And suddenly it works.

[Plume]

One shouldn't look at his keyboard anyway while typing anyway.

 

[oskda]

@oskda well time travel aside, the best solution is just to live with the current solution, most of us here are sick of the Keyboard layout arguments in the past. The current layout was selected by this community.

I don't think it was selected by "this community" but more by some with German/French language but it can be I am wrong (or it may be most community is German/French speaking).

On other side you are wrong with "the best just to life with the current...": for some the solution would be to live with other solutions... no using/selecting a Pyra because its keyboard frighten them for those German language symbols.

I am afraid that those selection subtract USERS and COMMUNITY (both are very important in such a niche product), but, if we select Pyra, we have just to live with that. I assume it, as I know the keyboard decision is closed time ago.

 

[Blue Shadow]

@oskda: not sure why you are shouting so much: you are also mixing up germanic and german as it seems (btw english is also a germanic language) and missing out that there are also french letters on the keyboard.

A sticky fn key is not so much different to a dead key. And both are additional keypresses compared to a german qwertz(btw, pyra will have qwerty) keyboard.

Not sure why anyone should be frightened because of symbols they don't using. I very rarely use the µ,§,²,³ symbols on my keyboard, but the never bothered me, and for sure they never frightened me - why should they? And i guess the french symbols also won't frighten most germans and vice versa.

So I'm not sure what exactly is your complaint about. Is it that those letters are printed on the keys?
Well, I think many users (including) would be finde whitout the printed letters as long they can produce them.

I can imagine that those letters might sligthly irritate someone who looks at the keyboard the first time (but frigthened?)

But the keyboard layout is now final, maybe there might be customized (3rd party?) keymats in the future, but that's probably tied to how sucessful the Pyra will be.

 

[oskda]

One shouldn't look at his keyboard anyway while typing anyway.

1st/ Even in a normal PC (big) keyboard, sometimes you have to look (even if you know how to blind type) because you don't have hands in home row (you are doing other things or you change from mouse/gamestick/etc to type only one or a few letters).

2st/ What we do in a normal keyboard is near impossible in a so much small keyboard like Pyra. We can type fast with very small keyboards with practice, but you can't blind type in those keyboards as you can't use 10 fingers; most time you can use only 2 of them.

PD: I don't want to talk more about keyboard question and debate I was only replying a message about keyboard decision, saying it is a "closed" decision (and a wrong in my opinion, but, more important: closed, decided).

 

[FaeMinx]

It is pointless arguing about it now.

It is what it is.
You can choose to adapt, or expend your own energy creating an alternative you personally are 100% happy with.
You can even try to gather support for your idea... maybe some will help you out.

You may find that your perceptions of the current layout are what are holding you back from fully appreciating it.
And we all know how relative perceptions are.

How YOU choose to make use of what is provided is up to you.
But there has to be a meeting point somewhere.
This is where we are.
Accept it.
... if you wish to be happy...

or don't accept it,
... and you won't.

Simple.

 

[TrashyMG]

I don't think it was selected by "this community" but more by some with German/French language but it can be I am wrong (or it may be most community is German/French speaking).

It was literally voted on by this community and yes, there is quiet the French and German population here in this community.

 

[oskda]

Not sure why anyone should be frightened because of symbols they don't using

Think about for example about US market (a market much bigger than German market): try to sell in that country a German keyboard or a computer with a German keyboard. Oh, my good, you can type English with that German keyboard but NO ONE would buy it, NO ONE want it... although they can type in English "too" with it.

The symbols °!@#^&[]~/?x©.... doesn't frighten people today (nor superindex ²,³...): they are seen like SYMBOLS you can use sometime (even in the future), and necessary symbos for science/tech/texts..., they are UNIVERSAL today and normal for people in modern times, but a keyboard with ßéèü is seen like something for a specific language, for a specific country, only for people with that language/country. Do you understand the difference?

In this way you are loosing a lot of possible market, as a lot of people will see a product for Germans, for German people (not a product from German but a "germanic" product for Germans and other people speaking German like primary language).

Is it that those letters are printed on the keys?

A lot of people would see a German keyboard (or some a mixed German/French, although considering French uses AZERTY keyboard I don't think too much will see a French keyboard).

If you use dead keys or compese with "SYMBOLS" you see "SYMBOLS" and international capabilities, no a local product only for a language or a country (or a little more than a country, but no too much).

