2 Months..... umm, weeks to go (2012-02-06)

[EvilDragon]

I know you don't want to move from your standpoint right now, and just want to be angry and have confirmed that this is an unfair way to proceed.

An incorrect assumption. I just ask pointed questions, I'm not angry in the slightest. I'm am, however, laying out the POV from a customer, and am backing it up with sound reasoning and logic. I think this is an excellent project which is why I have waited in the wings for this long. What's brought me out vocally (or literally), is how it's been approached and worded. That's all.

Of course I know that every old preorderer would be happy to get it right away, and I also mentioned I'd love to deliver it to them right away in my first post.


I even explained the plan back in September, so it wasn't anything new or unexpected.


I myself am not satisfied how it ALL worked out with the old board manufacturer, but I can't change that, I can only try to continue the project based on the situation we had in August trying to find the best possible solution, and that's what I did.


You are not satisfied with it, but you never provided a proper solution yourself so far. One that would work out.


I'm open for anything, as I'd love to have a solution to deliver all units right away.

I asked several posts ago what the difference in cost is between what I paid (about 250GBP) and what the per-unit cost is, taking into consideration rent, time, costs, legal, etc. Once I know this, I can contribute to ensure I've paid a 'fair-price' for my device; I've no wish for my enjoyment to be funded by anyone else, even if based on their wish to remain 'fair' to everyone (which could jeopardise the entire project).

That's basically impossible to say.


When do you star calculating the costs. When we started the project in 2007?


Five people working fulltime on it, so that would be at least 1000 USD per person per month (which is a low wage for CEOs or hardware designers), so basically 5000 USD per month.


This would add up to 300,000 USD just for our own costs.


Add some more staff to handle shipping, etc. (like Jacquelyne, etc.) which would be another 120,000 USD.


Add office rent and stuff like tax counsellors, etc., which would be another 200,000 USD at least during that time period.


Shipping costs for moving the parts around as well as RMAs would be another 100,000 USD alltogether.


Then add the development and prototyping costs: Case (about 100,000 USD), PCB (prototyping runs, etc., about 150,000 USD as well).


Then add 250 EUR (about 328 USD) per unit that's being produced.Normally you have to expect a failure rate of about 5%, so with 4000 units, you could only expect to get 3800 working ones.


So, adding that up (I probably forgot something as well): 600 USD per PCB (about 457 EUR)

 

[kaiserpc]

Any comparison to the Nintendo 3DS is pointless;


- Nintendo make most of their money through 1st party software sales, and charging 3rd party devs a premium to sell 3DS games. Pandora have to make their money through hardware sales as they don't sell any software.


- Nintendo hardware is never cutting edge (unlike Xbox, PSX)


- Nintendo are buying millions of components and so can get huge discounts on all their processes (buying, manufacturing etc)

 

[jkt]

[...] with hairsplitting goggles put on preorders don't have a right for 512MB pandoras. They have to wait until another 256MB user went for upgrade to 512MB and will get the 256MB pandora then.

So the original contract - for a new device - is now a contract for a second hand unit (or 'new' unit with second hand parts), solely because the old parts are no longer manufactured?


Interesting logic. It wouldn't stand up in court.

 

[Galaxis]

The only other solution we had back in August 2011 was to quit the whole thing so the original customers would've lost the money and would never get a Pandora.


Do you really think this would've been the proper way?

From a business perspective? Yes, that would have been the correct thing to do.

Uh - from a business perspective, this project should never even have started. The whole point of this thing is that it defies pure business rationale, as no one would have taken the risk to try to build such a product. So introducing a "business perspective" now is just hypocrisy.


From my point of view, the deal is - and has always been - that the risk of failure is distributed between preorderers and the people who organize the production. (Where "distributed" is relative, as preorderers lose a couple hundred euros, while Craig and ED would be plain bankrupt personally. A point at which we would have been a year ago already, if ED hadn't kept pushing on.)

 

[moxie]

The only other solution we had back in August 2011 was to quit the whole thing so the original customers would've lost the money and would never get a Pandora.


Do you really think this would've been the proper way?

From a business perspective? Yes, that would have been the correct thing to do.

That's why i'm happy that the Pandora is not a business project.

Exactly my point.


And pardon me if I'm senile, but are not the New Pandoras actually at 4 times the memory that was spec:ed at order time? I seem to remember that some kind of memory, at least, was doubled around the time of the paypal disturbance. Or possibly NAND space.

