And suddenly it works.

[Caine]

This re-iterating on the keyboard layout is both pointless and off-topic.

Take it to general discussion, please. Thank you.

 

[TrashyMG]

For me that German-looking German-oriented keyboard (but QWERTY) is worst Pyra aspect, not because I can't live with it (I have lived with Sharp Zaurus with some Japanese characters), but because I think it will hurt sales/community.

No I can think of a dozen things about the Pyra that would steer people away before a few extra characters on the keyboard.

 

[LoopStar]

But I think having German characters ßéè...is not so cool Of course this really is just speculation.

Dude... have you ever heard of "Metal Dots" (although wikipedia calls them Metal umlaut)? I can't see how the most "metal" letters in the alphabet are not cool enough to appear on the keyboard!

 

[rygD]

As others you didn't understand what I wanted to say.

I understand perfectly what you are saying. You don't understand that ED gets what he wants since he paid to develop the thing, and without him we would not be having this conversation. Also, Germans are a big part of the community, and rather than use a German keyboard we have an English one with some extra stuff to make things easier for a couple of the languages used by a majority of the existing community.

German characters printed on the keymat will not scare away as many people as you think. One thing the GPD Win has taught me is that most people don't really pay attention to the keyboard (sometimes including those creating such devices). They briefly look at it and are content that it has one that resembles what they are familiar with (or they think it is stupid to have keyboard nowadays, and consider it a baby's toy). Those "scary" characters are there to help some users, so if you want them gone you are asking to reduce language support that was intentionally included. Either way, it won't change, regardless of how many times you post the same thing over and over again. It isn't the best way, but it is what we will get. Perhaps you can donate the funds required to create a run of US international inspired keymats and that can be offered alongside the standard one to alleviate your concerns. Otherwise I don't see much that you can do, or that we can do to help you.

Also Umlauts are quit popular in Metall, like in "Motörhead" par exemple..

Some of your comments are so awesome. Even some of my non-metal non-German music does stuff like this (although some are inspired by German music and aesthetics, but most just seem to do it because it is "cool"). Edit: a could of the band's I was thinking of are on the Wikipedia page LoopStar linked...I didn't know Lady Gaga was doing it too, not that I am surprised by that.

 

[Grench]

Oskda: We've been over this. Go read the hundred or so pages of previous discussion, we don't need to repeat it here. Everything you've said just now has been discussed over multiple times. If, after reading all that you still feel you have something new to contribute, be my guest.

I went looking for the keyboard threads to provide him links for further reading and - I can't find them. Clearly I am search impaired.

You made that FunKey key-function-mapping program, right? Could you provide him a link to that?
[doublepost=1457710397,1457709453][/doublepost]

When you look at that keyboard, those German characters glow http://pandoralive.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/renderkeyboard.jpeg
and common people will see that German keyboard. It is so German... (language oriented). This is my point of view.
What a great keyboard. Today most young people has never touch a real good keyboard.

But I think having German characters ßéè...is not so cool Of course this really is just speculation.

You think people are going to be so ethnocentric that they will be unwilling to buy an English as a primary language device made in Germany that happens to have French and German characters on a Fn layer of the keyboard to make it so that the people who design, build and sell the thing can use their native language more easily?

I notice you're not saying anything about the French provisions, but seem to feel that people will -fear- the German letters on the Fn layer?

There was a -lot- of discussions about whether or not to include native language support for Spanish as well. There were even several keyboard designs that included the full set dead key diacritics and Ñ/ñ labeled. However, by the time a keyboard gets to that level of international functionality, it also becomes very dense in it's labels - necessitating 4 per key on many keys. There was a fair amount of fear that the aesthetic would be off-putting and the labels, particularly for dead keys not used in English, would be confusing.

I wish I could find my, "Something Completely Different - Keyboard Ideas" thread. I had many of these examples that you would look to for illustrations of what was considered and then decided against.

We really did consider every single point you're trying to make. We really did debate, rethink, debate and make compromises to come up with the best possible solution that appealed to the largest portion of this device's audience.

As for this becoming an "OMG Another Keyboard Tread!" If one of the mods wants to strip the whole set of keyboard related postings out of this news item and move them to /Pyra/General, that would be fine.

As to not being able to find the old keyboard threads to point Oskda to - something funky is going on with the board's search functions. Tell it to search for "keyboard" by "Grench" and it pulls the most recent 3 months or so AND stuff from 2008 when we were considering the Pandora's keyboard, but none of the epic discussions we had for the Pyra. Maybe it didn't index properly in migration?

 

[bzar]

I went looking for the keyboard threads to provide him links for further reading and - I can't find them. Clearly I am search impaired.

You made that FunKey key-function-mapping program, right? Could you provide him a link to that?

Seriously? If you really want I can search them for you. Not that I'd want to delve into that particular part of the forums again. I specifically mean the talk about US keyboards being "standard", its effect on sales because "scary weird foreign symbols" and all that jazz. Search "foreign" on the relevant threads and you should find enough.

