Trying to get my pre-order refunded

[Mr_Loon]

Cavalier or not, hundreds of thousands of pounds being lost due to 3rd party incompetence isn't something you can really plan for.

Unless you have a contractual agreement with said 3rd party supplier, if they breach the contractual agreement you can activate a penalty clause / sue for damages.

The problem I suspect was that to set up such a contract would probably cost £500 & that someone with a cavalier attitude to finances would not bother to do so thinking they are saving themselves £500.

 

[hedwards]

Cavalier or not, hundreds of thousands of pounds being lost due to 3rd party incompetence isn't something you can really plan for.

Unless you have a contractual agreement with said 3rd party supplier, if they breach the contractual agreement you can activate a penalty clause / sue for damages.


The problem I suspect was that to set up such a contract would probably cost £500 & that someone with a cavalier attitude to finances would not bother to do so thinking they are saving themselves £500.

This is simply not true. Whether or not there's a written contract doesn't change the fact that there was a contract and that CC almost certainly breached it. As ED already stated, when you don't negotiate specific failure rates and such, it defaults to the industry standard, which is lower than CC's failure rate. It's a leap to far to suggest that there was no contract when the money was being provided to CC for the purposes of creating the boards.

No court is ever going to rule that somebody accepting money to produce things doesn't have a contractual arrangement to provide the units they're being paid to produce. And OPT sure as hell can sue if they have the money to do so.

That last part, and probably the time it would take, are likely why there hasn't been a suit, there's no reason to believe that even with just a verbal contract that they couldn't sue for their damages. Proving the damages is usually the sticking point anyways, and they would have no trouble with that.

I'm not sure why I bother coming in here at all these days, the amount of BS being spread around is mind blowing. I personally have serious issues with the way that Craig does certain things, but there's no reason to make up stories to make him look bad. What's next, photoshopping handle bar mustaches into his photos?

 

[burito]

I'm at the point where I think it would be appropriate for the Pandora folks to opt for bankruptcy, I think it only fair that such a permanent mark affect ED, Jaqueline, Craig, et all for the rest of their lives.

Doesn't really leave a mark in UK, I think. Craig already had a company which went into bankruptcy a few years ago (due to being sued by Sony for selling imported PSPs).


And as mentioned above, my company has funds and is not bankrupt, so it wouldn't even be possible.

>>>It has been over 4 years since I ordered, and I have not received a single piece of correspondence from anyone. Bankruptcy is the appropriate consequence for fucking up this bad.

Then again, what do I have to do with that?


You are not my customer (different company), I don't even have any details nor information about you, so it's not my duty to correspond with you.


(Or have you ever contacted me?)

You might want to ask your lawyer about the legal ramifications of the word "recommend".

 

[EvilDragon]

You might want to ask your lawyer about the legal ramifications of the word "recommend".

What would you like to tell me with that?


My lawyer followed the whole story for a while now.


Before gathering investors I made sure nothing bad can happen from this side.

 

[Mr_Loon]

Get your popcorn folks, this is going to be good I'm no fan of forum lawyers or pointless debates, but I'm also no fan of the propagation of absolute nonsense based on no understanding whatsoever of the subject in question.


I do not claim to be any sort of expert in US company law and can fully accept that they do things differently stateside but I studied UK & EU Company Law up to College level & my younger brother was a highly successful commercial Lawyer until he tragically died in 2004. He spent many hours over the years educating me in legal concepts, I learned far more from him about jurisprudence than I did at College, let's put it that way. Please accept my sincere and humble apology Hedwards if what you have written is based upon expertise or real understanding.

This is simply not true. Whether or not there's a written contract doesn't change the fact that there was a contract and that CC almost certainly breached it.

Sit back and read that again, it's quite simply hilarious. Try suing someone for breach of contract without a written contract where the case is in any way similar to OP Ltd Vs Circuit Co. Speak to a lawyer about this if you know any.

As ED already stated, when you don't negotiate specific failure rates and such, it defaults to the industry standard, which is lower than CC's failure rate. It's a leap to far to suggest that there was no contract when the money was being provided to CC for the purposes of creating the boards.