 

[Neelix]

To read that if I'd saved my money and placed an order *now*, I'd get my machine quicker (of which the logical extension is that I (and all the early 'pre-orders') *financed* the newbies getting their machines quicker!), is a kick in the teeth.

Also, you didn't give me a reply to one crucial question I had, that probably makes the full discussion worthless:


The only other solution we had back in August 2011 was to quit the whole thing so the original customers would've lost the money and would never get a Pandora.


Do you really think this would've been the proper way?

From a business perspective? Yes, that would have been the correct thing to do.

And this would have been less of a 'kick in the teeth' to the original pre-order customers how exactly?


If you really would have preferred it that way you could always cancel your order and request not to get a refund...


- Neelix

 

[moxie]

[...] with hairsplitting goggles put on preorders don't have a right for 512MB pandoras. They have to wait until another 256MB user went for upgrade to 512MB and will get the 256MB pandora then.

So the original contract - for a new device - is now a contract for a second hand unit (or 'new' unit with second hand parts), solely because the old parts are no longer manufactured?


Interesting logic. It wouldn't stand up in court.

Are you being willfully silly now? He pointed out that if we were to bring it to detailed points, you did actually order a pandora with half (or, possibly, if my memory is correct, a fourth) of the memory it will have when you get it. That is, when splitting hairs. As in being silly. The point of being ridiculously detailed is not to make an argument to stand up in court.

 

[T.T.]

[...] with hairsplitting goggles put on preorders don't have a right for 512MB pandoras. They have to wait until another 256MB user went for upgrade to 512MB and will get the 256MB pandora then.

So the original contract - for a new device - is now a contract for a second hand unit (or 'new' unit with second hand parts), solely because the old parts are no longer manufactured?


Interesting logic. It wouldn't stand up in court.

no, you interpreted that wrong. you can get a second hand unit for a reduced price. if you preordered and don't change anything, you will get a NEW device, with NEW parts.


edit: ninja'd by Moxie

 

[konqithedragon]

That's what I want right there, a "blue/green/red/whatever stamp of a dragon", I DEMAND a girl dragon, ED pay no attention just keep doing you're thing, I'm bored sitting in work reading this and people keep looking at me 'cos I'm laughing out loud, thank god I only have to go into work on Monday's

that will be identical to the male dragon except it will have a bow in its hair and eyelashes.

 

[EvilDragon]

From a business perspective? Yes, that would have been the correct thing to do.

Ooookay... so you're happy to not get your unit and your Pandora?


I'm fine with that as well

 

[jkt]

If go by the time that nintendo first started working on the 3ds, you would have waited 8 years. they started working on it right after the release of the fat DS.


besides to play homebrew on that 3ds you would have to mod/hack it, the pandora is open.


and let's see that 3ds get 14+ hours of battery life

How long from when they announced it *for sale* and it getting into the hands of the consumer (if you're comparing like-for-like)?


Maybe the 3DS does have bad battery life, but the difference between the two devices is that I have a 3DS - like, in my hands, able to play it - while the Pandora seems still a pipe dream away.


There's a relevant saying: 'A bird in the hand...'

 

[EvilDragon]

EvilDragon,


Will you be willing to sell the new board alone for a self-upgrade? If so how much for the new board alone?


I wouldn't mind 'upgrading' but I don't want to be without my Pandora.

Yes, that would also be fine with me.


Do you want to send back your old PCB to me, or do you want to keep it?

 

[WizardStan]

And pardon me if I'm senile, but are not the New Pandoras™ actually at 4 times the memory that was spec:ed at order time? I seem to remember that some kind of memory, at least, was doubled around the time of the paypal disturbance. Or possibly NAND space.

Yes, the original spec called for 128MB of RAM. This was upgraded to 256MB I think 5 or 6 months after the initial pre-order as "apology" for the delay. We've now had another doubling.

 

[jkt]

Are you being willfully silly now? He pointed out that if we were to bring it to detailed points, you did actually order a pandora with half (or, possibly, if my memory is correct, a fourth) of the memory it will have when you get it. That is, when splitting hairs. As in being silly. The point of being ridiculously detailed is not to make an argument to stand up in court.

Keep to the original spec, that's fine with me. But don't punish customers because you screwed up.