FunKeyMonkey won't erase the "german" stuff (half of it is fine for Finnish as well, hence the quotes) from the keyboards, so it won't soothe the hypothetical group of people intimidated into passing a purchase by them.

If we really wanted an "international" keyboard it should have support for quite a few more languages than Pyra's

 

[Plume]

But I think having German characters ßéè...is not so cool

é and è. German characters ... You ...

 

[oskda]

There was a -lot- of discussions about whether or not to include native language support for Spanish as well. There were even several keyboard designs that included the full set dead key diacritics and Ñ/ñ labeled. However, by the time a keyboard gets to that level of international functionality, it also becomes very dense in it's labels - necessitating 4 per key on many keys. There was a fair amount of fear that the aesthetic would be off-putting and the labels, particularly for dead keys not used in English, would be confusing.

1st/ You are totally wrong. If yo use a letter for ä, other for ë, other for ï, other for ö, other for ü, etc, etc obviously you need a lot of keys, but if you use blind keys you need very very few: you introduce dead key ¨ and then letter. In my US-International keyboard (is a normal US keyboard with US-International layout in soft) I can type near all west European languages. I don't know why Germans can't use dead keys, as it is much more general (you use less spaces and you can introduce more combinations) and used on other language keyboards.

2nd/ I don't know why you are lost saying I want to change keymat, open debate, etc: my original message simply said to other used that it was decided Pyra would have that German-oriented keyboard (but QWERTY); it is a closed question. But you continue on and on and on saying I open a debate/etc on keyboard.

 

[Grench]

Seriously? If you really want I can search them for you. Not that I'd want to delve into that particular part of the forums again. I specifically mean the talk about US keyboards being "standard", its effect on sales because "scary weird foreign symbols" and all that jazz. Search "foreign" on the relevant threads and you should find enough.

FunKeyMonkey won't erase the "german" stuff (half of it is fine for Finnish as well, hence the quotes) from the keyboards, so it won't soothe the hypothetical group of people intimidated into passing a purchase by them.

If we really wanted an "international" keyboard it should have support for quite a few more languages than Pyra's

Freeking weird. I just did the exact same search again and now the keyboard threads are showing up in it. I suppose I should put it to use now that it is 'found'.

For Oskda's reading pleasure:
https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/th...g-completely-different-keyboard-option.74833/
Note: That one is my personal thread which is one of dozens of far more contentious threads.

If you haven't had enough at that point, I suggest reading:
https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/comparison-matrix-for-keyboard-layout-proposals.75859/

All of that (and much much more) culminated in this:
https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/keymat-layout-the-final-poll.76143/#post-1347936

My favorite, and possibly the most flexible, international layout:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/b76ffdc065642c07243bad385b4a06a8
It is an unapologetic international layout built for servicing MANY languages without negative impact to English use.
Yes, the numbers and the F1-F12 keys are on the Fn layer.
Those orange circles on the lower-right keys are indicators that Fn+key and Fn+shift+key are dead key diacritics on those.
It scared the ____ out of people.

So - yes, everything that Oskda considers to be a novel point of criticism has already been discussed, hashed out and worked through in many directions to many extremes.

It's done.
[doublepost=1457714409,1457714235][/doublepost]

1st/ You are totally wrong. If yo use a letter for ä, other for ë, other for ï, other for ö, other for ü, etc, etc obviously you need a lot of keys, but if you use blind keys you need very very few: you introduce dead key ¨ and then letter. In my US-International keyboard (is a normal US keyboard with US-International layout in soft) I can type near all west European languages. I don't know why Germans can't use dead keys, as it is much more general (you use less spaces and you can introduce more combinations) and used on other language keyboards.

2nd/ I don't know why you are lost saying I want to change keymat, open debate, etc: my original message simply said to other used that it was decided Pyra would have that German-oriented keyboard (but QWERTY); it is a closed question. But you continue on and on and on saying I open a debate/etc on keyboard.

You replied inside of the time it took me to throw that together. Please see the above references and feel welcome to read until you become violent with the need to create your own layouts, threads and polls. Enjoy!

 

[oskda]

For Oskda's reading pleasure:....... Enjoy!

Oh my Good: my 1st message was only a note for other user: I said him keyboard question was decided, over, finished: they decided to do a German-look-oriented keyboard. POINT.

So I don't look for debate: the selected German-look keyboard. And I think it will hurt (community will continue mostly enclosed in only this countries), but it is done.

 

[PokeParadox]

Blah all this keyboard talk is drowning out the awesome:

 

[Grench]

THAT IS AWESOME!!! And it makes me want a clear &/or mixed&matched prototype.

 

[Caine]

It's alive!

Congrats to Michael and team on this major milestone.

 

[directive0]

Congrats on the first plugs out look at the Pyra!!

