And suddenly it works.

[Swordfish II]

Can't the keyboard discussion die already

 

[bzar]

We could create a mandatory quiz regarding the previous discussion on the subject anyone wanting to further the discussion would need to pass first, or their posts would be deleted. I'm sure the number of dead horse related beatings and records made physically unusable would diminish.

EDIT: Point is, I doubt there's much anyone could bring to that discussion that was not already discussed and pointed out before.

 

[FaeMinx]

Well some of us have moved on, but there are those that keep on revisiting it.

They must be terribly attached, refusing to listen to the words of wisdom 'let go'.

Attachment is like a chain around your neck...
Accept and move on, ...it will do you a world of good.

 

[oskda]

Calm down. The keyboard, believe it or not IS international and does work beyond English, German and French.

You haven't cath what I am meaning.

I know we can compose a lot of symbols, more than composed letter we see PRINTED ON that keyboard, but the PROBLEM IS that a lot of people will see a keyboard for GERMANS, for GERMAN language (even although it isn't QWERTZ but QWERTY) and they will go away.

Do you unerstand me? I know we can compose, even redefine all keyboard (although then we loose printed symbols usability), but normal people watching Pyra for 1st time will see a product localized for German language, a roduct for Germans, and they will move on without givin Pyra a chance. They will lost Pyra posibilities and Pyra would lost a bigger comunity/market/visibility/etc.

«I wasn't even able to find a layout editor or solid picture that represented the final keyboard layout»: is it this? http://pandoralive.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/renderkeyboard.jpeg

No, AltGr, which is really just, RightAlt, is not labeled as such and will be turned off by default. It can be activated, but you probably won't want or need to. Frankly, Compose works better than AltGr. Yes, dead key diacritics were given consideration.

«German and French were made easier by housing commonly needed characters on a section of the Fn layer. Those facts do not interfere with English use OR with international use»: we know it, but a lot of people will see a German keyboard, and will go away without more investigation.

«Compose is still present. It is at Fn+space»: I know it; (look at the above picture). In German you can type German composed letters diectly (type Fn and key with that special symbol on orange), TWO KEYS; on other languages you have to type Fn key, then "Compose" (space key), then two more keys to compose: FOUR KEYS, while in a US international layout we only press 2 keys for most composed letter in near all western languages (with Latin base). Sorry but you are exactly SHOWING US this is a keyboard for GERMANS.

I write a lot of in tech blogs in my mother language, and I will speak about Pyra, but really I can't defend its keyboard (printed) layout.

«In fact, nearly every key has up to 16 distinct functional capabilities using normal, shift, Fn, Alt & Ctrl modifiers that can be set to a specific outcome»: we know, but most "normal" people will see a German keyboard for Germans (with "normal" I mean people not knowing what we know).

«What is your primary language? Maybe we can help you understand how the keyboard can work for you?»: You didn't understand me: I HAVE NO PROBLEM [1] the PROBLEM is for Pyra because "normal" people will see a German keyboard for Germans.

[1]: My mother language is Spanish (and here a normal keyboard use dead keys, except for ñ, we compose á é í ó etc with dead key). But if I buy a computer with Spanish keyboard I change it for US keyboard because it is more ergonomic, has symbols in better place for programming and tech, is the standard in retro computing I love, and I can type in any western language with easy: this layout (US International) is made for that: INTERNATIONAL (obviously with QWERTY base as it is the most used base), no "better" for xxx language and worse for others.

I must insist: I have no problem: in my normal live I use a US keyboard (with international layout in soft) to type in my other languages. I know in Pyra we can compose, redefine, etc, etc, but that is not the problem I am speaking of: the problem is that to most people it won't look an INTERNATIONAL and "neutral" keyboard but a keyboard for Germans, and a lot of people then won't consider Pyra, they will go away: that is the problem.[/QUOTE]

 

[bzar]

Oskda: We've been over this. Go read the hundred or so pages of previous discussion, we don't need to repeat it here. Everything you've said just now has been discussed over multiple times. If, after reading all that you still feel you have something new to contribute, be my guest.

 

[oskda]

Such an overlay might help if one like to change the layout, though I'm not sure if there is enough space between the Keys for readable Letters. From the renders, it looks like the gap would be somewhere between 1 and 2 mm. Also the alternative layout next to the original one might be confusing.

But if the space might big enough, you could make self made overlays not just for custom keyboard layouts but also for specific games. Like the overlays for some home computers/consoles like, Texas Instruments(so things come full circle ) 99/4a and Interton vc4000.

So that would add an additional layer of retro-ness

For example some HP calculators and pocket computers had that system: the were designed to insert a keyboard overlay. For example original HP 48 serie has that system. One overlay example: http://ep.yimg.com/ay/calculatorsou...rd-overlay-for-hp-48-series-calculators-1.gif
Even there are blank overlays where you can write/print what you want.
In above picture you can see a small protrusion on overlay to fix it to machine case. In Pyra you could place a overlay, but there is no system to grip/fix it to Pyra case.

