Trying to get my pre-order refunded

[Mr_Loon]

Craig has on many cases reacted fairly strongly when a few people criticized him amidst many who supported him. Now that many are criticizing him, few are supporting him, and the overall tone is much more negative it figures that he'd leave completely, especially when he's probably focusing on iCP2 stuff instead. He's made posts before showing that he sees himself as the victim in all of this and even that ED has wronged him - if this is how he feels he probably thinks the critical attitude against him is undeserved but that it's futile to try to convince people of this.

This is an excellent point.


People who read some of my posts addressed to Craig might think I've got it in for him. This is not true, there is nothing I'd like more than Craig to come back all guns blazing, clarify the situation & make me look like a dick for asking in the first place. Craig is a complex person, possibly a genius, for heavens sake he almost invented kickstarter with the way the Pandora was funded. His ideas for products are great and he's got amazing marketing skills when he wants to use them.


But his communication skills are terrible, I'm not sure if it's pride, a smart marketing move way beyond my understanding or what, but for some reason when things don't go to plan he just seems to withdraw, this leads to speculation rumor and conjecture. I'm not saying he should detail everything in public on the boards but things like not telling ED how many pre orders he has left when ED is fulfilling orders for him just strikes me as nuts.


My apparently incorrect understanding was that the 1Ghz money had been used to refund people like HenrikR (Waiting since Oct 11 for refund). I guess it wasn't and from rereading Craigs post here it looks like it was a small number of people that had ordered large numbers of units (perhaps to sell on ebay?) that cancelled and were refunded. This makes sense.


Having to pay someone £10,000 in refunds for a bulk order with the potential of court action would make a compelling reason to spend the 1Ghz pre order money on something other than the intended purpose. It also makes sense in terms that if the 1 Ghz money was used to refund people like HenrikR then taking that money for 1 Ghz orders would have been plain dishonest, i.e. when the money was raised Craig already would already know it was going elsewhere.

However I'm still 'uneasy' about the 1 Ghz pre order fiasco.

Here is why


In the post linked above Craig talks about  refunding ~100 units

Let's say these refunds were for £250 each = £25,000 refunded in total.

Craig had approx 150 pre orders for 1 Ghz units lets say these were for £400 each (some were upgrades some were new orders) = £60,000

After the £25,000 refund this would leave £35,000

This £35,000 would have been enough to buy 100+ 1Ghz units from ED at cost price & fulfill those orders. Instead, as far as I know, Craig & ED shipped about 50 each but Craig never paid ED for those 50, and to my knowledge has still not done so to date.

These figures are all very 'gut feel' but I've tried to take a high estimate for cost of refunds and the cost of Craig buying units from ED and a low estimate of the amount raised by the pre orders.

Again, I'd like to stress I'm not shouting 'fraud or scam', but I am shouting 'for gods sake Craig, 'fess up, what went wrong, even if it is 'your fault', surely the least you can do is let people who pre ordered 1Ghz units know exactly what happened'.

 

[Exophase]

Craig is a complex person, possibly a genius, for heavens sake he almost invented kickstarter with the way the Pandora was funded.

Okay, I don't want to inject too much fresh negativity here but that claim is a total load. And it disturbs me that Craig himself has been saying things like that.

Pandora was not Kickstarter. When people paid for it in September 2008 it's because they were told they'd get their units before December. This was not a pitch to launch an idea, this was not providing a collection period with a required goal and reliable financing services. This was taking money based on a promise OPT should have known or even did know they couldn't keep. It was under the premise that the R&D was pretty much done and they just needed the money to pay the companies to start mass production. Actually, many were under the impression that they already had enough money to start manufacturing themselves.

KS is a novel idea but Craig deserves zero credit for what he did. It was dishonest, not genius, and the last thing he deserves is praise for it.

As for people who may have been burned harder than normal because they ordered huge quantities, if that was really the case then OPT should have definitely capped the order count. What Craig said later was that a lot of people sent in actual units they received and demanded their money back. He said that in the UK full refunds must be given no matter what, which I've always found hard to believe. At the very least, if he has to prioritize people to screw over those should be at the top of the list.

And regarding the calculations.. no reason to think the refunds were £250 on average. A lot of them could have been $500 upgrades. Point is, if he had money from 150 1GHz orders it wouldn't be enough to cover all several hundred outstanding orders, so eventually people would get shafted and even a small number would make a lot of noise about it. That doesn't mean Craig hasn't spent money on other things, like monthly rent, utilities, salary, etc costs.

But you won't get a confession out of Craig for why he didn't pay ED for those 70 units because as far as he's concerned he was promised those units for free.