What industry standard? Who decides what this figure is in legal terms? Where is it defined? Circuit Co did create boards, my guess is the agreement was that when functional boards were provided by Circuit Co OP Ltd would pay for them. This is what happened.

No court is ever going to rule that somebody accepting money to produce things doesn't have a contractual arrangement to provide the units they're being paid to produce. And OPT sure as hell can sue if they have the money to do so.


That last part, and probably the time it would take, are likely why there hasn't been a suit, there's no reason to believe that even with just a verbal contract that they couldn't sue for their damages. Proving the damages is usually the sticking point anyways, and they would have no trouble with that.

Have you heard of No Win, No Fee? If the moral / logical case against CC was as strong as has been reported then Lawyers would be lining up to take it on if there had been a written contract that had been breached. As for lack of time, one thing that OP Ltd did have was plenty of time.

I'm not sure why I bother coming in here at all these days, the amount of BS being spread around is mind blowing. I personally have serious issues with the way that Craig does certain things, but there's no reason to make up stories to make him look bad. What's next, photoshopping handle bar mustaches into his photos?

I am not making up stories, merely providing the one credible hypothesis that I can come up with as to why OP Ltd have not sued Circuit Co. Craig has been given ample opportunity to provide some concrete facts but chose not to do so.

 

[klapse]

What industry standard? Who decides what this figure is in legal terms? Where is it defined? Circuit Co did create boards, my guess is the agreement was that when functional boards were provided by Circuit Co OP Ltd would pay for them. This is what happened.

That is not what happened. Your guess is wrong. Based on what Ed has publicly written, CC was paid at (least in part) before they let the boards oxidize.

 

[Neelix]

I'm sure I remember either ED or Craig stating outright that CC got paid based on working product produced - paid after the fact.

My suspicion is that that was probably the driving influence behind them letting the boards oxidize rather than populating them as per their promise. I suspect that they didn't want to spend the man hours or machine hours on a project that they had no way of knowing for certain would ever actually pay.   Of course this is pure speculation on my part.

- Neelix

 

[burito]

You might want to ask your lawyer about the legal ramifications of the word "recommend".

What would you like to tell me with that?


My lawyer followed the whole story for a while now.


Before gathering investors I made sure nothing bad can happen from this side.

As the public face of the Pandora, and the guy who told everyone where it could be purchased, and recommended which shop to use based on location, you have recommended Craig's shop.

As such, you are liable for any loss caused as a result of such recommendation.

The forums have been deleted once, so there's no evidence either way, it's just your word, against the word of all of Craig's pre-orders that don't have their devices yet.

Who do you think a judge will believe?

The fact that someone hasn't been sued yet is evidence enough of professional misconduct, someone is going to get in really big legal troubles. Whether it's you is well, up to you.

 

[mcobit]

On the first preorders, this is not true as everybody ordered where he wanted to order. Based on shippingcosts etc.


For the GHz orders, the same thing is true. I don't think ED can be sued because he recommended to buy from Craig if there was an advantage for the customer. Nobody knew that things could turn out this way!

 

[EvilDragon]

You might want to ask your lawyer about the legal ramifications of the word "recommend".

What would you like to tell me with that?


My lawyer followed the whole story for a while now.


Before gathering investors I made sure nothing bad can happen from this side.

As the public face of the Pandora, and the guy who told everyone where it could be purchased, and recommended which shop to use based on location, you have recommended Craig's shop.

No, I never "recommended" Craigs shop. When someone asked, I always mentioned the different possibilities where you can order it, that included the GP2X Shop as well as GBAX / OpenPandora Sales.


By the way, here is the preorder thread:


http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?/topic/44553-how-to-order/


Craig posted that and recommended my shop (and Fatihs), not the other way round.

The website itself didn't even have a direct preorder-information back then:


http://web.archive.org/web/20080828165749/http://openpandora.org/

As such, you are liable for any loss caused as a result of such recommendation.

That would be horrible. If someone recommends a shop via Facebook because he had good experience with it, and that shop doesn't deliver goods to some person, the one posting on Facebook would be liable for the loss?