Not that anyone cares, but man it is so freaking sexy in translucent. ED when you get a chance I'd love to see what keyboard backlighting looks like!

SO STOKED!

 

[levi]

Blah all this keyboard talk is drowning out the awesome:

For those of us using browsers that don't render this board's tweets properly:

Something to tease you guys... no strings attached, running off battery.

Source

This video is going to be freaking awesome!

 

[iprice]

So how does it all feel now that it's together? How's the hinge and the keys in the case? etc. etc.

 

[Blue Shadow]

Oh my Good: my 1st message was only a note for other user: I said him keyboard question was decided, over, finished: they

Well personally, it puzzled me that you insisted it the keyboard would look escpecially german, although being qwerty,although there are as much french charackters as german ones. So I didn't get it why you did not say "german/french" or better "qwerty with some foreign characters(as there are overlaps with other languages)".

Then I read this:

But I think having German characters ßéè...

And it explained so much! So you just thought é and è are german characters too.

Riddle solved, we can move on.

Something to tease you guys... no strings attached, running off battery.

YAY! Great videos ahead!
Already looks nice at the photo.

 

[fusion_power]

German characters printed on the keymat will not scare away as many people as you think.

True. With german letters/umlauts, foreign useres could finaly write "MOTÖRHEAD" correctly without trouble! if this is not worth it, what else?

 

[Not_a_Nick]

I must admit it looks even better than i expected fully assembled now. Damn that's a sexy handheld.

 

[Faust]

You haven't cath what I am meaning.

I know we can compose a lot of symbols, more than composed letter we see PRINTED ON that keyboard, but the PROBLEM IS that a lot of people will see a keyboard for GERMANS, for GERMAN language (even although it isn't QWERTZ but QWERTY) and they will go away.

Do you unerstand me? I know we can compose, even redefine all keyboard (although then we loose printed symbols usability), but normal people watching Pyra for 1st time will see a product localized for German language, a roduct for Germans, and they will move on without givin Pyra a chance. They will lost Pyra posibilities and Pyra would lost a bigger comunity/market/visibility/etc.

«I wasn't even able to find a layout editor or solid picture that represented the final keyboard layout»: is it this? http://pandoralive.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/renderkeyboard.jpeg

No, AltGr, which is really just, RightAlt, is not labeled as such and will be turned off by default. It can be activated, but you probably won't want or need to. Frankly, Compose works better than AltGr. Yes, dead key diacritics were given consideration.

«German and French were made easier by housing commonly needed characters on a section of the Fn layer. Those facts do not interfere with English use OR with international use»: we know it, but a lot of people will see a German keyboard, and will go away without more investigation.

«Compose is still present. It is at Fn+space»: I know it; (look at the above picture). In German you can type German composed letters diectly (type Fn and key with that special symbol on orange), TWO KEYS; on other languages you have to type Fn key, then "Compose" (space key), then two more keys to compose: FOUR KEYS, while in a US international layout we only press 2 keys for most composed letter in near all western languages (with Latin base). Sorry but you are exactly SHOWING US this is a keyboard for GERMANS.

I write a lot of in tech blogs in my mother language, and I will speak about Pyra, but really I can't defend its keyboard (printed) layout.

«In fact, nearly every key has up to 16 distinct functional capabilities using normal, shift, Fn, Alt & Ctrl modifiers that can be set to a specific outcome»: we know, but most "normal" people will see a German keyboard for Germans (with "normal" I mean people not knowing what we know).

«What is your primary language? Maybe we can help you understand how the keyboard can work for you?»: You didn't understand me: I HAVE NO PROBLEM [1] the PROBLEM is for Pyra because "normal" people will see a German keyboard for Germans.

[1]: My mother language is Spanish (and here a normal keyboard use dead keys, except for ñ, we compose á é í ó etc with dead key). But if I buy a computer with Spanish keyboard I change it for US keyboard because it is more ergonomic, has symbols in better place for programming and tech, is the standard in retro computing I love, and I can type in any western language with easy: this layout (US International) is made for that: INTERNATIONAL (obviously with QWERTY base as it is the most used base), no "better" for xxx language and worse for others.

I must insist: I have no problem: in my normal live I use a US keyboard (with international layout in soft) to type in my other languages. I know in Pyra we can compose, redefine, etc, etc, but that is not the problem I am speaking of: the problem is that to most people it won't look an INTERNATIONAL and "neutral" keyboard but a keyboard for Germans, and a lot of people then won't consider Pyra, they will go away: that is the problem.

[/QUOTE]
Honestly you are thinking too much, before knowing anything about the Pyra, I really thought that was an English keyboard.

Now that I know a bit more, I definitely think it's an international keyboard, and I never thought it was a German keyboard, definitely not. Someone really interested in the Pyra will looks for more informations about it.

Edit: Awesome guys, the thing is alive!