2 Months..... umm, weeks to go (2012-02-06)


but if Foxconn would go down apple product prices would skyrocket, as it would take months before another contract manufacturer continue production.

Bad example. Worth noting at this point that when all the HDD prices were in flux after the Thailand flooding issues that the price of Apple products remained constant, while (seemingly) all other manufacturers increased prices. Indeed, on dabs.com, prices of drives were changing by the minute...

So we are to be punished for that lack of foresight and planning?
No, you are punished because you took the risk, to give money to some guys you didn't really knew, and that had no expertise and what they were trying to accomplish

I'd like to recommend at this point that ED does not use you for PR or any kind of advertising for the product ;)
 
How many bad management decisions have you seen from me or my company (OpenPandora GmbH) so far and what would you have made better?

* Totally reliant on a single manufacturer for the boards.


* Upsetting the original customers of your product, before it's even in their hands


* Pricing the unit at below cost, when you're not in a position to fund a 'loss-leader'


That's just from reading the boards today.


I've already commented on how I'd resolve the last two. For the first, I'd probably have looked at VC in order to ensure viability of the board production.


Okay first off OpenPandora GmbH is ED's shop, not Craig's shop were most of decisions were made prior. ED took over when it was decided to move production to Germany at the end of last year.


Also a Single provider of boards should of been fine for a small batch of 4000 orders and Circuit Co should of been able to produce that in a small amount of time.. However they kept lying saying that the rest were coming shortly, when in fact they were not.


The pricing was fine when they first started this adventure.. but things change..


This has all been explained many times before.
 
How many bad management decisions have you seen from me or my company (OpenPandora GmbH) so far and what would you have made better?
* Totally reliant on a single manufacturer for the boards.

That's normal for every product, because, as stated above, otherwise it costs time and money.


Programming the machines, making the stencil, preparing the prototypes, etc. all trigger one-time costs of about 5000 - 10,000 EUR with such a complicated product.


They also give you a price reduction for mass ordering - so while you pay maybe 20 EUR per PCB if you produce 4000 it goes up to 40 - 50 EUR per PCB if you produce only 1000 at that company.


So split up 4000 orders to 4 different companies, you pay an additional:


* about 30,000 EUR for higher one-time-costs


* about 20 EUR per PCB more because you only order 1000 PCBs at once.


This leads to additional costs of 110,000 EUR, or 27,5 EUR per unit.


Doesn't make sense.


Usually, a proper company similar produces the unit.

* Upsetting the original customers of your product, before it's even in their hands

Only a few ones are upset. With 4000 customers, it's nigh impossible to find a solution that will suit everyone.


However, the other solution would've been to quit the whole thing so the original customers would've lost the money and would never get a Pandora.


Do you really think this would've been the proper way?

* Pricing the unit at below cost, when you're not in a position to fund a 'loss-leader'

Well, that was not me or my company that priced the unit, it was actually Craigs, but he didn't price it below costs.


The costs were covered, with the quotations the companies gave us.


And if they would've properly manufactured it and not killed 1000 PCBs, the price would've been fine.


You ALWAYS include a certain failure rate in a calculation. And a typical failure rate for such PCB production is 3 - 5%, sometimes up to 8%.


We got over 25% from the old company right now. NO one would include that in their calculation!
 
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So, if you want to buy a car from your local dealer for 10,000 USD, you add another 30,000 USD just to be sure you can get a new one in case the car won't work?


The only reason people usually go to different companies for a production is if the current one can't deliver as many as you need.
No, but if I go to a local car dealer and give them the cash up front for a 'pre-order', I don't expect to wait 3 years to find out I've been screwed in favour of people who have shinier (more recent) money.

See? And we didn't expect the company in Texas to need over a year to produce 4000 PCBs, manage to produce 1000 non-working ones while in the same time they are producing PCBs for other customers, instead of trying to fulfill their duty and finish and fix our PCBs.


It's the same thing.


So your solution was to use different companies for the production from the very beginning and expect a very high failure rate.


Putting this in analogy with your car dealer, you should go to various car dealers straight ahead to buy multiple cars so you have at least one working.
 