But the keyboard layout is now final

We know it, but for me the decision was (and it is) an error. I think that at least 2 keymats would be done, actual (localized mostly for German and some, only some, for French as it isn't AZERTY), and other international wich would be seen like natural for English spoken people (this market is so big, times and times bigger than a German market) and also it would be like international for the other people

If sometime EvilDragon wants to do a sucesful crowdfunding campaign, I think that an international keyboard (US English base, with int capabilities like "US International layout") would be a must.

germanic and german as it seems (btw english is also a germanic language) and missing out that there are also french letters on the keyboard.

I think you haven't catch up the meaning I wanted to indicate. I hope you can understand better the senese I was pursueing with examples: NO ONE (or near no one) decide they don't want a GERMAN product because it is German, but most people in world don't want a product "made for German language". For example most people on world can desire a German car (Mercedes, BMW...) or a German Bosch tool, but most people don't want a GERMAN keyboard, because that keyboard is only for GERMANS, although you can type with it in English (or even in other languages with less or more effort).

About language: sorry, but we type letters (and other symbols) and those letters (basically LATIN ALPHABET) came from ancient Romans and its language and its LATIN language, no from German runes In any case I am not here for language/alphabet origins discussions so I won't talk more about this (for me it is undeniable that Greek and Latin classical world is the cradle of western civilization; our alphabet, philosophy, most of Western languages, science, etc, is originated there, no from old Germans nor runes).

A sticky fn key is not so much different to a dead key. ...(btw, pyra will have qwerty) keyboard.

With US international layout you can use dead keys (for example you type '+a to get á, or use dead key ' and then "a" to get á, á or you can press AltGR+a to get the same á ). You have those combinations for most used symbols (from an international perspective, no from a German perspective).

«btw, pyra will have qwerty»: if it would have AZERTY or QWERTZ keyboard, obviously it wouldn't be a "reduced" market decision, but a suicidal decision.

Not sure why anyone should be frightened because of symbols they don't using

Think about for example about US market: try to sell in that country a German keyboard or a computer with a German keyboard. Oh, my good, you can type English with that German keyboard but no one would buy it, although they can type in English too with it.

The symbols °!@#^&[]~/?x©.... doesn't frighten people today (nor superindex ²,³...): they are seen like SYMBOLS you can use sometime (even in the future), and necessary symbos for science/tech/texts..., they are universal today and normal for people in modern times, but a keyboard with ßéèü is seen like something for a specific language, only for people with that language/country. Do you understand the difference?

In this way you are loosing a lot of possible market, as a lot of people will see a product for Germans, for German people (not a product from German but a "germanic" product for Germans and other people speaking German like primary language).

Is it that those letters are printed on the keys?

A lot of people would see a German keyboard (or some a mixed German/French, although considering French uses AZERTY keyboard I don't think someone will see a French keyboard).

If you use dead keys you see "SYMBOLS" and international capabilities, no a local product only for a language or a country (or a little more than a country, but no too much).

But the keyboard layout is now final

We know it, but for me the decision was (and it is) an error. I think that at least 2 keymats would be done, actual (localized mostly for German and some, only some, for French as it isn't AZERTY), and other international which would be seen like natural for English spoken people (this market is so big, times and times bigger than a German market) and also it would be like international for the other people

If sometime EvilDragon wants to do a sucesful crowdfunding campaign, I think that an international keyboard (US English base, with int capabilities like "US Internatinal layout") would be a must.

germanic and german as it seems (btw english is also a germanic language) and missing out that there are also french letters on the keyboard.

I think you haven't catch up the meaning I wanted to express. I hope you can understand better the sense I was pursuing with examples: no one (or near no one) decide they don't want a GERMAN product because it is German, but most people in world don't want a product made for German language. Most people on world can desire a German car (Mercedes, BMW...) or a German Bosch tool, or a lot of items from German, but most people don't want a GERMAN keyboard, because that keyboard is only for GERMANS, although you can type with it in English too (or even in other languages with less or more effort).

About language: sorry, but we type letters (and other symbols) and those letters (basically LATIN ALPHABET) came from ancient Romans and its language and its LATIN language, no from German runes In any case I am not here for language/alphabet origins discussions so I won't talk more about this (for me it is undeniable that Greek and Latin classical world is the cradle of western civilization; our alphabet, philosophy, most of Western languages, science, etc, is originated there, no from old Germans nor runes).

A sticky fn key is not so much different to a dead key. ...(btw, pyra will have qwerty) keyboard.

With US international layout you can use dead keys (for example you type '+a to get á, or use dead key ' and then "a" to get á, á or you can press AltGR+a to get the same á ). You have those combinations for most used symbols (from an international perspective, no from a German perspective).

not sure why you are shouting so much

¿"Shouting"? I am not shouting; I haven't shoot at all, nor I need to do so; and I don't know why you think that. I am relaxed and totally serene.