I'm pretty sure that's not the case here in Germany.


If the shop would've been directly integrated into the main website, that would've been something different. But even later, the website always listed different shops where to buy it. Mine was one of them.


All other "How to order"-Posts were on the boards, mostly done by Craig.

According to German Law, an order is NOT valid before the company where you placed that order confirms your order.


My company only confirmed the orders to my customers, there never had been any contract between my company and Craigs customers.


Besides, you can look it up, but OpenPandora GmbH didn't even exist before October 8th, 2008.


Most of the preorders mainly happened between September 30th and October 5th.


OpenPandora GmbH couldn't even have recommended you buy from OP Ltd., as it didn't exist at that date.


Legally, the only thing that ever existed between OpenPandora Ltd. and OpenPandora GmbH was:

My company will provide 4000 LCDs to OpenPandora Ltd. and get 700 Pandoras in return.


That was the only thing our both companies ever had as an agreement.

I provided the LCDs but never got enough Pandoras (I got about 300 - 400 Pandoras, would need to check the exact number). 


Okay, I got about 1200 LCDs back to continue the production, but it would still mean that legally, OpenPandora Ltd. owes me money as it owes money to its customers.


Craig also promised my company that the units would be ready for christmas 2008 or shortly after.

We all know what happened afterwards (CC, etc.), which is also the reason didn't try to get that money back from OP Ltd. but rather try to get us all through this.


Legally though, it would be the case.

The forums have been deleted once, so there's no evidence either way, it's just your word, against the word of all of Craig's pre-orders that don't have their devices yet.

The forums have never been deleted. What are you talking about?


gp32x.de still exists, the temporary boards that had been created when gp32x.de was down for a while also still exist: http://forum.openhandhelds.org/

Who do you think a judge will believe?

A judge will not listen to a large crowd shouting, it will first listen to all the different facts there are. If laws would be based on the amount of people shouting for justice, not on facts, when we would be back in the middle ages where often people were turned into scapegoats and punished simply because a crowd wanted that.


So... the facts are:


1. Most of the preorders had been done before OP GmbH existed.


2. While different shops were listed on the official website, ordering and order confirmation ALWAYS happened explicitely with the shop you ordered from.


3. Legally, OP Ltd. still owes my company money and didn't fulfill the promise to deliver the units I should get early 2009.

The fact that someone hasn't been sued yet is evidence enough of professional misconduct, someone is going to get in really big legal troubles. Whether it's you is well, up to you.

You know, when I read stuff like that I really think I shouldn't even support Craigs customers anymore and let them deal with Craig, instead of trying to send out as many units to them as possible. I took 350K debts to do this, and if this is the thanks I'm receiving, then that's totally awesome.

Thank god I know I'm doing all of this work because there are so many customers who ARE supportive - and I want to support them as good as possible as well.

For the GHz orders, the same thing is true. I don't think ED can be sued because he recommended to buy from Craig if there was an advantage for the customer. Nobody knew that things could turn out this way!

The orders for the 1GHz units happened based on a post Craig made at the boards here. I never told anyone to order from Craig in this case.

 

[Mr_Loon]

@ burito : Please read this guide which clearly sums up the current state of affairs. When you have done so come back here, your portion of freshly baked humble pie will be waiting for you  . It's fully understood that the situation as to who is responsible & what went wrong with the Pandora pre orders is complicated and convoluted, but a word of advice : make sure you fully understand the situation before you start bandying around statements such as :

As the public face of the Pandora, and the guy who told everyone where it could be purchased, and recommended which shop to use based on location, you have recommended Craig's shop.

You might want to ask your lawyer about the legal ramifications of the word "recommend".

The forums have been deleted once, so there's no evidence either way, it's just your word, against the word of all of Craig's pre-orders that don't have their devices yet.

etc.

 
If I was ED and had read the stuff you wrote in your posts above I would (in verbal terms) have torn you a new arsehole, it speaks a lot about ED's character that he graced you with such a measured and reasonable response.