On other side an overlay in Pyra doesn't solve the worst Pyra problem for me: that problem for me is that a lot of people watching Pyra for 1st time will see a keyboard designed for Germans (with a lot of Germans keys printed on it) and will go away without more consideration.
[doublepost=1457696843,1457696279][/doublepost]

Not sure why oskda wants a keyboard that offers less language support (that make up the majority of the community at the time it was created) on the second layer.

As others you didn't understand what I wanted to say.

I don't speak about "less language support" but about more international look; about not looking like a keyboard designed for Germans (or mostly for Germans).

And, yes, we know actual community is mostly from those countries but it seems some of you want it continue mostly only in those countries, instead of getting a lot more international and BIGGER.

 

[PSC]

For example some HP calculators and pocket computers had that system: the were designed to insert a keyboard overlay. For example original HP 48 serie has that system. One overlay example: http://ep.yimg.com/ay/calculatorsou...rd-overlay-for-hp-48-series-calculators-1.gif
Even there are blank overlays where you can write/print what you want.
In above picture you can see a small protrusion on overlay to fix it to machine case. In Pyra you could place a overlay, but there is no system to grip/fix it to Pyra case.

On other side an overlay in Pyra doesn't solve the worst Pyra problem for me: that problem for me is that a lot of people watching Pyra for 1st time will see a keyboard designed for Germans (with a lot of Germans keys printed on it) and will go away without more consideration.

Is that hard for you to accept there are some German characters? May be there is a solution, produce some unprinted keys, I means blank keys, then whoever want it, they could buy it alone.
[doublepost=1457697276,1457696948][/doublepost]

Is that hard for you to accept there are some German characters? May be there is a solution, produce some unprinted keys, I means blank keys, then whoever want it, they could buy it alone.

There have too many languages need to support, for example, Japanese, Chinese. Even the international keyboard is not covered everyone's need. So how about leave this to customer, show them the choice of blank keys, print something by themselves.

 

[oskda]

Well you made heavy use of capitalized letters, with is often considered shouting (a high frequency of emphasis appears "loud" easily)

When you write a text (or line/lines) all capitals you are shouting, but when you write only one or some few words in capitalized letters you are remarking those letters, like when you write them in blod charcters. At least I understand in that way (I hate people writing all in capitalized letters). It is simply faster to type a word in capitals than to select it and "blod"-type it.

 

[TrashyMG]

that problem for me is that a lot of people watching Pyra for 1st time will see a keyboard designed for Germans (with a lot of Germans keys printed on it) and will go away without more consideration.

Pure fiction.

 

[oskda]

Can't the keyboard discussion die already

... I'm sure the number of dead horse related beatings and records made physically unusable would diminish.

Well some of us have moved on, but there are those that keep on revisiting it....

Oskda: We've been over this. Go read the hundred or so pages of previous discussion....

Now I show my FIRST comment (I wasn't expecting more):

[I was answering to other comment] That is a closed question: they have decided to use a VERY GERMANIC KEYBOARAD, instead of using a more INTERNATIONAl and NEUTRAL keyboard. And I think this can hurt some Pyra sales and market, as some people would see a GERMANIC keyborad for Germans, not something international
.......
This is yet decided and Pyra will have Germanic keyboard.

So I said to other member it was a CLOSED QUESTION, they decided to go with a German-looking keyboard and it is done. In my opinnion it will hurt Pyra sales/community/etc, but it is a yet taken decision.

Is this dead horse thinking? No, I don't think so. Even I think to ignore, to try to forget and move on, is dead brain, but a respectable decision.

I don't know what brain can think I want to resurrect dead horse (keyboard discussion), as in a crystalline way I said in my first message it is closed, decided, over subject.

 

[TrashyMG]

I don't know what brain can think I want to resurrect dead horse (keyboard discussion)

You are talking about the keyboard, causing two pages worth of discussion about it thus making it essentially a keyboard thread... so pull those defibrillator paddles away from that dead horse.

 

[Wally]

Omg omg omg omg NO.

 

[oskda]

Pure fiction.

I am west European, my mother language uses a lot of letters with diacritic symbols, so I am used for those. Even with this I see a Germanic keyboard in Pyra.

If I, used to letters with diacritic symbols, see a German keyboard, what will see for example the common people of English speaking countries -a market a lot of times bigger than German market-?

Try to sell a German keyboard (but QWERTY instead of QWERTZ) in USA, UK, Australia, etc, etc... you can type English in that keyboard (and it is QWERTY so you don't need to change/learn nothing) but you will sell near zero.

Of course, this is "fiction": no one, even crazy, would try to sell such a keyboard in those places.

Now move on: most Pyra users will be German/French... and we must be happy with this smaller community... and move on.