 

[FBnil]

... I think I need to stop drinking.... I see double...

 

[TrashyMG]

@oskda , the US market for the Pandora was fairly small, Europe was the largest customer base. It's not always about the US market and I live in the US. The Pyra isn't an impulse buy item, I don't think some extra characters on a keyboard would scare off interested parties in the device.

 

[lukey]

Oh no the Pyra has more Letters than an Standart US Layout. The Pyra Layout is optimized to fit most peoples use-case not to look good. (Well with KB Backlight it looks awesome https://www.pyra-handheld.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fileyra_KB_light.jpeg )

With US international layout you can use dead keys (for example you type '+a to get á, or use dead key ' and then "a" to get á, á or you can press AltGR+a to get the same á ). You have those combinations for most used symbols (from an international perspective, no from a German perspective).

Thats what the Compose key is for. The dedicated German and French Keys are only there because they are used more often.

Also don't forget, that Pyras biggest advantage is, that it actually has an Keyboard. It's the most Powerful and smallest Device with an full Keyboard.

 

[oskda]

@oskda , the US market for the Pandora was fairly small, Europe was the largest customer base. It's not always about the US market and I live in the US. The Pyra isn't an impulse buy item, I don't think some extra characters on a keyboard would scare off interested parties in the device.

Pandora was sold and marketed like a home-mad item (with enormous problems we know in Pandora start-up).

Now think about Pyra and crowdfunding in a place like Kickstarter (or other of similar relevance): it would be known by much more people on world, and, as EvilDragon can show real Pyra machine soon it is something real (no a drawing like other project. It could be much much bigger than Pyra, and much much international -even it need to be international to be so big as it is a niche product-.

Of course, you can sell and market Pyra like Pandora, and it would be little known => few sales, few users, little community.

I know Pyra is a niche product, but inside that niche size you can restrict even more or be even bigger in it.

PD: I think GDP is an inferior product in more aspects, but I will look how well it sells in advance (even counting they don't have a real product yet to show, while ED soon can show real product).

 

[Grench]

Pandora was .... Keyboard... German... Compose...

Calm down. The keyboard, believe it or not IS international and does work beyond English, German and French.

The search function on these new boards and me don't get along very well. I wasn't even able to find a layout editor or solid picture that represented the final keyboard layout. If someone has that handy, it would be a helpful illustration.

No, AltGr, which is really just, RightAlt, is not labeled as such and will be turned off by default. It can be activated, but you probably won't want or need to. Frankly, Compose works better than AltGr. Yes, dead key diacritics were given consideration.

English was given priority. German and French were made easier by housing commonly needed characters on a section of the Fn layer. Those facts do not interfere with English use OR with international use.

Compose is still present. It is at Fn+space. You can see the little orange "Comp" on the space bar right next to the Fn key, which should work for a roll-on chord. I.e. roll your thumb onto the Fn key and into the space bar - so it should be able to be activated with a single thumb-action. Alternatively, Fn, Shift, Ctrl and Alt are also available from the shoulder buttons.

If you have characters for your language that you need on the keyboard and don't want to use the German or French characters 'as is', those keys could be re-mapped in software, by you, on your own unit, to be anything that you can get a Unicode address for. Yes, the label inside the gel cap on the keymat will still be the German character, but the actual result can be anything your heart desires. It can even be used to launch programs.

In fact, nearly every key has up to 16 distinct functional capabilities using normal, shift, Fn, Alt & Ctrl modifiers that can be set to a specific outcome.

Unmodified keypress
shift+keypress
Fn+keypress
Fn+Shift+keypress
...
Fn+Shift+Alt+Ctrl+keypress

So 4 *2 for Alt *2 for Ctrl = 16

So - yes your needs were included. No, Asian languages were not given high priority. Yes, the majority of the people on these forums speak English and/or German and/or French. So - English was used as a base and German and French languages were given short-cuts.

The desire to be able to re-map any key to any action even resulted in a forum member creating a key-action mapping program. I think it was Bazar? Someone help me on this?

What is your primary language? Maybe we can help you understand how the keyboard can work for you?

 

[Not_a_Nick]

Should be, could be, isn't. Move on.

 

[WizardStan]

We've got a contender

 

[ZXDunny]

Yeah, but it seems the vocal active people here don't seem too interested in it. I assumed that meant all the keyboard threads were worth it.

They kept a large number of people with a certain... mindset... occupied for months. I'd say the threads were worth it for that alone - all of them in one easily ignored place.

It was literally voted on by this community and yes, there is quiet the French and German population here in this community.