* Totally reliant on a single manufacturer for the boards.


* Upsetting the original customers of your product, before it's even in their hands


* Pricing the unit at below cost, when you're not in a position to fund a 'loss-leader'
ED asked what bad decisions his company had made, not the ones that Craig's company had made.


Besides which:


As has been mentioned several times, most companies are reliant on single manufacturers for many of their parts, and those are large companies that could afford to split their production if they wanted to. OPT was already requesting a tiny run, splitting it further would have greatly increased the cost. If they had gone with a questionable company there would be merit to your argument, but they didn't: they selected a 1st world production facility that came recommended to them for similar work they'd done in the past. Choosing CC was not a calculated risk, it should have been no risk. Getting the cases made in China was a risk. Sending freight by boat instead of plane is a risk. Expecting a well known and profitable company in the United States to not tell absolute fabrications for months is not a risk.


Second, not everyone is getting upset. Some of us actually pay attention to what is happening and are sympathetic to the situation.


Finally, they didn't price the unit below cost, they priced it at cost plus a little profit, and if they had been able to keep shipping when the first one went out 2.5 years ago they wouldn't have lost any money on those sales. It is storage fees, changing market, and generally increased cost of doing business that has caused the price to increase.
 
I'd like to make a serious yet minor suggestion..


for every last remaining 'classic pre-order' that's not an upgrade there be some kind of stamp on it...


maybe a


blue/green/red/whatever stamp of a dragon..


just to make it a little bit more special without great cost.

Now that's a silly yet great idea. It would keep "l33t" geeks like us satisfied (I would be happy) and reinforce our idea of having something unique.


+1
 
Bad example. Worth noting at this point that when all the HDD prices were in flux after the Thailand flooding issues that the price of Apple products remained constant, while (seemingly) all other manufacturers increased prices. Indeed, on dabs.com, prices of drives were changing by the minute...
Maybe, but your comparison isn't very well made either. First HDD prices are surely just a small factor in the price calculation, and isn't a big hit regarding the whole production process of a apple product either, for the pandora it is both (the main pcb). Who knows what apple tought a that time maybe they already had enough HDDs at that point in time and calculated that they can rise prices later if the shortcoming would not end soon. Or they decided that they will reduce their margin per sold product a little bit to stay competitive. It doesn't really matter as foxconn is their main manufacturer - no foxconn, no production, warehouses getting empty, etc...

I'd like to recommend at this point that ED does not use you for PR or any kind of advertising for the product
wink.png
good idea!


But thats the truth, I knew this when I gave ED the money, and it did work out for me, and it will for everyone else, I trust ED!
 
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...it is not exactly a truth that has been hidden at any time, either :D
 
we didn't expect the company in Texas to need over a year to produce 4000 PCBs, manage to produce 1000 non-working ones while in the same time they are producing PCBs for other customers, instead of trying to fulfill their duty and finish and fix our PCBs.


It's the same thing.

Lack of due-diligence, then.

So your solution was to use different companies for the production from the very beginning and expect a very high failure rate.


Putting this in analogy with your car dealer, you should go to various car dealers straight ahead to buy multiple cars so you have at least one working.

For something that's critical, yes, that's what I do. I want to have use of a car, so I either have two, or I have insurance to cover the costs incurred when (not it - when), the first fails (I went for the former).


I *need* a computer to do my work. It is critical for me. So I have two computers in case one fails.


I *need* an internet connection in order to do my work, so I have broadband and a backup 3G dongle.


If having PCB manufactured is critical for your business, then having a backup prepared would seem prudent.
 
No, but if I go to a local car dealer and give them the cash up front for a 'pre-order', I don't expect to wait 3 years to find out I've been screwed in favour of people who have shinier (more recent) money.
You don't expect such things but they happen: my parents ordered a new car, and due to their choice of color and motor they had to wait forever after the earthquake in Japan. Because several pieces and the color were actually produced their.


Several other cars (just different engine and/or color) were produced and delivered during that time. While my parents still had to use their old car for vacations and so on, thus lowering its resell-value and actually lost money that way. And there was no way to step back from the order, because that's how the contracts are!


