A possible explanation for the sudden influx of pre-orderers (the "500 instead of 150")

aatu

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(I have been away for a while, so I might have missed and/or forgot some details, so apologies if this brings a "well, duh!" reaction for some)

(also, I know I'm a little late for the party, as most people have already moved on from this specific discussion, so apologies for that, too)

I think there was quite a bit of wondering and discussion with regards to how the remaining pre-order quantity could have jumped so drastically from the expected 150 to the 500. Well, one thing that occurred to me, and I don't remember anyone else bringing this scenario forward, either. So here goes:

What if the "500" survey responders actually counted for Craig's refund requesters, also? I was under the impression that the expected 150 was for the remaining pre-orderers, who were still waiting for a Pandora, but wouldn't include the people who had already requested a refund. And we know Craig wasn't refunding anyone for quite some time, so there probably was a substantial amount of them. So what if Craig indeed did have around 100-150 pre-orderers waiting, but directed the refund requesters to the survey, too (out of which 76 still opted for the refund, even though it should have been quite clear that refunds were not ever gonna happen)?

If we count them like that, it suddenly starts to make more sense. I know that's quite a simple and obvious explanation, so maybe this has been suggested already (and possibly even shot down or agreed upon)?

But I would like to know for certain, and therefore I'm asking this here:
Did the refund-people also get the survey? Also, why have you been so silent recently? I don't see many refund requesters exploding over the strike-off-email. On the other hand, I would have assumed 500 people would make a bigger noise than what we got after the strike-off email, in any case...

Well, not that it matters in the big picture, as Craig in any case seems to be in no position to refund nor provide Pandoras to anyone. But it would indeed bring some clarity to the question where all the pre-orderers suddenly appeared from. As for the legality of this maneuver: I think Craig would have had to separate the "refundees" from the rest, or at least inform ED that the "500" included both.
(or maybe he did, and this has been known all along, and I just missed it...)

... Any thoughts, anyone?
 

andmaz777

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A little harsh but as he has "run away" from everything then what else can people think?


At the very least he needs to be banned from dealing with other peoples money as he has now proved he is incompetent in this area. Grabbing defeat from the jaws of victory is very hard to do - ICP2 had a working prototype and was ready for mass production!


There is no more to be said and I now have a strong feeling that the "real" truth especially from the last few years will not be good -hence the silence!


Hope I am completely wrong!
 

dooble

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It was not obvious when the first survey came out that refunds would not come as Ed was going to try to support that even though he did not have an obligation to provide them.   When the numbers became known, it became quite obvious.  At that point I donated my pre-order... at least removes the obligation.

Why has it quieted down.

  1. Those who live in the up (or possibly EU) can file with the organization looking at striking off OP Ltd. or with small claims.  Thus their focus is off the boards
  2. Those from elsewhere can't use either of those methods and its obvious that it is never coming and there is nowhere to go next
I'm just glad I did not go for ICP2 as others did.

doob 
 

EvilDragon

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We will never find out, what happened.

Has Craig done a speculation that didn't go as well as he hoped?

Has he lost track of the orders and this was a guess?

Has he done it intentionally?

We don't know, and I don't want to blame him for things he maybe didn't do.

He had a heavy load on his shoulders which can lead to the fact that he simply was not able to deal in a proper way with it.

Is he a bad person? Well, he probably has his bad sides like anyone of us, but he also has his good sides.

I don't think he had bad intentions for anything, but he just doesn't seem to be able to organize large scale projects.
 

ekianjo

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I don't think he had bad intentions for anything, but he just doesn't seem to be able to organize large scale projects.
ED, I really respect you for being so nice, but seriously, reselling on ebay the Pandoras you sent him back, the ones that were for the preorders... how can you say there were not bad intentions there? 
 

aatu

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@dooble:
I don't mean silent only recently (~1 month), I mean I didn't hear much from the refund requesters after the strike-off email (~3 months). There were quite a few of them asking questions when there still was the "Ask Craig" -section. Wouldn't the strike-off email wake them up, at the latest? The "waiters" were quite vocal, why would the "refundees" be any different, as they're in the same position with regards to the strike-off? Actually, they should be in a more ambiguous status, so they should have even more questions.

