plopperz
Huh?
We have the MK0 (and I guess MK0.1) Pandoras for that reason.
What Do You Think The Pandora Should Feature First?
- Thread starter EvilDragon
- Start date
Prophet
God I'm old.
I voted emulators cuz hey, I'm an emulation nut from way back. 
But whatever the devs feel makes sense is fine, I'm not in a rush. A nice GUI is... nice. I plan to also buy a netbook soon (an MSI Wind perhaps), so I guess that's why I mainly see Pandora as a pocket emulation computer, even tho it will be capable of much more than that.
But whatever the devs feel makes sense is fine, I'm not in a rush. A nice GUI is... nice. I plan to also buy a netbook soon (an MSI Wind perhaps), so I guess that's why I mainly see Pandora as a pocket emulation computer, even tho it will be capable of much more than that.
Prophet
God I'm old.
Pickle said:
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God Ginrai
Godmaster
Prophet said:
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Prophet
God I'm old.
I think the site will survive the cost of bandwidth for my daring to post twice in a row. And IIRC, the board will automatically append a new post to your last post, but I guess I missed the time frame for that.God Ginrai said:
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Choosing between either a great GUI or great emulators is quite a hard call. With a lousy GUI but good emulators people might look at the pandora and say "What a great games machine but why does it have a keyboard....I won't buy one it plays games great but it's useless for applications". But if it has a good GUI and lousy emulators then the opposite might be true; "It's great for going online and getting your emails and typing a letter to your bank manager, but where are the games? I won't be buying one".
This potentially might expose one problem of where the pandora should be targeted. Whoever is selling it needs to make sure people know that it is both for games *and* applications. Otherwise it won't sell very well; the gamers will either stick with their nintendos or the apps people will stick with their eee PC's or equivilent.
So probably a GUI and emulators are both important. Emulators are great but they aren't much use at moving files around; subsequently a good GUI might be fast and easy to use but if it has no programs to run on it, it won't be very intresting.
Just maybe one way 'round the problem might be to have not one but two GUIs (which could be selected between or installed); a full blown GUI for the apps people or for gamers a more GP2X style menu system.
ljones
This potentially might expose one problem of where the pandora should be targeted. Whoever is selling it needs to make sure people know that it is both for games *and* applications. Otherwise it won't sell very well; the gamers will either stick with their nintendos or the apps people will stick with their eee PC's or equivilent.
So probably a GUI and emulators are both important. Emulators are great but they aren't much use at moving files around; subsequently a good GUI might be fast and easy to use but if it has no programs to run on it, it won't be very intresting.
Just maybe one way 'round the problem might be to have not one but two GUIs (which could be selected between or installed); a full blown GUI for the apps people or for gamers a more GP2X style menu system.
ljones
Vimacs
Don't be evil!
I voted for the gui,
even thou i didn't read most of the thread first.
Let me explain myself:
The question doesn't relay seem to be graphical user interface or applications,
but if the next batch of dev units should go to kernel hackers/firmware devs or emulator authors.
My perception on this is that even the best application can never "perform" as good as it could as long as the firmware isn't stable yet,
and with stable i mean a solid well defined function set, interface, packaging scheme, multitasking(?) and windowmaneger handling(or framebuffer or whatever).
Thats why i believe that the system should be developed in the same "layer" order as apps will rely on each other,
hw, kernel, deamons, graphics subsystem/xserver, window manager/gui and lastly the actual applications. I dont want to have applications which don't "fit into" the system properly or even conflict with newer firmware releases etc..
We have seen what uncertain firmware/hw development can do at the gp32/gp2x and even other much bigger systems like for example the ps3 with tons stuff tacked on later.
So pleas make sure that AT LEAST a STABLE framework and firmware definition exists before favoring application devs over firmware hackers.
So my opinion is that dev units should go to those guis first, of course "left over" units can go to core application developers as well as there are many things that can already be done which are quite independent of the rest, those things can mostly also be done on different hardware thou.
even thou i didn't read most of the thread first.
