Analog Joystick

[Tensuke]

Yeah, he said it was smooth and wouldn't affect gameplay. Plus, if you read the description of the video for the new stick he says that it can be made more contoured to grip better and that it's just a prototype stick. It may still have the rotating that some people are complaining about but I'm sure it will look a little different when it is finalized just like how the mk0 cases will look different from mk1.

 

[.Gogeta§§J4BR.]

don't fool yourself into thinking it's ok for an analog slider to have rotation like that, everyone here is clearly either disappointed or isn't sure what to think. also, it clearly bends with ease when under pressure, its problematic to slide it when it behaves like that

 

[gruso]

You seem intent on assuming that it's all a disaster. Why not reserve judgement until you've laid hands on it yourself? The Pandora team has endeavoured to get everything just right. If this weren't the case, we'd probably have Pandora in our hands right now - but it would be full of bugs and niggles.

 

[whiskthecat]

Well if it is going to be as horrid as some of you are guessing, there is always the dpad for a backup. In fact I don't even plan on using the analogs for gaming, never liked the sliders. They will be a good alternative to the touch screen for mouse control though.

 

[CronoTriggerfan]

CronoTriggerfan: it definitely can ruin your gameplay. cmom, you are emulating systems that DON'T have a rotating analog! grip is everything.
"I'm sure that the stick will inevitably touch the case over time, but so did the PSP stick and I really didn't care then" - well, the psp did it but thank god it wasn't that much, because its awful to play with an analog that gets stuck (and the psp one didn't ever get stuck). plus, the psp analog is easily changeable, for anyone tastes

Where in the hell did I say it couldn't? If you read my post the first time, which, based on your false assumption, I assume you didn't, you would find it reads as such:
QUOTE
...the fact that it can rotate is a bit odd, I agree that it may make gameplay in fast-paced FPS games like Quake 3 awkward. The fact that this one lacks the rubbery/textured grip of the original is also quite disappointing, IMO.

That pretty much is a declaration that it may be a problem, if you ask me. And seeing as I'm the one who wrote it, I'm pretty sure I'm the guy to ask!

As for the second point, the debate was never over the analog nub getting "stuck" anywhere, just if it would touch the case at all. I don't foresee any problems with the nubs sticking because they catch the case, but you never know.

The Pandora team has endeavoured to get everything just right. If this weren't the case, we'd probably have Pandora in our hands right now - but it would be full of bugs and niggles.

Normally I would agree with you 100% on that point (that is, that the devs know best,) but even they have yet to hold a final build Pandora, and even on these rapid prototype cases the controls weren't able to be used. I guess what I'm getting at is seeing as no one in the world has actually played a Pandora yet, no one at all knows, not even the devs. I will agree that I don't see a point to flipping out like Gogeta§§J4BR over there is. :lol:

 

[.Gogeta§§J4BR.]

You seem intent on assuming that it's all a disaster. Why not reserve judgement until you've laid hands on it yourself? The Pandora team has endeavoured to get everything just right. If this weren't the case, we'd probably have Pandora in our hands right now - but it would be full of bugs and niggles.

I just don't want a product this good to have major flaws, like an irritating analog slider. When projects are near the end, everyone (big AND small companies) tend to rush things, and that's just bad.

Well if it is going to be as horrid as some of you are guessing, there is always the dpad for a backup. In fact I don't even plan on using the analogs for gaming, never liked the sliders. They will be a good alternative to the touch screen for mouse control though.

well, if money and work is being spent over the analog slider, consider working a little harder and making it good (and not rotating)

CronoTriggerfan: it definitely can ruin your gameplay. cmom, you are emulating systems that DON'T have a rotating analog! grip is everything.
"I'm sure that the stick will inevitably touch the case over time, but so did the PSP stick and I really didn't care then" - well, the psp did it but thank god it wasn't that much, because its awful to play with an analog that gets stuck (and the psp one didn't ever get stuck). plus, the psp analog is easily changeable, for anyone tastes

Where in the hell did I say it couldn't? If you read my post the first time, which, based on your false assumption, I assume you didn't, you would find it reads as such:
QUOTE
...the fact that it can rotate is a bit odd, I agree that it may make gameplay in fast-paced FPS games like Quake 3 awkward. The fact that this one lacks the rubbery/textured grip of the original is also quite disappointing, IMO.

