Trying to get my pre-order refunded

[Mr_Loon]

...

You shipped CC units, it was a partnership at that point

...

It was not a partnership, OP Ltd & OP GmbH were, are and always have been separate entities in corporate & legal terms.

Originally OP GmbH would ship units to their customers that were supplied to them by OP ltd, it should now be the other way round, only OP Ltd can give a clear explanation as to why that is not happening.

 

[EvilDragon]

Exactly.

The deal was pretty clear: OP GmbH will provide 4000 LCDs and will receive 700 Pandoras for that from OP Ltd.

OP GmbH fulfilled the deal, OP Ltd. did not.

We know the reason (OP Ltd. didn't get enough working PCBs from CC), but that reason is not affecting the above deal.

Legally, OP Ltd. owes OP GmbH Pandoras, same as OP Ltd. owes Pandoras to its remaining customers.

That was the full deal, nothing else.

Later on...

2011, OP GmbH grabbed investors to continue the production and provide both units to OP Ltd. and OP GmbH.

The original plan was to use all parts that exist somewhere and provide units to both equally.

OP GmbH got the remaining LCDs from OP Ltd. (thus the debt from OP Ltd. shrinks).

However, as OP Ltd. needed funds for refunds, OP GmbH also bought the remaining parts (for about 70K EUR).

70K EUR are about 250 Pandoras, therefore, the delivery of remaining units was not equally from the beginning (as OP Ltd. basically got a value of 250 Pandoras upfront), but now that basically catched on and I'm delivering units equally to both companies.

This only works up to the original plan (OP Ltd. would've gotten 800 preorders), the remaining units of OP Ltd. can only be funded if there is enough money coming in from profits.

 

[burito]

It's funny, every time you start typing more and more holes appear in this story.

How could any of that be the case if OP Gmbh didn't exist until after the pre-order period?

There are massive holes in your story, fill them out before the lawyers fill them for you.

 

[EvilDragon]

You know, my lawyers accompanied me from the beginning of the whole thing until now.
What makes you think you know more about the legal situation than my lawyers...?

I don't see where you see a hole here.
The LCDs had been bought AFTER the preorders happened.
Craig from OP Ltd. made a newspost how you can preorder. He also directed people from Europe to me (not the other way round).

The confirmation of orders redirected to me had been sent by OP GmbH after it had been established.

That's a perfectly legal way, my lawyers helped me with that.
So OP GmbH didn't recommend to buy from OP Ltd. - it was the other way round.

About the LCDs:
Of course, OP GmbH needs to pay for the units to OP Ltd.
You can either do that via cash flow or through credit.
The credit were the LCDs, worth as much as those Pandoras I shoudl've gotten.

OP GmbH could've also sent the payment as cash to OP Ltd., legally, it would've been the same.

So, what's next?
Do you try to tell that everyone who already received his Pandora owes the money to those who didn't get it yet?

That would be the same.

OP GmbH ordered 700 Pandoras from OP Ltd. (and paid for them), OP Ltd. recommended to buy it from OP GmbH if you live in Germany and didn't get all these units.
OP GmbH never told anyone to buy from OP Ltd. - it was the other way round.

So, why exactly do you think OP Ltd. customers should legally get something from OP GmbH?

 

[klapse]

As the public face of the Pandora, and the guy who told everyone where it could be purchased, and recommended which shop to use based on location, you have recommended Craig's shop.


As such, you are liable for any loss caused as a result of such recommendation.

LOL. I recommend you go jump in a lake.


I wonder if this guy really believes what he is typing...

 

[Nintendo]

Steady on, klapsy.

 

[Binky]

@burito

Those are some big allegations - do you have any citations for them? Are you a legal professional/lawyer?

This is still unanswered - throwing allegations around does no good to anybody

 

[EvilDragon]

I wonder if this guy really believes what he is typing...

Well, he is not wrong.

Depending on how two companies act when working together, this can become an issue.

If it's not clear WHERE you order from, for example.

But the shops always had their own websites, including their own General Terms and Conditions as well as a clear information which company you ordered from (as mail confirmation, etc.)