Let me explain myself:
The question doesn't relay seem to be graphical user interface or applications,
but if the next batch of dev units should go to kernel hackers/firmware devs or emulator authors.
My perception on this is that even the best application can never "perform" as good as it could as long as the firmware isn't stable yet,
and with stable i mean a solid well defined function set, interface, packaging scheme, multitasking(?) and windowmaneger handling(or framebuffer or whatever).
Thats why i believe that the system should be developed in the same "layer" order as apps will rely on each other,
hw, kernel, deamons, graphics subsystem/xserver, window manager/gui and lastly the actual applications. I dont want to have applications which don't "fit into" the system properly or even conflict with newer firmware releases etc..
We have seen what uncertain firmware/hw development can do at the gp32/gp2x and even other much bigger systems like for example the ps3 with tons stuff tacked on later.
So pleas make sure that AT LEAST a STABLE framework and firmware definition exists before favoring application devs over firmware hackers.
So my opinion is that dev units should go to those guis first, of course "left over" units can go to core application developers as well as there are many things that can already be done which are quite independent of the rest, those things can mostly also be done on different hardware thou.
openthebox
Member
$330 ???!!!
That is what reviewers, readers of reviews, and potential customers who do not read this forum will scream about.
"I'm paying $330 for this flashy GUI that do emulation slightly better than my PSP/DS/GP2X ?"
Which one of the following sounds better in a review?
(1) The Pandora has beautiful frontend with ease of navigation.
The emulation runs fine in general and do look a little bit better than the current crop of handhelds (PSP/DS/GP2X).
For $330, I was expecting initial release of emulators to do more than this though.
Since this is an open development kit, emulators should improve, but by how much remains to be seen.
N64 emulation maybe possible, but judging by the initial realease of emulators, it's got a long way to go.
If you got to have the latest gadget and money is no issue, buy it for it's potential.
If you are on a shoestring budget, wait a while and see how the development scene progresses
before you lay down you hard earn money.
(2) The Pandora has a very basic no-thrill frontend.
Navigation is adequate but do reminds me of those MP3 players coming out of China.
I expected a little more pizzaz, so hopefully future updates will remedy this.
**** Update **** The development team has promised a better Frontend for the next Firmware!!!
Emulation is spectacular!!!
SNES, PSX, and GBA emulation ran at FULL SPEED with no frame drops!!!
At $330, it is more expensive than PS2 and the DS, but look at the emulation difference.
The Pandora website mentions that N64 is possible, by looking at what we have right now, I have faith that it will happen.
Aside from the boring GUI, the Pandora has shown me what this little beast can do at the get go.
Imagine what else can be done.
If you want to get your hands on one of these, you better hurry.
There will only be 3000 units produced for it's initial launch, they will be gone quick.
For my sake, I don't care, because I'm getting one regardless.
For the Pandora scene, we need to wow them (reviewers and readers) with the emulators.
Majority of the people WILL consider this an emulation machine first and everything else is just that.
Your Average Joe is not going to lay out $330 for potentials, at least not at the get go.
That is what reviewers, readers of reviews, and potential customers who do not read this forum will scream about.
"I'm paying $330 for this flashy GUI that do emulation slightly better than my PSP/DS/GP2X ?"
Which one of the following sounds better in a review?
(1) The Pandora has beautiful frontend with ease of navigation.
The emulation runs fine in general and do look a little bit better than the current crop of handhelds (PSP/DS/GP2X).
For $330, I was expecting initial release of emulators to do more than this though.
Since this is an open development kit, emulators should improve, but by how much remains to be seen.
N64 emulation maybe possible, but judging by the initial realease of emulators, it's got a long way to go.
If you got to have the latest gadget and money is no issue, buy it for it's potential.
If you are on a shoestring budget, wait a while and see how the development scene progresses
before you lay down you hard earn money.
(2) The Pandora has a very basic no-thrill frontend.
Navigation is adequate but do reminds me of those MP3 players coming out of China.