They were anything but quiet. If there's one thing everyone by now knows about designing a community-focused handheld, it's DON'T PUT A DAMNED KEYBOARD ON IT. Those things attract muppets like flies.

D.

 

[Blue Shadow]

Grench already pointed the most things out, so just a few words,

Think about for example about US market (a market much bigger
A lot of people would see a German keyboard (or some a mixed German/French, although considering French uses AZERTY keyboard I don't think too much will see a French keyboard).

And as I said, german keyboards are using QWERTZ, so also no QWERTY. So I really don't understand why you insist it would mainly be a german keyboard, but not at least as much french. Why it actually is much more a universal keyboard with many influences of other layout, see grench's post.

About language: sorry, but we type letters (and other symbols) and those letters (basically LATIN ALPHABET) came from ancient Romans and its language and its LATIN language, no from German runes

You were using the word "germanic", I just wanted to point out that this term is misleading. As you could'nt mean the letters here (they are of course latin), I thought you might mean the speach family.

¿"Shouting"? I am not shouting; I haven't shoot at all, nor I need to do so; and I don't know why you think that. I am relaxed and totally serene.

Well you made heavy use of capitalized letters, with is often considered shouting (a high frequency of emphasis appears "loud" easily).

But serene is good

 

[Drake51]

I believe the keymat material is also conductive - I'm not sure whether the above mentioned 3d printable flexible compound is or not.

Everyone thinks they can do a 'better design'. That is a major reason why the keyboard threads were so lengthy. What we have, though, is VERY good. You/someone may or may not agree with that statement. However, everything on it - and where it is on it - was thought out and fought out in excruciating detail. What you/someone might see as a flaw will most likely have a very direct and intended use/effect/capability. It is also a balance between function, aesthetics, multilingual capabilities, gaming and office-type uses.

If you want to gripe about it, open up a thread specifically to, "Keyboard Gripes and Explanations" in /General and we can all go through it again. Just keep in mind that at this point the only way there could/would be any changes to the production keymat is if someone can find a catastrophic flaw in the current one - which has been thoroughly vetted already in the prior process.

There are/were reasons for everything on the current layout. The end result is from a long and boisterous collaboration and debate. In the end it is much better for more people than any of us came up with independently.
[doublepost=1457626519,1457626369][/doublepost]

IMHO, all of the keys are labeled very well EXCEPT right/left click mouse which uses the nub-presses reversed left/right to normal mouse buttons. Sounds confusing, but it makes perfect sense if you give it proper thought.

What did you have in mind that would/should be printed on this key plate?

My thought was a blank one that could be written on/printed out, like on label stickers for people to do if they want custom layouts.

 

[Blue Shadow]

Such an overlay might help if one like to change the layout, though I'm not sure if there is enough space between the Keys for readable Letters. From the renders, it looks like the gap would be somewhere between 1 and 2 mm. Also the alternative layout next to the original one might be confusing.

But if the space might big enough, you could make self made overlays not just for custom keyboard layouts but also for specific games. Like the overlays for some home computers/consoles like, Texas Instruments(so things come full circle ) 99/4a and Interton vc4000.

So that would add an additional layer of retro-ness

 

[rygD]

It was literally voted on by this community and yes, there is quiet the French and German population here in this community.

Yep, this. It wasn't just the German and French that were pushing for this. I only speak and type (American) English, however I wanted to make sure we could provide a keyboard that worked for as many languages as possible with the limited number of keys we have. Really, this was discussed to death. We did the best we could with what we had and not making it even more "scary".

Why German and French? First, ED is German, he wanted something that worked for him, and since this is his baby he gets what he wants. Also, I think they are (one of) the largest user groups after English speakers. French was next, and they were also very vocal and voted for something that worked for French. I also tried to push for Spanish, but it didn't make it.

Not sure why oskda wants a keyboard that offers less language support (that make up the majority of the community at the time it was created) on the second layer. As I mentioned, I am from the US and I wanted it to be as easy to type with for as many potential buyers as possible. Would it be better to only offer a US layout, similar to what is found on old smartphones with physical keyboards? Remember, we have a limited number of keys, and the Pyra layout supports as many languages as we could squeeze in...yes, some get extra characters labeled on the keyboard.

For recent arrivals, we discussed having additional markings around keys. I don't remember why that idea was thrown out, but probably due to extra costs and no room. The overlay card thing is a good idea if stuff fits on it, and it can be completely customized on an individual basis. Someone just needs to make a template or something.

 

[Drake51]

Need to just scrap it and make everyone unhappy: an all alt-code keyboard!