At least my company always did that - not sure if Craig had all the legal mumbojumbo in his eMails or on the shop pages, but I also don't know which information he HAD to put on his website or his eMail legally, as I only know German laws, not UK ones.

 

[Scntrblob]

It's funny, every time you start typing more and more holes appear in this story.

How could any of that be the case if OP Gmbh didn't exist until after the pre-order period?

There are massive holes in your story, fill them out before the lawyers fill them for you.

Edit: Ah, forget it. It's not worth it.

 

[klapse]

I wonder if this guy really believes what he is typing...

Well, he is not wrong.
Depending on how two companies act when working together, this can become an issue.


If it's not clear WHERE you order from, for example.


But the shops always had their own websites, including their own General Terms and Conditions as well as a clear information which company you ordered from (as mail confirmation, etc.)


At least my company always did that - not sure if Craig had all the legal mumbojumbo in his eMails or on the shop pages, but I also don't know which information he HAD to put on his website or his eMail legally, as I only know German laws, not UK ones.

Thanks for the clarification. So.. if the companies were not acting as seperate entities then they would potentially share liabilities to the customers.

 

[mcobit]

Yes, if both shops would be run by the same company.


This never was the case.


And be thankful that it isn't because else right now there would be a good chance that nobody would recieve Pandoras anymore.

 

[burito]

So who owns openpandora.org?

whois says it's gp2x.com

I for one followed the bouncing ball from openpandora.org, so the owner of that site made the recommendation, or at least someone who was acting on their orders did, either way.

 

[mcobit]

The server where openpandora.org is hosted is owned by EvilDragon, but Craig has some webspace on it where he put up his own sites.

The owner of the website is responsible for the contents, not the owner of the server it is running on.

Of course, the owner of the server has to remove bad stuff, but only if it its brought to his attention.

Edit: It is no recommendation when you have a website with all the shops listed. You could have bought from either one but i think you just thought to yourself:

Well, they are in the UK, so maybe I'll get my unit quicker and for less shipping costs.


That's not really a recommendation.

 

[Grench]

So who owns openpandora.org?

whois says it's gp2x.com

I for one followed the bouncing ball from openpandora.org, so the owner of that site made the recommendation, or at least someone who was acting on their orders did, either way.

You're trying to use hindsight to imply culpability.  Back when Craig's shop was taking pre-orders, none of us had any idea it would turn out as it did.  

Your bouncing ball is akin to finding an ad in a newspaper, going to that shop, having problems, then trying to go after another company who uses the same newspaper to advertise the same product in.

Your issue is with CraigIX's shop.  ED has graciously, and in many opinions beyond reason, used his profits from the project to continue to fulfill Craig's orders.  ED has no liability to do so - this is being done out of his good will.  That good will stops wherever ED says it does.

ED is the good guy in this - to the point of it becoming his greatest fault.

 

[Binky]

ED is the good guy in this - to the point of it becoming his greatest fault.

... and his greatest strength.

In the long term, respect is worth more than money.

 

[eki]

Never got the product, and never got a refund. I think this is a scam.

 

[EvilDragon]

... and that's something you need to post in nearly every single thread you can find?

There's an Old Preorders section which has a lot of information as well as the possibility to ask further questions here.

BTW:

Even if you will never get your money or the product, scam is the wrong term for it, as it is the cause of many bad things that happened. Craig might've made some bad decisions, but he never had the intention to NOT deliver the Pandora.

 

[EvilDragon]

Automatic message

This topic has been moved from "Pandora → Getting a Pandora → Sales support" to "Pandora → Getting a Pandora → Old Preorders".

 

[splozi]

So here we are about 7 months since I started this thread and made my initial contacts. I've tried twice to inquire again about the status of my refund, with no replies this time.

Has anything changed since then, or is the idea of a refund still a dream?

 

[Godmil]

'fraid there's not been any development getting anything from Craig.  ED is doing well with the pre-order queue though, since the last change of plan to encourage people to chip in for upgrades a lot of people are going for it, and there are still lots of donations coming in, it seems to be supply constrained at the moment (which is probably the better end of things).

Craig's been a little reclusive lately, maybe we'll hear more from him once the iCP2 starts moving.