going to hurt himself.

The only reason I am posting my revisions here is to let those who do want to see the progress know that it is happening. It all comes down to whether EvilDragon gives it the ok in the end, which I will find out after I send it to him.

On another note, I finished revision 3 earlier. This one is likely as close as perfect as someone with no modding skills like me can get it:

http://p.twipple.jp/O6QTH

I tested how it felt moving from button to button, as well as doing the heel-and-toe method that people were discussing earlier. As far as I can tell, the keyboard should not get in the way of the pressing of any of the buttons with the base of your thumb. As for other buttons getting in the way, I noticed that the only time you even feel the other buttons when making a press are when you are trying to press X and Y, B and X2, A and B, or Y and B2 at the same time. And you only feel them, you do not depress them. If you literally flatten your thumb against the plastic like you are holding the device rather than pressing the buttons, then you will press the buttons, but if you are just pressing the buttons like you normally would, you should not depress them at all.

-God Ginrai

 

[sebt3]

http://p.twipple.jp/O6QTH

The a button is too close to the nub to allow confortable nub usage... beside I find your buttons rather small (but hey I've large hands)

 

[Granitehead]

@Ginrai: How big are your thumbs? It seems like mine for example are small, so I wouldn't be able to test such a layout for the majority of people, a design could work perfectly for me while others can't use it at all. Are yours big?

Maybe some of the people with bigger thumbs should post some numbers. Mine are about 23mm wide at their widest point, i.e. near the joint, when I press them onto a flat surface (pretty hard, to make them expand as much as they possibly could while pressing them onto buttons) and measure with a caliper.

 

[rygD]

@Ginrai: How big are your thumbs? It seems like mine for example are small, so I wouldn't be able to test such a layout for the majority of people, a design could work perfectly for me while others can't use it at all. Are yours big?


Maybe some of the people with bigger thumbs should post some numbers. Mine are about 23mm wide at their widest point, i.e. near the joint, when I press them onto a flat surface (pretty hard, to make them expand as much as they possibly could while pressing them onto buttons) and measure with a caliper.

My right thumb is slightly wider (24mm, maybe a tiny bit more, but I don't have fancy measuring tools).  For games I use the very tip of my thumbs, which can fit into tiny places, so thumb width in that area does not affect my gameplay.  I prefer larger buttons, so around Pandora size is good for me, but that does not mean smaller buttons can't be comfortable and usable.  I would prefer larger buttons in the absence of having an option or the ability to test the smaller buttons.

 

[God Ginrai]

http://p.twipple.jp/O6QTH

The a button is too close to the nub to allow confortable nub usage... beside I find your buttons rather small (but hey I've large hands)

 What do you mean by this? Do you think your thumb would hit the A button? If that is your meaning, then I am fairly sure that you do not have to worry about that. When using the nub, your thumb should not come into contact with the A button due to it approaching the nub from above and resting on the nub when using the nub.

@Ginrai: How big are your thumbs? It seems like mine for example are small, so I wouldn't be able to test such a layout for the majority of people, a design could work perfectly for me while others can't use it at all. Are yours big?

Maybe some of the people with bigger thumbs should post some numbers. Mine are about 23mm wide at their widest point, i.e. near the joint, when I press them onto a flat surface (pretty hard, to make them expand as much as they possibly could while pressing them onto buttons) and measure with a caliper.

 My thumbs are probably around medium-sized, I would say. I don't have a caliper, so I can't really measure them for you.

-God Ginrai

 

[Kiga]

I still don't understand the necessity of such a mockup, why don't you simply make an accurate drawing with real Pyra dimensions? That would be much more relevant.

You could even firstly draw a valid layout then put buttons in a piece of plastic and test if it is comfortable.

 

[FaeMinx]

I'm liking version 3. But unfortunately, as good as it looks, I would still need to try it before I could vote on it over ED'S layout... I guess all that could be done now it to send that back to ED and see how he feels about it.


Probably too late for the Pyra, but perhaps the next device...


=~. O =

 

[bzar]

The latest revision actually looks quite nice. The thing I'm most worried about is holding the console for a long period of time while keeping my thumb in my usual neutral position (over Y-B on a SNES controller, would be top-left bottom-left in your layout). Does the position require reaching if I support the unit from below with the intermediate and distal phalanges of my fingers?

 

[thatgui]

Whats the problem with him doing it ?

The problem is that it seems he's already "succeeded". He made the original layout in an image and effectively said "see, it's possible! Now you have no excuse not to do it" to which ED replied "it looks good on paper but actually doing it physically doesn't work".So they arranged for him to actually get the parts to try, and now that he's hacked it together and given it a play he's back to "see, it's possible!"

Except it doesn't matter if it is possible or not: the majority want a 4 button layout, it has to be possible to fit AND not interfere with the 4 button layout.

The negativity he's getting now is prelude to the inevitable "I proved it could work, why did you still go with the inferior 4 button layout?" posts he'll make when he ultimately fails to convince ED his solution is viable. Every post he makes about how to get the 6 buttons on without addressing what the majority (and especially EvilDragon!) want just digs that hole deeper.

