Unofficial Keyboard Layouts

[WizardStan]

In my opinion, any keyboard that is blocking the shift-enter combination is utterly useless

So disable it. You don't need a compose key, turn that functionality off.

 

[Caine]

So disable it. You don't need a compose key, turn that functionality off.

According to that argument keyboard layout is always irrelevant since you can remap stuff yourself.
Sure, if that combo would be blocked, then I will switch it off,

however the default layout should be as good as possible and shift+enter is a very common combination.

 

[WizardStan]

According to that argument keyboard layout is always irrelevant since you can remap stuff yourself.

No it doesn't. The compose key wasn't labelled. If you aren't using it you lose nothing by changing it.The default keyboard layout is important because they all get labels. Also you're likely to use all of the keys for their labelled purpose at some point in time. Changing a labelled key introduces the potential for problems.

however the default layout should be as good as possible and shift+enter is a very common combination

I think you're exaggerating how common it is. I can't remember ever encountering such a shortcut, and googling for it brings up very few hits. Powerpoint uses it for a "soft return", whatever that means.What were you using when you found the need to hit shift-enter, and why didn't you report it as a bug when you found it didn't work as you expected?

 

[God Ginrai]

however the default layout should be as good as possible and shift+enter is a very common combination

I think you're exaggerating how common it is. I can't remember ever encountering such a shortcut, and googling for it brings up very few hits. Powerpoint uses it for a "soft return", whatever that means.What were you using when you found the need to hit shift-enter, and why didn't you report it as a bug when you found it didn't work as you expected?

Shift-Enter is used in pretty much any application that uses enter for submit so that you can insert newlines.

-God Ginrai

 

[_wb_]

A compose key that is already a button combo itself is just not convenient. Remember that you already have to press two more keys after the compose key, and typically one of them is a Fn key. I have to press Shift-Enter Fn-S E just to get the ë I need to spell things like the name of my country (België), that is not exactly very convenient.

In my Pyra keyboard layout proposal, it would be Compose L2-S E (using the compose method) or  L1+L2+S E (using the dead key diacritic method) to get an ë, which is much better: shoulder buttons don't take any thumbs travel, so it's effectively only 3 (compose) or 2 (diacritic) keystrokes while on the Pandora it currently takes 4 (using L1 for shift).

 

[slaeshjag]

^ And if you're unfortunate to speak Finnish, ä seem to a forigner to be the most common vowel they use

 

[comradekingu]

Or, with an intl layout, its a letter of its own. ÆØÅ ÖÜÄ  etc all day.  It doesnt require re-learning anything, its fast, and its one key.

If you dont use an intl layout keyboard you can map other things there, like [ ]  or whatever you have the most use for.

 

[alanjf]

I think you're exaggerating how common it is. I can't remember ever encountering such a shortcut, and googling for it brings up very few hits. Powerpoint uses it for a "soft return", whatever that means.
What were you using when you found the need to hit shift-enter, and why didn't you report it as a bug when you found it didn't work as you expected?

There are many word processors that use shift + enter for a regular line break while using enter by itself for a paragraph break (to break from the current paragraph and begin a new one.)

It's used in many many chat and messaging programs to break to the next line where by itself sends the text. I've seen it used in email clients to save to drafts where as a solo stroke breaks to the next line as normal. Other clients I've seen use it as a faux paragraph break or vice versa where it emulates word processors.

I've seen other editors that use shift + enter for a carriage return (where it goes down to the next line but at the same column position it was previous) or programming orientated editors where it closes a block and positions the caret to begin another, which is sort of reminiscent of the word processor usage, but more programming specific that usually respects indentation, etc.

It's also normally a perfectly configurable combination in many other programs and games that let you customize their functions and controls. Therefore it seems like a rather bad idea to clobber this be default, especially when there exists an Fn key or the suggestions others have made.

 

[Saber]

Made a minor change or two to the layout.

Moved F11 adjacent to F12.

Moved Scroll Lock, Pause/Break, and Print Screen from Fn +  Face Button combos to the keyboard.

Compose Mode is now Left Shift + Enter only.

 

[alanjf]

Compose Mode is now Left Shift + Enter only.

I still don't understand why it needs to be tied with shift when Fn + enter could be easily used instead. Please see my last post for a several good examples of known and common shift + enter usages. Yes, your schema only uses one of the shift keys but I still feel that should be strongly advised against for a default configuration.