That pretty much is a declaration that it may be a problem, if you ask me. And seeing as I'm the one who wrote it, I'm pretty sure I'm the guy to ask!

Yes, exactly I did understand what you said, notice that my last reply was towards nubie's attempt to attenuate the problem.

Normally I would agree with you 100% on that point (that is, that the devs know best,) but even they have yet to hold a final build Pandora, and even on these rapid prototype cases the controls weren't able to be used. I guess what I'm getting at is seeing as no one in the world has actually played a Pandora yet, no one at all knows, not even the devs. I will agree that I don't see a point to flipping out like Gogeta§§J4BR over there is. :lol:

getting the pandora made right is just a matter of some more money and work. after that, they are gonna earn money over it, HUGE money, as it's gonna be the world's best portable in multiple areas (multimedia, internet surfing, emulating/homebrew gaming, PDA'ing, etc) for a long time, since the specs are killer.
So it's more than crucial for them to make it great, and a base problem like the analog (or the comfort while playing the portable in general) is gonna be sad.
It's just a matter of them making the analog slider company to make it not rotate, it shouldn't be that hard for them.

 

[nubie]

Is it at all possible that the bending happened because of the strange angle that he was pressing at?

The real one will be on a stiff board and you won't be squeezing it between your thumb and finger.

Personally I don't care about the analogs, I won't be gaming heavily on them.

If I FPS I will use a targus mini-mouse or a USB gamepad. For light use I don't see it being a problem.

For heavy use? I don't know. What I do know is that Craig is going to stand behind the product, if there is a problem with the analogs I am sure he will fix them.

I highly doubt there will be problems, as most people like the d-pad (face it, the retro/emulated and homebrew games don't really have need of analog controls). I am sure they can repair the few units that face wearout issues.

 

[.Gogeta§§J4BR.]

For heavy use? I don't know. What I do know is that Craig is going to stand behind the product, if there is a problem with the analogs I am sure he will fix them.

That's basically what I'm waiting from this topic, Craig's position over this. I don't mean to be pedant, but I think this project has to be very polished for release (at some point or another, this process needs to stop, but not before this control problem is solved).

 

[PoisonedV]

They look uncomfortable, and no click makes problematic for emulation, it already only has 2 shoulder buttons

 

[nubie]

They look uncomfortable, and no click makes problematic for emulation, it already only has 2 shoulder buttons

As in too slippery?

Personally I would like a Pressure based pair of Trackpoint™ nubs. They have microscopic grabbers that will not slip, no matter how greasy your thumb, they are high resolution and resistant to wear. The caps are readily available and replaceable. I think it would be a great idea.

And afaik there are 64+ keys on the thing, explain how missing 2 hinders emulation of any console. (keep in mind the solder pads for extra buttons, if in fact you reeeeeeally need them.)

 

[ish420]

The rotation could be a good thing. A bit of give means your thumb will stay in place on the stick without sliding, if for example you adjust the position of your hands slightly while playing (something I do sometimes due to RSI).

I agree. I can imagine pulling off some easy hadokens on these.

 

[Prometheus]

(at some point or another, this process needs to stop, but not before this control problem is solved).

... I didn't particularly want to post in this thread, but I feel that I have to ask something: Where is the proof of there being any problem at all?

 

[nubie]

(at some point or another, this process needs to stop, but not before this control problem is solved).

... I didn't particularly want to post in this thread, but I feel that I have to ask something: Where is the proof of there being any problem at all?


That is what I say, the salient arguments seem to be:

In the latest Blog post, you can see this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEdJ2V7ltxg


QUOTE

1. I find it weird that it can rotate around the thumb plane
2. I also think its ackward that it can get bent towards the system, as if it could scratch the pandora case.
3. As if the analog nub (the place where you place your thumb) isn't very fixed to the axis.
   