Don't get me wrong, I want him to get there: it would be great if everyone can win, getting the perfect four button layout and two extra buttons that also work great for arcade style games. But if he's only focused on physically getting the six buttons on there without even thinking about how a 4 button user will use it then he's not going to succeed, he's only going to hurt himself.

I still don't get it: At somepoint he finishes/needs to finish finetuning his layout and sends it back to Ed. Ed can then evaluate it, and give reasons why he either accepted it or dismissed it. God Ginrai has to live with it either way. And if he isn't able to, who cares? If he constantly complains about that single aspect, people will ignore him eventually and sooner or later he himself will get tired of it.

http://p.twipple.jp/O6QTH

I tested how it felt moving from button to button, as well as doing the heel-and-toe method that people were discussing earlier. As far as I can tell, the keyboard should not get in the way of the pressing of any of the buttons with the base of your thumb. As for other buttons getting in the way, I noticed that the only time you even feel the other buttons when making a press are when you are trying to press X and Y, B and X2, A and B, or Y and B2 at the same time. And you only feel them, you do not depress them. If you literally flatten your thumb against the plastic like you are holding the device rather than pressing the buttons, then you will press the buttons, but if you are just pressing the buttons like you normally would, you should not depress them at all.

-God Ginrai

The leftmost button looks too close to the nub, I have doubts that this will work with the new nubs. Is there a reasons why the rightmost button looks a bit "out of line", for resons of symmetry I would have put it closer the the middle button in the lower row. Are the buttons smaller than the ones the Pandora has ? They also look closer to one another than on the Pandora.
Currently I could only see such a layout work if the nubs would be moved a bit to the center of the device (which looks feasable to me).

I still don't understand the necessity of such a mockup, why don't you simply make an accurate drawing with real Pyra dimensions? That would be much more relevant.

You could even firstly draw a valid layout then put buttons in a piece of plastic and test if it is comfortable.

I disagree, while a properly drawn layout ist the first thing to do, you still need to test wether they accomodate the natural movement of a human thumb (best: average sized and with an average limit of movement). Big companies spend a whole lot of money on testgroups and send a controller design in an almost endless "minimal changes" cycle in order to "perfect" controller designs.

 

[Kiga]

I still don't understand the necessity of such a mockup, why don't you simply make an accurate drawing with real Pyra dimensions? That would be much more relevant.


You could even firstly draw a valid layout then put buttons in a piece of plastic and test if it is comfortable.

I disagree, while a properly drawn layout ist the first thing to do, you still need to test wether they accomodate the natural movement of a human thumb (best: average sized and with an average limit of movement). Big companies spend a whole lot of money on testgroups and send a controller design in an almost endless "minimal changes" cycle in order to "perfect" controller designs.

We firstly need to know if buttons are enough far from nubs, far from each others, perfectly aligned... so we need a drawing with measurement, not an imprecise mockup which can be felt only by God Ginrai. With an accurate drawing which proof that it works spatially, you don't even need a Pandora case, you just have to take a piece of cardboard (plus cotton in the the carton so that you can push the buttons) and make a mockup to test the feel

 

[thatgui]

I still don't understand the necessity of such a mockup, why don't you simply make an accurate drawing with real Pyra dimensions? That would be much more relevant.

You could even firstly draw a valid layout then put buttons in a piece of plastic and test if it is comfortable.

I disagree, while a properly drawn layout ist the first thing to do, you still need to test wether they accomodate the natural movement of a human thumb (best: average sized and with an average limit of movement). Big companies spend a whole lot of money on testgroups and send a controller design in an almost endless "minimal changes" cycle in order to "perfect" controller designs.

 We firstly need to know if buttons are enough far from nubs, far from each others, perfectly aligned... so we need a drawing with measurement, not an imprecise mockup which only God Ginrai can feel. With an accurate drawing which proof that it works spatially, you don't even need a Pandora case, you just have to take a piece of cardboard and make a mockup to test the feel.

I guess the problem ist that no one really knows the exact measurements the Pyras case will have in that area at the moment, and time is somewhat of essence as after a certain point in time alterations won't be possible anymore: So while the best way for God Ginrai would be as you suggested, he has to make do with what he has.

 

[Kiga]

ED knows all these measurments, that's why I think he send these cases to God Ginrai only so that he can figure out that his layout is out of the question.

 

[Natsu]

http://p.twipple.jp/O6QTH

-God Ginrai

Looks like you can use it as 4 buttons without the other buttons getting in the way and still have this layout. I like it.Just in case, can you do this with the last two buttons made smaller?

 

[sebt3]

What do you mean by this? Do you think your thumb would hit the A button? If that is your meaning, then I am fairly sure that you do not have to worry about that. When using the nub, your thumb should not come into contact with the A button due to it approaching the nub from above and resting on the nub when using the nub.

I tested it on my own device (well I did not carved my case , just sitck a sheet of paper at the (a) button's place) and I'm sure I'll have accidental (a) button click when playing with the right nub. Albeit my thumbs exceed the nubs surface all over which might not be the case for you...

 

[thatgui]

ED knows all these measurments, that's why I think he send these cases to God Ginrai only so that he can figure out that his layout is out of the question.

If if thats the case (which I doubt), it is not something God Ginrai could take advantage of.