 

[Saber]

Compose Mode is now Left Shift + Enter only.

I still don't understand why it needs to be tied with shift when Fn + enter could be easily used instead. Please see my last post for a several good examples of known and common shift + enter usages. Yes, your schema only uses one of the shift keys but I still feel that should be strongly advised against for a default configuration.

Either Left Shift + Enter or Fn + Enter would work. I prefer the former since it's like it was on the Pandora is all.

Do you specifically have a need for Shift + Enter? What do you use it for yourself?

 

[_wb_]

Or, with an intl layout, its a letter of its own. ÆØÅ ÖÜÄ  etc all day.  It doesnt require re-learning anything, its fast, and its one key.

That only works if you only need three special letters, or at least at most three that are common. In Dutch, you don't need any special letter frequently, but you do need ä, ë, ï, ö, ü, á, é, í, ó, ú, à, è, ù, â, ê, ô, œ and ç every now and then, none of them much more commonly than the others. Having three dedicated extra letters does not solve much.

 

[Saber]

Decided to update the layout again today.

Moved Compose Mode to Fn + Spacebar; an effortless thumb slide combo to do on the Pandora.

Moved Context Menu key to Fn + m. We lose the degree symbol there. I don't think it will be missed by many. 

Hope this alleviates a few worries.

 

[_wb_]

I think it makes more sense to have the default Compose key on Meta/Fn/AltGr+RShift (not the shoulder button shift, but the right keyboard shift). That way we have a reason to put a "Compose" label on that key, and it becomes a sensible key to use as a dedicated Compose key -- power users don't need two shift keys on the keyboard itself, since L1 is more effective as shift anyway.

 

[WizardStan]

Shift-Enter is used in pretty much any application that uses enter for submit so that you can insert newlines.

Such as?

 

[WizardStan]

There are many word processors that use shift + enter for a regular line break while using enter by itself for a paragraph break (to break from the current paragraph and begin a new one.)

It's used in many many chat and messaging programs to break to the next line where by itself sends the text. I've seen it used in email clients to save to drafts where as a solo stroke breaks to the next line as normal. Other clients I've seen use it as a faux paragraph break or vice versa where it emulates word processors.

I've seen other editors that use shift + enter for a carriage return (where it goes down to the next line but at the same column position it was previous) or programming orientated editors where it closes a block and positions the caret to begin another, which is sort of reminiscent of the word processor usage, but more programming specific that usually respects indentation, etc.

It's also normally a perfectly configurable combination in many other programs and games that let you customize their functions and controls. Therefore it seems like a rather bad idea to clobber this be default, especially when there exists an Fn key or the suggestions others have made.

"on many editors" doesn't tell me a lot. I'm not asking hypotheticals, I'm curious for specific applications. Which ones on the Pandora have you used that caused problems and why didn't you report it as a bug when it didn't work?

 

[Saber]

I think it makes more sense to have the default Compose key on Meta/Fn/AltGr+RShift (not the shoulder button shift, but the right keyboard shift). That way we have a reason to put a "Compose" label on that key, and it becomes a sensible key to use as a dedicated Compose key -- power users don't need two shift keys on the keyboard itself, since L1 is more effective as shift anyway.

If the two Right Shift keys, one on the shoulder and the other on the keyboard part, have different scancodes, then Fn + Right Keyboard Shift for Compose Mode does make sense. I am reluctant though to have Fn + combos on Shift keys. That includes Caps Lock also. I'd prefer all three Shifts were Shift keys only to keep it pure and honest. Fn + Tab for Caps Lock seems more apropos and Fn + Pyra for Escape may work out as well. Back to Left Shift + Enter for Compose Mode too, possibly. 

Nothing personal, but I always get a chuckle out of the expression "power users". Such a silly, devaluing label hatched from the media outlets. :rolleyes: :lol:

 

[_wb_]

I think it makes more sense to have the default Compose key on Meta/Fn/AltGr+RShift (not the shoulder button shift, but the right keyboard shift). That way we have a reason to put a "Compose" label on that key, and it becomes a sensible key to use as a dedicated Compose key -- power users don't need two shift keys on the keyboard itself, since L1 is more effective as shift anyway.