@eumnehS:
Well, there's no need to get so aggressive. If there is indeed prior discussion regarding the "jump", I would be most obliged to read up on them. Judging from your reaction, there's plenty. Could you provide some thread links? (or did you mean something else with "this"?)

(Well, I do remember that the survey sent triple confirm notifications to some people, which gave some initial hope for the 500 being too high, but I think that theory was shot down, already. But apart from that, I don't currently remember any other major discussion regarding the "jump".)

@EvilDragon:
Hmm, then I presume you guys didn't have any specific agreement (or discussion about it) with regards to who Craig would send the survey to?

I'm not sure whether it would be "illegal" or not to include the "refundees" to the survey, and I don't know of such a law that would specify anything like this. But I think it would be at least a proper business practice to inform one's affiliates from the plans, too. Especially when the survey was primarily to provide the necessary details to those affiliates.
 
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Klumpen

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Wouldn't the strike-off email wake them up, at the latest? The "waiters" were quite vocal, why would the "refundees" be any different, as they're in the same position with regards to the strike-off? Actually, they should be in a more ambiguous status, so they should have even more questions.
Oh, it did... there were several new threads at once from/with people ranting at OpenPandora GmbH because of OpenPandora ltd.

That's why this thread was created besides others.
 
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aatu

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There was a wake-up, yes, but those were pretty much always the "waiters", from what I've seen. Through a brief glance, there seems to be only one(?) person coming forward as a refund requester in the thread you're linking to...? There should be loads more. (especially when there was/is a separate section for further questions where login isn't even required)
 
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Klumpen

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As said, the thread was made because of tons of others threads from various people at that time, so ED doesn't have to repeat all this over and over again. Notaz made a good thread for this too, but I cannot find it anymore, because it does not seem to be pinned on top anywhere.
 
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Hồng Thất Công

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@eumnehS:


Well, there's no need to get so aggressive. If there is indeed prior discussion regarding the "jump", I would be most obliged to read up on them. Judging from your reaction, there's plenty. Could you provide some thread links? (or did you mean something else with "this"?)


(Well, I do remember that the survey sent triple confirm notifications to some people, which gave some initial hope for the 500 being too high, but I think that theory was shot down, already. But apart from that, I don't currently remember any other major discussion regarding the "jump".)
http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/14913-openpandora-ltd-uk-struck-off-email/?hl=craig

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/11243-trying-to-get-my-pre-order-refunded/page-8?hl=craig#entry301672

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/12014-yet-to-receive-my-pandora-which-was-ordered-in-2008/page-2?hl=craig#entry301263

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15060-faq-for-remaining-preorders-of-openpandora-ltd/page-2?hl=craig#entry301039

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15171-to-anyone-involved-into-the-icp2-project/?hl=craig

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15341-craigs-selling-even-more-pandoras-on-ebay-for-%C2%A389/?hl=craig#entry303833

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/15304-english-vs-american-vs-european-law/?hl=craig

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/14913-openpandora-ltd-uk-struck-off-email/

 

... and more but I'm tired of searching :)
 
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aatu

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Hmm, apparently what you're talking about is "Craig". What I'm talking about (like the title says, and I even separately made a distinction of it in my previous reply to you), is the "jump from 150 to 500". Well, I did also ask where all the refund requesters are, but even that was a side question, the main topic was still the "jump". Although apparently that also garnered additional focus on the "Craig" part, and the main topic got side-tracked, sorry about that. But indeed, I have already personally participated in the "Craig" agenda, so I'm not actually looking for that kind of discussion, and it wasn't my intention to open wounds with regards to "that crap". So while the topic is indeed linked to Craig, we don't have to make this topic ABOUT him.

So the linked threads as such are for a different topic, or is there specifically discussion about the jump, that I missed? At least the links don't directly lead to any replies of that topic.