 

[Exophase]

As the public face of the Pandora, and the guy who told everyone where it could be purchased, and recommended which shop to use based on location, you have recommended Craig's shop.

As such, you are liable for any loss caused as a result of such recommendation.

The forums have been deleted once, so there's no evidence either way, it's just your word, against the word of all of Craig's pre-orders that don't have their devices yet.

Who do you think a judge will believe?

The fact that someone hasn't been sued yet is evidence enough of professional misconduct, someone is going to get in really big legal troubles. Whether it's you is well, up to you.

I know you're angry and want someone to yell at because you got ripped off but ED is not only not accountable for anything you think he is but he's been doing everything he can to help Craig's customers, including loud mouths like yourself. So take your dumb made up legal threats to someone else please. Or maybe talk to your lawyer about it, I'm sure he'll be happy to hear your grievances for a reasonable consulting fee.

 

[bismuthdrummer]

The fact that someone hasn't been sued yet is evidence enough of professional misconduct, someone is going to get in really big legal troubles. Whether it's you is well, up to you.

If you have some case in a first world court where absence of litigation is presented as evidence of misconduct, I'd love to see it. Otherwise you may want to correct this statement; it sounds just a tad idiotic.

 

[andmaz777]

I know lets pick on and upset the one person trying to sort Craig's mess out?


Unbelievable!


I ordered from Craig as the operator in my Country simple as that - no recommendation it's just what you did - today I would order directly from ED unless Craig 100% guaranteed immediate delivery.

 

[hedwards]

EDIT: You know what, I have better things to do with my time. It's clear you don't know what you're talking about, so I'm not sure why I'm bothering to reply.

 

[klapse]

I am curious to see some confirmation about when CC got paid for the board production.


Ed's comment 'the board production was a 300k loss' leads me to believe that CC was paid in advance of delivery (otherwise why would have OPT paid?) but it would be helpful if Ed could clarify this.

 

[EvilDragon]

CC got paid within 30 days after delivery for each board they delivered (regardless whether it was defective or not).


The last 800 or so PCBs were never delivered as they totally failed, so these had not been paid.


However, all parts and the bare PCBs had been paid upfront, this is where the main damage comes from.

 

[Mr_Loon]

CC got paid within 30 days after delivery for each board they delivered (regardless whether it was defective or not).


The last 800 or so PCBs were never delivered as they totally failed, so these had not been paid.


However, all parts and the bare PCBs had been paid upfront, this is where the main damage comes from.

That clearly illustrates why there should have been a properly formulated legal contract in place between CC & OP Ltd.


To ensure that defective boards were not paid for & that any items returned by CC would be returned in the condition which they were received.


Hindsight is 20/20 and all that, let's just hope lessons have been learned.

Edit : I'm not banging on about this to try and say 'Look at all the obvious mistakes that were made, I'd have done things much better' I know for sure that if I were in charge of the Pandora Project things would never have even got off the ground.

It's just that people with unfulfilled pre orders are told that money lost due to CC is the reason that they do not have a Pandora. If there was a viable option to recover that money (sue Circuit Co for breach of contract) then I think that those people with unfulfilled orders should be told why this option has not been taken / or is not in fact a viable option.

 

[burito]

That OP GmBH idn't exist until after the ordering, kind of supports the idea that it will be the Open Pandora Team (being the people who were espousing it) as the liable parties in this case.

Under the law of the location the payments were processed, crown law, yes, recommendations can be used to hold the recommeder liable for the recommendee's failures, that's also the case under American law, although as you rightly point out, the law doesn't appear to be written with facebook in mind, that doesn't change it's legality one bit.

It's been over 4 years, people not as friendly as me are currently pouring over this looking for ways to get you back.

You can't honestly say that because CC fucked up, Craig's orders suffer but not yours. You shipped CC units, it was a partnership at that point, and I'm pretty sure any judge on this planet will see this for what it is now looking to be, a clear attempt post-hock to push all of the blame onto the member who has the least to lose.

 

[Binky]

Those are some big allegations - do you have any citations for them? Are you a legal professional/lawyer?