If the two Right Shift keys, one on the shoulder and the other on the keyboard part, have different scancodes, then Fn + Right Keyboard Shift for Compose Mode does make sense. I am reluctant though to have Fn + combos on Shift keys. That includes Caps Lock also. I'd prefer all three Shifts were Shift keys only to keep it pure and honest. Fn + Tab for Caps Lock seems more apropos and Fn + Pyra for Escape may work out as well. Back to Left Shift + Enter for Compose Mode too, possibly.

I would make the right keyboard shift actually be a different key (Super, perhaps), so it gets a different scancode, and make the default configuration so that it works like a third shift key.


I don't really see why Shift has to remain more "pure and honest" than, say, Enter or Space. It's a small keyboard, we can't have too many keys with just one label.

Nothing personal, but I always get a chuckle out of the expression "power users". Such a silly, devaluing label hatched from the media outlets. :rolleyes: :lol:

What's wrong with the term "power user"? It sometimes makes sense to distinguish different types of users:


- lusers (unskilled and not willing to learn)


- noobs (unskilled but willing to learn)


- regular users (skilled, knows how to do most of the normal tasks)


- power users (very skilled, tries to get the most out of it)


Ideally, something (an application, a hardware design, whatever) works well for all types of users, but that is not always possible. Sometimes choices have to be made. One of the differences between the GNU/Linux (FOSS) way of doing things and the Apple/Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo (proprietary) way of doing things is that the former tends to optimize for power users while the latter usually optimizes for lusers.

 

[Caine]

In Dutch, you don't need any special letter frequently, but you do need ... â, ê, ô, œ and ç every now and then

Your Dutch must be different from mine (i.e. Flemish ). I don't recall ever writing those in Dutch.

 

[Saber]

I think it makes more sense to have the default Compose key on Meta/Fn/AltGr+RShift (not the shoulder button shift, but the right keyboard shift). That way we have a reason to put a "Compose" label on that key, and it becomes a sensible key to use as a dedicated Compose key -- power users don't need two shift keys on the keyboard itself, since L1 is more effective as shift anyway.


If the two Right Shift keys, one on the shoulder and the other on the keyboard part, have different scancodes, then Fn + Right Keyboard Shift for Compose Mode does make sense. I am reluctant though to have Fn + combos on Shift keys. That includes Caps Lock also. I'd prefer all three Shifts were Shift keys only to keep it pure and honest. Fn + Tab for Caps Lock seems more apropos and Fn + Pyra for Escape may work out as well. Back to Left Shift + Enter for Compose Mode too, possibly.

I would make the right keyboard shift actually be a different key (Super, perhaps), so it gets a different scancode, and make the default configuration so that it works like a third shift key.


I don't really see why Shift has to remain more "pure and honest" than, say, Enter or Space. It's a small keyboard, we can't have too many keys with just one label.

Nothing personal, but I always get a chuckle out of the expression "power users". Such a silly, devaluing label hatched from the media outlets. :rolleyes: :lol:

What's wrong with the term "power user"? It sometimes makes sense to distinguish different types of users:


- lusers (unskilled and not willing to learn)


- noobs (unskilled but willing to learn)


- regular users (skilled, knows how to do most of the normal tasks)


- power users (very skilled, tries to get the most out of it)


Ideally, something (an application, a hardware design, whatever) works well for all types of users, but that is not always possible. Sometimes choices have to be made. One of the differences between the GNU/Linux (FOSS) way of doing things and the Apple/Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo (proprietary) way of doing things is that the former tends to optimize for power users while the latter usually optimizes for lusers.

The "wrong" here is the categorizing people which means to say one group is more than another because of something. "Lusers" as you put it versus "Powers". All may be purchasers once or many times and all will use the product or they won't. That's not the error in thought here and has nothing to do with how simplistic the GUI will be for the skillset of the person staring into the monitor. What is is one set is devalued over another because of the inferiors inability or desire to learn.

I don't want to knee jerk a discussion like this here but I'll leave this excerpt below from the Wikipedia. 

"Many historians have asserted that Hitler's essential character can be discovered in Mein Kampf. In it, he categorized human beings by their physical attributes, claiming German or Nordic Aryans were at the top of the hierarchy while assigning the bottom orders to Jews and Romani. Hitler also claimed that dominated peoples benefit by learning from superior Aryans, and said the Jews were conspiring to keep this "master race" from rightfully ruling the world by diluting its racial and cultural purity, and exhorting Aryans to believe in equality rather than superiority and inferiority."

That's all I'll say on the matter. This is the keyboard layout thread so leave it as is.