(Well, the "English vs American vs European law" thread is of personal interest, so might look into that later. Missed that totally as I don't pay any attention to the iCP2 sub-section...)
 

levi

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I've also had a little dig around the search box, looking for posts about 'the jump'.  Only thing I've been able to find so far is this recent post documenting that there were 445 people remaining from the survey responders not with a Pandora yet.  I know there have been posts in the past referring the Craig's claim there were only 100 or so people left without Pandoras, a figure which was plumbed into ED's calculations for the last funding round (but the figure was only revealed when all those people sent survey responses back), and posts explicitly talking about that discrepancy, but I can't find them at the moment.
 
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dooble

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@dooble:


I don't mean silent only recently (~1 month), I mean I didn't hear much from the refund requesters after the strike-off email (~3 months). There were quite a few of them asking questions when there still was the "Ask Craig" -section. Wouldn't the strike-off email wake them up, at the latest? The "waiters" were quite vocal, why would the "refundees" be any different, as they're in the same position with regards to the strike-off? Actually, they should be in a more ambiguous status, so they should have even more questions.


@eumnehS:


Well, there's no need to get so aggressive. If there is indeed prior discussion regarding the "jump", I would be most obliged to read up on them. Judging from your reaction, there's plenty. Could you provide some thread links? (or did you mean something else with "this"?)


(Well, I do remember that the survey sent triple confirm notifications to some people, which gave some initial hope for the 500 being too high, but I think that theory was shot down, already. But apart from that, I don't currently remember any other major discussion regarding the "jump".)


@EvilDragon:


Hmm, then I presume you guys didn't have any specific agreement (or discussion about it) with regards to who Craig would send the survey to?


I'm not sure whether it would be "illegal" or not to include the "refundees" to the survey, and I don't know of such a law that would specify anything like this. But I think it would be at least a proper business practice to inform one's affiliates from the plans, too. Especially when the survey was primarily to provide the necessary details to those affiliates.
There was a blip of posts when the strike off email came out.  Those in the UK and possibly EU noted they could file and posted in some other thread.  Those outside the region had no recourse.  Let it die off.  It does not benefit Ed or the future of these boards.  I do believe the screwed have the right to bitch.... to remind the noobs as to what can happen. Craigx will be back somewhere... after ICP2 resolves.

Many people lost not only $, but trust and faith.  Look at ICP2 on kickstarter if you don't believe.
 

levi

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I can't see the last update to the kickstarter - was the text of it posted anywhere out of interest? But the public commenters there do seem to be pretty angry... and talking about sueing Link :(


Also, amusingly, they found this
 

shaurz

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I did ask for a refund at one point (although I don't care either way), I have not been contacted by anyone, I have no idea what this survey is and I only heard of it today when I decided to see what was going on these days. I think I have been forgotten about. I wonder how many more people like me are out there too.
 

hedwards

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I did ask for a refund at one point (although I don't care either way), I have not been contacted by anyone, I have no idea what this survey is and I only heard of it today when I decided to see what was going on these days. I think I have been forgotten about. I wonder how many more people like me are out there too.
Most likely if you requested a refund, you were taken off the queue and placed in the queue for refunds. And I have no idea where the money to pay that would come from at this point. The queues were always rather queer in that I was like number 1500-1600 and It never did get to me, I wound up upgrading in late 2012.

I don't believe that ED has any repsonsibility at all for people that asked for their money back from Craig. I guess technically he doesn't have any responsibility for Craig's customers at all, but I'm positive he won't be giving out money to them, and I'm not sure that the plans for getting people their units include those that asked for refunds.

But,given the apparent state of Craig's records, who know how much of the change was clerical error, exaggeration and lieing.
 

Godmil

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Did you ask for a refund?  Refunds were taking off the pandora queue and put in a refund queue. ED is only able to help out the people who are still in the Pandora queue, everyone else has to try to take legal action against craig before he manages to dissolve his company if they're to see anything from him.
 
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