I expected a little more pizzaz, so hopefully future updates will remedy this.
**** Update **** The development team has promised a better Frontend for the next Firmware!!!
Emulation is spectacular!!!
SNES, PSX, and GBA emulation ran at FULL SPEED with no frame drops!!!
At $330, it is more expensive than PS2 and the DS, but look at the emulation difference.
The Pandora website mentions that N64 is possible, by looking at what we have right now, I have faith that it will happen.
Aside from the boring GUI, the Pandora has shown me what this little beast can do at the get go.
Imagine what else can be done.
If you want to get your hands on one of these, you better hurry.
There will only be 3000 units produced for it's initial launch, they will be gone quick.
For my sake, I don't care, because I'm getting one regardless.
For the Pandora scene, we need to wow them (reviewers and readers) with the emulators.
Majority of the people WILL consider this an emulation machine first and everything else is just that.
Your Average Joe is not going to lay out $330 for potentials, at least not at the get go.
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God Ginrai
Godmaster
Prophet said:
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One thing I guess most people here can agree on is that there's a *lot* of work to do. And if - say for sake of argument - the release of the pandora (post 3000 units) was to be timed for the xmas period that means there is around 5 months left to produce something workable. Plus depending on where it is being targeted at advertising too. Will it be possible to make lots of good software in 5 months?
IHMO though it is worth looking to (recent) history for examples. Think about (say) the Enterprise 64 and 128 - they were technically better than the popular systems of their day such as the C64 and ZX Spectrum, but they did appallingly badly. The reason? Great hardware but nothing to run on them. And the C16 and Plus/4 were the victims of confused positioning and advertising. Is it supposed to be above or below the C64? Which one? Oh what the heck, a C64 it is for me! Don't want either of these to happen to the pandora.
ljones
IHMO though it is worth looking to (recent) history for examples. Think about (say) the Enterprise 64 and 128 - they were technically better than the popular systems of their day such as the C64 and ZX Spectrum, but they did appallingly badly. The reason? Great hardware but nothing to run on them. And the C16 and Plus/4 were the victims of confused positioning and advertising. Is it supposed to be above or below the C64? Which one? Oh what the heck, a C64 it is for me! Don't want either of these to happen to the pandora.
ljones
Pickle
Mega GP Mania
Not if there isnt a well defined toolchain, firmware, kernel, libraries.ljones said:
I hope craigix and ED are still watching, the feedback just kind of stopped. There are a lot of questions and speculation going on in this thread. It's has me a bit worried.
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God Ginrai
Godmaster
Agreed.Pickle said:
-God Ginrai
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I think part of the problem with the "is it part of the firmware?" question is that the Pandora doesn't really have a clear definition between firmware and software, as the Pandora sort of straddles the line between consumer electronic device and full computer. AFAIK, personal computers aren't generally considered to have firmware (except maybe the BIOS). Then do we take firmware to be everything stored on the NAND? If so, then (technically), I'd think this GUI would count as part of the firmware. Or is it just the core OS files? Kernel, libraries, that sort of thing. But the user can compile his own kernel and preumably make other changes, so isn't that kind of software? Firmware was easily defined with the gp2x, it included the kernel, basic utilities, and GUI, all downloaded in a bundle. The Pandora seems a bit more difficult to define in that regard.
gaterooze
Coltrane Sundia
IIRC a while back, Craigix tried to port the current Pandora GUI to PC and/or GP2X so that we could have a peek -- but it didn't work out.
God Ginrai
Godmaster
I define Firmware as the OS and libraries. The GUI and basic apps are seperate in name, but come packaged with the firmware, IMHO.BigTruck said:
-God Ginrai
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Game_over
Game Developer
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2006
- Messages
- 645
I would just say to that, just post a pic or something in your next blog entry. Looking from both sides of this topic, the question is not written very well and it is causing some sort of confusion.