And still, three times, I've asked for the cost difference between what I paid (250 GBP) and what it's now really costing, but nothing's been forthcoming. You have a customer here (me) who is happily prepared to pay what the device is actually costing, but the information isn't being provided. I think we have another contender for the 'bad business decisions' list, above.


Edit: missed the calculations, above...

 

[T.T.]

Are you being willfully silly now? He pointed out that if we were to bring it to detailed points, you did actually order a pandora with half (or, possibly, if my memory is correct, a fourth) of the memory it will have when you get it. That is, when splitting hairs. As in being silly. The point of being ridiculously detailed is not to make an argument to stand up in court.

Keep to the original spec, that's fine with me. But don't punish customers because you screwed up.


And still, three times, I've asked for the cost difference between what I paid (250 GBP) and what it's now really costing, but nothing's been forthcoming. You have a customer here (me) who is happily prepared to pay what the device is actually costing, but the information isn't being provided. I think we have another contender for the 'bad business decisions' list, above.

ED said that price

So my idea is this:


Anyone CAN upgrade to move up the queue, but I want to let the user decide how much this is worth for him.


I need to set a minimum amount (maybe 75 - 100 EUR?), but if someone really wants to support what we're doing and likes the Pandora, he can pay more and therefore help deliver the units faster to old preorders as well.

 

[jkt]

And still, three times, I've asked for the cost difference between what I paid (250 GBP) and what it's now really costing, but nothing's been forthcoming. You have a customer here (me) who is happily prepared to pay what the device is actually costing, but the information isn't being provided. I think we have another contender for the 'bad business decisions' list, above.

And what about my calculation a few posts above?


If you ignore my reply, I can't help you with waiting for it

Ok, my bad on that - the thread is moving so fast I missed the response


So 120 GBP difference? (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=457+EUR+in+GBP)

 

[double7]

So the original contract - for a new device - is now a contract for a second hand unit (or 'new' unit with second hand parts), solely because the old parts are no longer manufactured?


Interesting logic. It wouldn't stand up in court.

It would. You don't know the age of the parts in your gadgets. Manufacturers use recycled materials since long ago. Your car was a milk carton before. Your Newspaper is recycled paper and not new. I had to open a new bought cell phone after 3 years due to case replacement (fell down and broke), i found fancy wires on the board and a hand written note "bad rep" on one of the chips.


New is not completely unused, new is new warranty time starting with the deal.


But we are hairsplitting now. As far as i know ED will deliver updated hardware to all preorders.

 

[F_Slim]

I know you don't want to move from your standpoint right now, and just want to be angry and have confirmed that this is an unfair way to proceed.

An incorrect assumption. I just ask pointed questions, I'm not angry in the slightest. I'm am, however, laying out the POV from a customer, and am backing it up with sound reasoning and logic. I think this is an excellent project which is why I have waited in the wings for this long. What's brought me out vocally (or literally), is how it's been approached and worded. That's all.

Sorry then, I guess it just came across the wrong way then


The problem with arguing as a normal customer is, though, that you are not a normal customer of a normal company here. It's more like a bunch of slightly crazy hobby-ists without any experience trying to get a device that only few people would want to have into mass production, with the help of an even bigger bunch of probably equaly crazy people who believe in the idea, helping to keep it all alive ... try to see it that way, and it should help to put things into the right perspective I guess.

 

[gadgetoid]

The problem with arguing as a normal customer is, though, that you are not a normal customer of a normal company here.

True though this may be, there are probably a fair few people who pre-ordered and knew very little of the history behind the Pandora. They could have been under the illusion that this was a normal, straightforward project. Those of us in the know, however, could plainly see it was going to be a rollercoaster... although nobody foresaw to just how much of an extent.


I implore everyone who is still hanging in there to keep it up, the Pandora is only going to get better... and you're not going to get stuff like Qemu until the end of the Rebirth competition (and of March?) anyway. The Pandora is very clearly getting better, not worse, the longer you wait.

 

[jorlinn]

OK, let's keep things simple:


What I'd like to know is when the last (1st, 2nd Preorder) Pandora is scheduled to be *delivered* (Not produced, mind you, that's all virtual from a customer POV until the customer actually has the thing delivered to his/ her doorstep).


If the last one of the preorders has been delivered, I will definitely be part of that set. I might even be pleasantly surprised if it has been delivered sooner than that because I was not the last one who ordered.