And suddenly it works.


Such an overlay might help if one like to change the layout, though I'm not sure if there is enough space between the Keys for readable Letters. From the renders, it looks like the gap would be somewhere between 1 and 2 mm. Also the alternative layout next to the original one might be confusing.

But if the space might big enough, you could make self made overlays not just for custom keyboard layouts but also for specific games. Like the overlays for some home computers/consoles like, Texas Instruments(so things come full circle :) ) 99/4a and Interton vc4000.

So that would add an additional layer of retro-ness :)

For example some HP calculators and pocket computers had that system: the were designed to insert a keyboard overlay. For example original HP 48 serie has that system. One overlay example: http://ep.yimg.com/ay/calculatorsou...rd-overlay-for-hp-48-series-calculators-1.gif
Even there are blank overlays where you can write/print what you want.
In above picture you can see a small protrusion on overlay to fix it to machine case. In Pyra you could place a overlay, but there is no system to grip/fix it to Pyra case.

On other side an overlay in Pyra doesn't solve the worst Pyra problem for me: that problem for me is that a lot of people watching Pyra for 1st time will see a keyboard designed for Germans (with a lot of Germans keys printed on it) and will go away without more consideration.
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Not sure why oskda wants a keyboard that offers less language support (that make up the majority of the community at the time it was created) on the second layer.

As others you didn't understand what I wanted to say.

I don't speak about "less language support" but about more international look; about not looking like a keyboard designed for Germans (or mostly for Germans).

And, yes, we know actual community is mostly from those countries but it seems some of you want it continue mostly only in those countries, instead of getting a lot more international and BIGGER.
 
For example some HP calculators and pocket computers had that system: the were designed to insert a keyboard overlay. For example original HP 48 serie has that system. One overlay example: http://ep.yimg.com/ay/calculatorsou...rd-overlay-for-hp-48-series-calculators-1.gif
Even there are blank overlays where you can write/print what you want.
In above picture you can see a small protrusion on overlay to fix it to machine case. In Pyra you could place a overlay, but there is no system to grip/fix it to Pyra case.

On other side an overlay in Pyra doesn't solve the worst Pyra problem for me: that problem for me is that a lot of people watching Pyra for 1st time will see a keyboard designed for Germans (with a lot of Germans keys printed on it) and will go away without more consideration.
Is that hard for you to accept there are some German characters? May be there is a solution, produce some unprinted keys, I means blank keys, then whoever want it, they could buy it alone.
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Is that hard for you to accept there are some German characters? May be there is a solution, produce some unprinted keys, I means blank keys, then whoever want it, they could buy it alone.
There have too many languages need to support, for example, Japanese, Chinese. Even the international keyboard is not covered everyone's need. So how about leave this to customer, show them the choice of blank keys, print something by themselves.
 
Well you made heavy use of capitalized letters, with is often considered shouting (a high frequency of emphasis appears "loud" easily)

When you write a text (or line/lines) all capitals you are shouting, but when you write only one or some few words in capitalized letters you are remarking those letters, like when you write them in blod charcters. At least I understand in that way (I hate people writing all in capitalized letters). It is simply faster to type a word in capitals than to select it and "blod"-type it.
 
Can't the keyboard discussion die already

... I'm sure the number of dead horse related beatings and records made physically unusable would diminish.

Well some of us have moved on, but there are those that keep on revisiting it....

Oskda: We've been over this. Go read the hundred or so pages of previous discussion....

Now I show my FIRST comment (I wasn't expecting more):

[I was answering to other comment] That is a closed question: they have decided to use a VERY GERMANIC KEYBOARAD, instead of using a more INTERNATIONAl and NEUTRAL keyboard. And I think this can hurt some Pyra sales and market, as some people would see a GERMANIC keyborad for Germans, not something international
.......
This is yet decided and Pyra will have Germanic keyboard.

So I said to other member it was a CLOSED QUESTION, they decided to go with a German-looking keyboard and it is done. In my opinnion it will hurt Pyra sales/community/etc, but it is a yet taken decision.

Is this dead horse thinking? No, I don't think so. Even I think to ignore, to try to forget and move on, is dead brain, but a respectable decision.

I don't know what brain can think I want to resurrect dead horse (keyboard discussion), as in a crystalline way I said in my first message it is closed, decided, over subject.
 
Pure fiction.

I am west European, my mother language uses a lot of letters with diacritic symbols, so I am used for those. Even with this I see a Germanic keyboard in Pyra.

If I, used to letters with diacritic symbols, see a German keyboard, what will see for example the common people of English speaking countries -a market a lot of times bigger than German market-?