My thoughts are:

1. I don't find rotation weird, thinking about the geometry will reveal that smoother action is gained from a pivot at this small size.
2. I don't think the system will be anywhere near the back of the Joystick, judging by the link I already posted (ED shows final case renders)
3. I don't think we can judge whether or not it is "fixed to the axis" unless we understand the principles it operates on.

I am pretty sure that there will always be some people who don't like things, but I think that it will be OK for most people. The worst I see happening is a replacement if it breaks, or using the DPad (which I fully intend to do anyway.) If it was truly so terrible would they put it in the system?

They are really good with customer service btw, so if yours happens to break you can probably get it resolved. Craig will go to very reasonable lengths you know.

 

[PoisonedV]

They look uncomfortable, and no click makes problematic for emulation, it already only has 2 shoulder buttons

As in too slippery?

Personally I would like a Pressure based pair of Trackpoint™ nubs. They have microscopic grabbers that will not slip, no matter how greasy your thumb, they are high resolution and resistant to wear. The caps are readily available and replaceable. I think it would be a great idea.

And afaik there are 64+ keys on the thing, explain how missing 2 hinders emulation of any console. (keep in mind the solder pads for extra buttons, if in fact you reeeeeeally need them.)

its simply not practical to use the keys and not a button

 

[gaterooze]

its simply not practical to use the keys and not a button

I'm skeptical about this -- can you please name me some games you are likely to play on Pandora with functions that would normally be mapped to stick-clicks (and what they do)?

I've tried to think of any that would cause serious problems (i.e. could not qujite easily be remapped) and am drawing a blank...

 

[whiskthecat]

I haven't tried out the pandora yet but until then all I can say is NGPC sticks ftw.

 

[nubie]

its simply not practical to use the keys and not a button

I would like to know your reasoning, as far as I recall my stance has been that we have 6 action buttons and there are precious few games that need more than 6 action buttons. The other buttons perform a secondary task such as bring up a submenu or perform some function only a few times per game (Edit, or switch weapons), possibly a function you may never require, such as a rear view in a racing game.

I don't think I got a coherent reply to this line of reasoning, if there are many games that do indeed need more than 6 Action buttons I am willing to listen.

I think you have to agree that it is better to have 64 keys to implement controls than the situation with the GP2X where there were only 8 face buttons (2 of them actually volume) and 2 triggers total on the whole device.

 

[Snu]

I would like to know your reasoning, as far as I recall my stance has been that we have 6 action buttons and there are precious few games that need more than 6 action buttons. The other buttons perform a secondary task such as bring up a submenu or perform some function only a few times per game (Edit, or switch weapons), possibly a function you may never require, such as a rear view in a racing game.

I don't think I got a coherent reply to this line of reasoning, if there are many games that do indeed need more than 6 Action buttons I am willing to listen.

this thing was debated extensively a while back... we really shouldnt get into this again.
i agree, 6 action buttons is enough... but the point is, when you are using both sticks to control a game, there arent 6 action buttons, there are two (the shoulder buttons). spending time to move your thumb over to press the other action buttons could be quite fatal in some games... in fact it might be easier to reach the number buttons along the top (really wont know until i try it out tho i guess).

 

[PoisonedV]

Yeah. I was being difficult, but in the past I've had trouble with a PS2 styled controller with some games, especially pc-engine games

 

[nubie]

this thing was debated extensively a while back... we really shouldnt get into this again.
i agree, 6 action buttons is enough... but the point is, when you are using both sticks to control a game, there arent 6 action buttons, there are two (the shoulder buttons). spending time to move your thumb over to press the other action buttons could be quite fatal in some games... in fact it might be easier to reach the number buttons along the top (really wont know until i try it out tho i guess).

I guess you are right, it is too bad that there isn't room for two triggers per side, it is so small.

Actually, since it is so small maybe you can hit the top row of the qwerty with your thumb that is moving the sliders?

I agree with you that we would need to try it out first. There isn't really anything they can do if the parts aren't available, it wouldn't be possible for them to design and build their own sticks.

@ PoisonedV

Oh, that might account for some of our problems seeing eye-to-eye, I was basing your comments on a PS2 controller in my head :lol: :lol: .