I end this here. I have expressed my opinion (German-looking keyboard => less sales, less community), although a lot of people didn't understand what I was saying. Of course others have other opinion: some, like you, think a German-looking keyboard is no problem at all... and I disagree.

 

[bzar]

You seem pretty sure of your claims. Where's your evidence?

 

[TrashyMG]

Try to sell a German (but QWERTY instead of QWERTZ) in USA, UK, Australia, etc, etc... you can type English in that keyboard (and it is QWERTY so you don't need to change/learn nothing) but you will sell near zero.

Well to be fair I type on 30 year old IBM model M keyboards, so no need to buy a new keyboard... but I'd find the keyboard layout different and interesting, something I could show off to my geek friends with....

Of course this is just speculation just like your claim is.

 

[WizardStan]

Even with this I see a Germanic keyboard.

So you aren't going to buy a Pyra then? Are you walking away because it happens to have some German (not Germanic, they are different) characters on it?

 

[matzesu]

As long the german charakters are only on second layer (via FN) it should be ok for most peaple..
Whe arent the bad germans anymore since long long time, the generation where lots works for the nazis, they all dye in this and the next decade due too to much age..
Im a German from the 80tes, im even ditnt go too the military..

Also Umlauts are quit popular in Metall, like in "Motörhead" par exemple..

 

[der_gabe]

I, for one, am completely satisfied with what I have learned a couple of pages ago, vis à vis the possibility of making custom keymats. It seems clear to me that, even if no alternative/blank keymat run should ever be made by ED or anyone else, people who really want it will be able to make their own keymats to their heart's content.

I thought I could nip this discussion in the bud, by asking about this, I really did.

I accept that people have very different and very strong opinions on this issue and won't budge on it.
But I really believed that the perspective of making (or getting someone else to make) a custom keymat (and maybe even other custom parts) would be enough to calm the minds of anyone still unhappy with the final decision on the matter. This is, or rather will be, a supremely moddable device! Add to that the large and very widely and diversely technically skilled community that's already in place and I have no doubt that we will see all sorts of hacks, tricks and inventive ways to mod and customise the Pyra in ways I can't even imagine right now.

Why, then, would people still complain and argue about a single default part, which they can fully expect to be able to replace with something more to their liking? Probably only a few months after the first large batch has been delivered. So I thought.

I was naive.

To those with an axe to grind, the joy is in the grinding.

Grind on you crazy diamonds...

 

[oskda]

As long the german charakters are only on second layer (via FN) it should be ok for most peaple..
Whe arent the bad germans anymore since long long time, the generation where lots works for the nazis, they all dye in this and the next decade due too to much age..
Im a German from the 80tes, im even ditnt go too the military..

Also Umlauts are quit popular in Metall, like in "Motörhead" par exemple..

My friend, this is not against Germans. We love German products, "made in Germany" is highly valuable, and I like Germans, but most people don't want a German (although QWERTY) keyboard; and a lot of people will see a German keyboard when looking at Pyra, no a neutral or international keyboard. We know we can compose other western languages (typing 4 keys :O instead of only 2 like in German characters), and we can redefine keyboard, but common people will see a German keyboard and will take away.

When you look at that keyboard, those German characters glow http://pandoralive.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/renderkeyboard.jpeg
and common people will see that German keyboard. It is so German... (language oriented). This is my point of view.

PD: In 2nd WW my grandfather was fighting in German side (Blaue Division).
[doublepost=1457704333,1457703701][/doublepost]

So you aren't going to buy a Pyra then? Are you walking away because it happens to have some German (not Germanic, they are different) characters on it?

I love Pyra idea and proyect, and I will follow it, but my purchase decision is not yet taken. I will evaluate all aspects.

For me that German-looking German-oriented keyboard (but QWERTY) is worst Pyra aspect, not because I can't live with it (I have lived with Sharp Zaurus with some Japanese characters), but because I think it will hurt sales/community. With a neutral/international keyboard it would attract much more people and would have a bigger community, and I take this point like very important in niche products.

I write a lot of comments in tech blogs in my mother language, and I will comment about Pyra: I will defend it, but I can't defend its keyboard decision/election but only criticize it (I am so right that I can't hide negative points).
[doublepost=1457704678][/doublepost]

Well to be fair I type on 30 year old IBM model M keyboards, so no need to buy a new keyboard... but I'd find the keyboard layout different and interesting, something I could show off to my geek friends with....

Of course this is just speculation just like your claim is.

What a great keyboard. Today most young people has never touch a real good keyboard.

I have lived with my Sharp Zaurus (a Japanese pocket computer with Linux), and it was cool with some Japanese symbols (this product was only oficially launched in Japan). But I think having German characters ßäö...is not so cool Of course this really is just speculation.

 

[FaeMinx]

What a pointless waste of energy.

again and again