Try to sell a German keyboard (but QWERTY instead of QWERTZ) in USA, UK, Australia, etc, etc... you can type English in that keyboard (and it is QWERTY so you don't need to change/learn nothing) but you will sell near zero.

Of course, this is "fiction": no one, even crazy, would try to sell such a keyboard in those places.

Now move on: most Pyra users will be German/French... and we must be happy with this smaller community... and move on.

I end this here. I have expressed my opinion (German-looking keyboard => less sales, less community), although a lot of people didn't understand what I was saying. Of course others have other opinion: some, like you, think a German-looking keyboard is no problem at all... and I disagree.
 
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Try to sell a German (but QWERTY instead of QWERTZ) in USA, UK, Australia, etc, etc... you can type English in that keyboard (and it is QWERTY so you don't need to change/learn nothing) but you will sell near zero.
Well to be fair I type on 30 year old IBM model M keyboards, so no need to buy a new keyboard... but I'd find the keyboard layout different and interesting, something I could show off to my geek friends with....

Of course this is just speculation just like your claim is.
 
Even with this I see a Germanic keyboard.
So you aren't going to buy a Pyra then? Are you walking away because it happens to have some German (not Germanic, they are different) characters on it?
 
As long the german charakters are only on second layer (via FN) it should be ok for most peaple..
Whe arent the bad germans anymore since long long time, the generation where lots works for the nazis, they all dye in this and the next decade due too to much age..
Im a German from the 80tes, im even ditnt go too the military..

Also Umlauts are quit popular in Metall, like in "Motörhead" par exemple..
 
I, for one, am completely satisfied with what I have learned a couple of pages ago, vis à vis the possibility of making custom keymats. It seems clear to me that, even if no alternative/blank keymat run should ever be made by ED or anyone else, people who really want it will be able to make their own keymats to their heart's content.

I thought I could nip this discussion in the bud, by asking about this, I really did.

I accept that people have very different and very strong opinions on this issue and won't budge on it.
But I really believed that the perspective of making (or getting someone else to make) a custom keymat (and maybe even other custom parts) would be enough to calm the minds of anyone still unhappy with the final decision on the matter. This is, or rather will be, a supremely moddable device! Add to that the large and very widely and diversely technically skilled community that's already in place and I have no doubt that we will see all sorts of hacks, tricks and inventive ways to mod and customise the Pyra in ways I can't even imagine right now.

Why, then, would people still complain and argue about a single default part, which they can fully expect to be able to replace with something more to their liking? Probably only a few months after the first large batch has been delivered. So I thought.

I was naive.

To those with an axe to grind, the joy is in the grinding.

Grind on you crazy diamonds...
 
As long the german charakters are only on second layer (via FN) it should be ok for most peaple..
Whe arent the bad germans anymore since long long time, the generation where lots works for the nazis, they all dye in this and the next decade due too to much age..
Im a German from the 80tes, im even ditnt go too the military..

Also Umlauts are quit popular in Metall, like in "Motörhead" par exemple..

My friend, this is not against Germans. We love German products, "made in Germany" is highly valuable, and I like Germans, but most people don't want a German (although QWERTY) keyboard; and a lot of people will see a German keyboard when looking at Pyra, no a neutral or international keyboard. We know we can compose other western languages (typing 4 keys :O instead of only 2 like in German characters), and we can redefine keyboard, but common people will see a German keyboard and will take away.

When you look at that keyboard, those German characters glow http://pandoralive.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/renderkeyboard.jpeg
and common people will see that German keyboard. It is so German... (language oriented). This is my point of view.

PD: In 2nd WW my grandfather was fighting in German side (Blaue Division).
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So you aren't going to buy a Pyra then? Are you walking away because it happens to have some German (not Germanic, they are different) characters on it?

I love Pyra idea and proyect, and I will follow it, but my purchase decision is not yet taken. I will evaluate all aspects.

For me that German-looking German-oriented keyboard (but QWERTY) is worst Pyra aspect, not because I can't live with it (I have lived with Sharp Zaurus with some Japanese characters), but because I think it will hurt sales/community. With a neutral/international keyboard it would attract much more people and would have a bigger community, and I take this point like very important in niche products.

I write a lot of comments in tech blogs in my mother language, and I will comment about Pyra: I will defend it, but I can't defend its keyboard decision/election but only criticize it (I am so right that I can't hide negative points).
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Well to be fair I type on 30 year old IBM model M keyboards, so no need to buy a new keyboard... but I'd find the keyboard layout different and interesting, something I could show off to my geek friends with....

Of course this is just speculation just like your claim is.

What a great keyboard. Today most young people has never touch a real good keyboard.