Compared to that, the options are and were much better here: You can get out at any time and get all your money back. Or just wait a bit and get your Pandora, or pay more and get it sooner.


I know you don't want to move from your standpoint right now, and just want to be angry and have confirmed that this is an unfair way to proceed. Still the fact remains, that there is no alternative, unless you call loosing the money from your preorder and not getting a Pandora an alternative. (Changing the past is not an alternative by the way.)


I guess nobody really likes this, but unless somebody actually comes up with a better idea (I mean one that actually works out), that's just how it is. (And it was known since several months that this is the way it's going to happen).
 
we didn't expect the company in Texas to need over a year to produce 4000 PCBs, manage to produce 1000 non-working ones while in the same time they are producing PCBs for other customers, instead of trying to fulfill their duty and finish and fix our PCBs.


It's the same thing.

Lack of due-diligence, then.

The company is ISO certified. It was producing the BeagleBoard at that time, so they should have been fine.


It was one of the few companies that made the PoP at that time with such a small order.

So your solution was to use different companies for the production from the very beginning and expect a very high failure rate.


Putting this in analogy with your car dealer, you should go to various car dealers straight ahead to buy multiple cars so you have at least one working.
For something that's critical, yes, that's what I do. I want to have use of a car, so I either have two, or I have insurance to cover the costs incurred when (not it - when), the first fails (I went for the former).


I *need* a computer to do my work. It is critical for me. So I have two computers in case one fails.


I *need* an internet connection in order to do my work, so I have broadband and a backup 3G dongle.


If having PCB manufactured is critical for your business, then having a backup prepared would seem prudent.

Well, a computer and internet dongle doesn't really count, as that is peanuts compared to the prices you have here.


So you actually buy two cars for 50,000 USD just to be sure you got on in case one breaks (as that amount of money more likely is what we're talking about here, not just a simple computer or internet connection).


I'd love to see that...


Also, you didn't give me a reply to one crucial question I had, that probably makes the full discussion worthless:


The only other solution we had back in August 2011 was to quit the whole thing so the original customers would've lost the money and would never get a Pandora.


Do you really think this would've been the proper way?
 
Maybe it's slower, but it has pretty awesome 3D, some excellent games and (most importantly), it was in my hand within months of announcement, and on the day of release. Can I put a price on that? Yeah, 179 GBP, last April.

You're are now saying your own opinion, which is not everyone's opinion...


Nintendo is big company, so they can order big amounts of parts (lower price) and then they can sell 3DS for lower prize (because low price components).

jkt said:
Because you've tried comparing the 'investment' with that I'd get at a bank when I commented that I had many uses for 250 GBP over the past three years.

And all that time you could used those 250 GBP, you had chance to get refund, but you didn't so you can only blame yourself, not ED.

* Totally reliant on a single manufacturer for the boards.

As long as Pandora is not big corporation with lot's of money, there is no other option.


And Example : Manufacturer X can sell you 10000 components with 1000EUR.


If we order from Manufacturer X and Manufacturer Y 5000 components, it would cost more than 1000EUR.


Why you ask? Because in component market, more you buy, cheaper the single component gets.


Now we can get more components cheaper, which means we can safe money and make more Pandoras.


If small company uses 2 different manufacturers, prizes of components are higher and so rises the prize of product.

But I still don't see a "profit" on my end. Like I said - 3 years

Time doesn't cost you money, so I say it's profit.


Edit : Damn it ED, you are faster ^_^
 
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I'd like to make a serious yet minor suggestion..


for every last remaining 'classic pre-order' that's not an upgrade there be some kind of stamp on it...


maybe a


blue/green/red/whatever stamp of a dragon..


just to make it a little bit more special without great cost.

Now that's a silly yet great idea. It would keep "l33t" geeks like us satisfied (I would be happy) and reinforce our idea of having something unique.


+1

at least 1 person likes the idea :p
 
I know you don't want to move from your standpoint right now, and just want to be angry and have confirmed that this is an unfair way to proceed.