To does who are not aware of the absolute meaning of GUI; the GUI (Graphical User Interface) is a interactive graphical representation of a menu system (in most cases it sits on top of the file system). I agree with what he may be referring to aesthetic, as a pure file list for accessing files and programs is in many cases just as user friendly as an advanced GUI. Most have a search function so that evades that argument as well.
People apparently keep forgetting that this is an open source system, with the right base you it's actually easier and more likely to have a GUI at launch, then emulators. So the focus should remain on the emulates and there should be a base to where someone can create a theme or something until the official one comes.
There is no way they are talking about shifting focus away from the firmware, bios, OpenGL ES 2.0, etc as most of those are the very things essential to even having an emulator working in the first place, think about it.
The 3000 should be for the core audience who may want to actually do something with it anyways, they don't need no stinkin' pretty GUI. lol
To does who are not aware of the absolute meaning of GUI; the GUI (Graphical User Interface) is a interactive graphical representation of a menu system (in most cases it sits on top of the file system). I agree with what he may be referring to aesthetic, as a pure file list for accessing files and programs is in many cases just as user friendly as an advanced GUI. Most have a search function so that evades that argument as well.
People apparently keep forgetting that this is an open source system, with the right base you it's actually easier and more likely to have a GUI at launch, then emulators. So the focus should remain on the emulates and there should be a base to where someone can create a theme or something until the official one comes.
There is no way they are talking about shifting focus away from the firmware, bios, OpenGL ES 2.0, etc as most of those are the very things essential to even having an emulator working in the first place, think about it.
The 3000 should be for the core audience who may want to actually do something with it anyways, they don't need no stinkin' pretty GUI. lol
Tashi
Member
Please no delay only because of not finished firmwareProphet said:
The Firmware(OS/Gui) and Apps can be improved from time to time. But It would be nice to have to have some basic Apps runing(like Firefox, Mediaplayer).
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I took the poll as, you will have firmware aka the OS and libraries at launch no matter what. On top of that do you want the GUI and basic apps to improve on the base that will be there or do you want emulators with better performance and more plentiful. It was a choice of umpc vs games console at launch.
To be honest the result from this thread is "both". So either delay launch for this (please don't) or compromise till both are satisfactory level. No one expects it to be perfect at launch, we're all too eager to play with it and develop for it.
From a few throw away comments made by devs I cannot be bothered to find and quote I know it sounds like the gui/menu is working to a point of usability. Also we have had reports that emulators are performing well and emulators for older consoles shouldn't take too long either. So I think most would be pleased with just that on launch knowing more will come. And the first batch is small enough to not be a mainstream release so it couldn't harm to release it in that kind of state. If you're worried about the media/press and word of mouth and all that happens after launch then I would hold it back. I would also hold it back if it was a large quantity you was making and selling to a mainstream audience. So personally I would call it a beta release, the hardware is fine but not all the software is there yet for it to be ready for large scale consumption by members of the "ZOMG goldeneye! And it has a calculator! Does it get any better! Wow yes it does!" public.
To be honest the result from this thread is "both". So either delay launch for this (please don't) or compromise till both are satisfactory level. No one expects it to be perfect at launch, we're all too eager to play with it and develop for it.
From a few throw away comments made by devs I cannot be bothered to find and quote I know it sounds like the gui/menu is working to a point of usability. Also we have had reports that emulators are performing well and emulators for older consoles shouldn't take too long either. So I think most would be pleased with just that on launch knowing more will come. And the first batch is small enough to not be a mainstream release so it couldn't harm to release it in that kind of state. If you're worried about the media/press and word of mouth and all that happens after launch then I would hold it back. I would also hold it back if it was a large quantity you was making and selling to a mainstream audience. So personally I would call it a beta release, the hardware is fine but not all the software is there yet for it to be ready for large scale consumption by members of the "ZOMG goldeneye! And it has a calculator! Does it get any better! Wow yes it does!" public.
Tashi
Member
Its not necessary. At this stage of development the pandora has already a menu better than the GP2X. Like craigix wrote.
craigix said:
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