I have lived with my Sharp Zaurus (a Japanese pocket computer with Linux), and it was cool with some Japanese symbols (this product was only oficially launched in Japan). But I think having German characters ßäö...is not so cool :D Of course this really is just speculation.
 
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This re-iterating on the keyboard layout is both pointless and off-topic.

Take it to general discussion, please. Thank you.
 
For me that German-looking German-oriented keyboard (but QWERTY) is worst Pyra aspect, not because I can't live with it (I have lived with Sharp Zaurus with some Japanese characters), but because I think it will hurt sales/community.
No I can think of a dozen things about the Pyra that would steer people away before a few extra characters on the keyboard.
 
But I think having German characters ßéè...is not so cool :D Of course this really is just speculation.

Dude... have you ever heard of "Metal Dots" (although wikipedia calls them Metal umlaut)? I can't see how the most "metal" letters in the alphabet are not cool enough to appear on the keyboard! ;)
 
As others you didn't understand what I wanted to say.
I understand perfectly what you are saying. You don't understand that ED gets what he wants since he paid to develop the thing, and without him we would not be having this conversation. Also, Germans are a big part of the community, and rather than use a German keyboard we have an English one with some extra stuff to make things easier for a couple of the languages used by a majority of the existing community.

German characters printed on the keymat will not scare away as many people as you think. One thing the GPD Win has taught me is that most people don't really pay attention to the keyboard (sometimes including those creating such devices). They briefly look at it and are content that it has one that resembles what they are familiar with (or they think it is stupid to have keyboard nowadays, and consider it a baby's toy). Those "scary" characters are there to help some users, so if you want them gone you are asking to reduce language support that was intentionally included. Either way, it won't change, regardless of how many times you post the same thing over and over again. It isn't the best way, but it is what we will get. Perhaps you can donate the funds required to create a run of US international inspired keymats and that can be offered alongside the standard one to alleviate your concerns. Otherwise I don't see much that you can do, or that we can do to help you.

Also Umlauts are quit popular in Metall, like in "Motörhead" par exemple..
Some of your comments are so awesome. Even some of my non-metal non-German music does stuff like this (although some are inspired by German music and aesthetics, but most just seem to do it because it is "cool"). Edit: a could of the band's I was thinking of are on the Wikipedia page LoopStar linked...I didn't know Lady Gaga was doing it too, not that I am surprised by that.
 
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Oskda: We've been over this. Go read the hundred or so pages of previous discussion, we don't need to repeat it here. Everything you've said just now has been discussed over multiple times. If, after reading all that you still feel you have something new to contribute, be my guest.

I went looking for the keyboard threads to provide him links for further reading and - I can't find them. Clearly I am search impaired.

You made that FunKey key-function-mapping program, right? Could you provide him a link to that?
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When you look at that keyboard, those German characters glow http://pandoralive.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/renderkeyboard.jpeg
and common people will see that German keyboard. It is so German... (language oriented). This is my point of view.
What a great keyboard. Today most young people has never touch a real good keyboard.

But I think having German characters ßéè...is not so cool :D Of course this really is just speculation.

You think people are going to be so ethnocentric that they will be unwilling to buy an English as a primary language device made in Germany that happens to have French and German characters on a Fn layer of the keyboard to make it so that the people who design, build and sell the thing can use their native language more easily?

I notice you're not saying anything about the French provisions, but seem to feel that people will -fear- the German letters on the Fn layer?

There was a -lot- of discussions about whether or not to include native language support for Spanish as well. There were even several keyboard designs that included the full set dead key diacritics and Ñ/ñ labeled. However, by the time a keyboard gets to that level of international functionality, it also becomes very dense in it's labels - necessitating 4 per key on many keys. There was a fair amount of fear that the aesthetic would be off-putting and the labels, particularly for dead keys not used in English, would be confusing.

I wish I could find my, "Something Completely Different - Keyboard Ideas" thread. I had many of these examples that you would look to for illustrations of what was considered and then decided against.

We really did consider every single point you're trying to make. We really did debate, rethink, debate and make compromises to come up with the best possible solution that appealed to the largest portion of this device's audience.

As for this becoming an "OMG Another Keyboard Tread!" If one of the mods wants to strip the whole set of keyboard related postings out of this news item and move them to /Pyra/General, that would be fine.

As to not being able to find the old keyboard threads to point Oskda to - something funky is going on with the board's search functions. Tell it to search for "keyboard" by "Grench" and it pulls the most recent 3 months or so AND stuff from 2008 when we were considering the Pandora's keyboard, but none of the epic discussions we had for the Pyra. Maybe it didn't index properly in migration?
 
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