An incorrect assumption. I just ask pointed questions, I'm not angry in the slightest. I'm am, however, laying out the POV from a customer, and am backing it up with sound reasoning and logic. I think this is an excellent project which is why I have waited in the wings for this long. What's brought me out vocally (or literally), is how it's been approached and worded. That's all.


I asked several posts ago what the difference in cost is between what I paid (about 250GBP) and what the per-unit cost is, taking into consideration rent, time, costs, legal, etc. Once I know this, I can contribute to ensure I've paid a 'fair-price' for my device; I've no wish for my enjoyment to be funded by anyone else, even if based on their wish to remain 'fair' to everyone (which could jeopardise the entire project).


I hope this clarifies things on that front.
 
So you actually buy two cars for 50,000 USD just to be sure you got on in case one breaks (as that amount of money more likely is what we're talking about here, not just a simple computer or internet connection).


I'd love to see that...

If it's a *per-person* cost of 50k, I'd get insurance for that possibility. But it's not: you've yourself said it would be a 27.50 euro increase per-board. I'd swallow that if it provided a more stable company, better PR, and longevity (oh, and we do have two cars, as do a lot of households).

Also, you didn't give me a reply to one crucial question I had, that probably makes the full discussion worthless:


The only other solution we had back in August 2011 was to quit the whole thing so the original customers would've lost the money and would never get a Pandora.


Do you really think this would've been the proper way?

From a business perspective? Yes, that would have been the correct thing to do.
 
You're right, no bank would give me that kind of profit on that investment over that time period. But for the comparison to be valid, if I cancel my order, you'll need to refund 450 EUR to my account. Will you do that? If so, please cancel my order. If not, change the reasoning, it's invalid.

It is valid, because no bank would give you the full interest if you cancel the contract before it's duration ends.


A preorder contract ends with pandora for the money - no pandora it's just the money back. It never was an interest contract, with hairsplitting goggles put on preorders don't have a right for 512MB pandoras. They have to wait until another 256MB user went for upgrade to 512MB and will get the 256MB pandora then.


I was 20 to 30 Pandoras away from my preorder delivery last year. I know about being pissed off due to waiting time. Since ED took over control of the world production things are going better. We could have trouble again, i'm surprised nobody mentioned that the 512MB RAM of the new Pandoras will be useless. If "at the moment" is a valid argument that the things will be better some day, then that's valid for the pandora production too. The course is set and i don't see any icebergs ahead.


(Funny, the german Eisberg found it's way into english instead of ice mountain.)
 
So you actually buy two cars for 50,000 USD just to be sure you got on in case one breaks
If it's a *per-person* cost of 50k, I'd get insurance for that possibility.
Insurance means: Others have to pay for it.


For the pandora customers that means: We have to pay for one thing two times.


That is exactly what is happening now. The difference to your insurance way is that you (all) have to pay twice at first. Usually you don't get back the insurance money if everything went fine.

The only other solution we had back in August 2011 was to quit the whole thing so the original customers would've lost the money and would never get a Pandora.


Do you really think this would've been the proper way?

From a business perspective? Yes, that would have been the correct thing to do.
That's why i'm happy that the Pandora is not (yet) a business project.
 
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The 3DS is not higher spec'd by the way. It's way slower.

Maybe it's slower, but it has pretty awesome 3D, some excellent games and (most importantly), it was in my hand within months of announcement, and on the day of release. Can I put a price on that? Yeah, 179 GBP, last April.

If go by the time that nintendo first started working on the 3ds, you would have waited 8 years. they started working on it right after the release of the fat DS.


besides to play homebrew on that 3ds you would have to mod/hack it, the pandora is open.


and let's see that 3ds get 14+ hours of battery life
 
EvilDragon,


Will you be willing to sell the new board alone for a self-upgrade? If so how much for the new board alone?


I wouldn't mind 'upgrading' but I don't want to be without my Pandora.
 
That's what I want right there, a "blue/green/red/whatever stamp of a dragon", I DEMAND a girl dragon, ED pay no attention just keep doing you're thing, I'm bored sitting in work reading this and people keep looking at me 'cos I'm laughing out loud, thank god I only have to go into work on Monday's
 
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