 

[Null]

He said that in the UK full refunds must be given no matter what, which I've always found hard to believe.

http://www.onlineshoppingrights.co.uk/understanding-uk-distance-selling-regulations.html

 

[Exophase]

Craig wasn't too specific, but I got the impression that some of these people returning their Pandoras and wanting a full refund had it for many months or even over a year. If people were sending back Pandoras that they barely had and used it should have been possible to refurbish them to fulfill outsanding orders. I could be imagining this, but it seemed like Craig was implying that some were breaking them just to make a stronger case for getting a refund. I don't see anything on that page about warranty period but again Craig was saying that if the Pandora stops working at any point people were entitled to a full refund. I don't see how this could possibly be true, if you get to use a device for a long period of time then at least part of your payment should have gone towards that.

The 7-day cool-off requirement is reasonable, but the stipulation that if the seller doesn't specify it it gets extended to three months is insane. Are they doing this just to punish sellers? If you're required to have a 7-day period you should get a 7-day period and the seller should be required to inform the buyer of this. If the seller isn't informing the buyer the seller should be alerted to do so and possibly fined in violation. The buyer shouldn't be given a 17x extension. That's absolutely rife for abuse (ie, buying a Pandora so you can use it for some particular duration like while you're on a one month vacation, with the deliberate intention of returning it afterwards) and the government should not be encouraging customers to abuse sellers regardless of whether or not they're in compliance.

But if Craig is so knowledgeable of the UK restrictions but didn't make the offer known to his buyers then I don't feel a lot of sympathy for him.

 

[Mr_Loon]

Craig is a complex person, possibly a genius, for heavens sake he almost invented kickstarter with the way the Pandora was funded.

 
Okay, I don't want to inject too much fresh negativity here but that claim is a total load. And it disturbs me that Craig himself has been saying things like that.


Pandora was not Kickstarter. When people paid for it in September 2008 it's because they were told they'd get their units before December. This was not a pitch to launch an idea, this was not providing a collection period with a required goal and reliable financing services. This was taking money based on a promise OPT should have known or even did know they couldn't keep. It was under the premise that the R&D was pretty much done and they just needed the money to pay the companies to start mass production. Actually, many were under the impression that they already had enough money to start manufacturing themselves.


KS is a novel idea but Craig deserves zero credit for what he did. It was dishonest, not genius, and the last thing he deserves is praise for it.

By 'almost invented kickstarter' I mean he chose the one way to fund the project that would give it a chance of success, I may well be wrong but I can't think of any other project previous to the Pandora that was funded by community pre orders. If I'd been in his shoes I would have got the money from a bank / lender / and then gone out of business when sales could not be generated in a timely manner.


I also mean that if Craig, or anyone from the Pandora community had thought back in 2008 'You know, that was a really interesting way the project was funded, I wonder if there are other projects that could be funded that way and I wonder if I was to set up a website to facilitate that and took 5% if that would work....'


I do hold my hand up though to the statement 'almost invented kickstarter' being somewhat hyperbolic.

He said that in the UK full refunds must be given no matter what, which I've always found hard to believe.

That is true, in the UK if you buy goods remotely, i.e online, over the phone, by mail order etc. you are protected by the distance selling regulations which entitle you to a full refund if you return them in pristine condition within 1 week of receipt.

Edit :  h34r:

What I do find odd is that nobody came to the boards to relate that experience from the customer side & that I've not seen anyone posting they got refunds of any kind for ages.

And regarding the calculations.. no reason to think the refunds were £250 on average. A lot of them could have been $500 upgrades.

Good point, we need the real figures I guess, sad that the only person who can provide them is Craig.

But you won't get a confession out of Craig for why he didn't pay ED for those 70 units because as far as he's concerned he was promised those units for free.

As for being owed the units for free, must have missed that one / got it fogged by the mists of time, my recollection was that there was going to be a tax refund from the units refunded and then this would at least partially recover the debt for the 70 units, implying Craig did not think the units were his for free. It was a few months ago so apologies for any inaccuracies there.

 

[EvilDragon]

Well, in Germany you've got 14 days to return a product and get a full refund, you will even get the shipping costs refunded (even if you chose yourself to get express shipping!)


No big deal though. Of 2000 units I sold so far, I had about 10 returned... for me it sounds weird if he had hundreds of about 2500 units returned...

 

[Null]

I don't see anything on that page about warranty period

This may clear things up. http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1677034/Two-year-warranty-EU-law.html

 

[EvilDragon]

Yes, that's the same in Germany, however (something most people forget):

1. The return is only valid if the product had that defect FROM THE BEGINNING. If a unit was working fine and stopped working after 8 months, this is not applied.

2. Within the first 6 months, it's up to the SELLER to prove that the defect HAD NOT been there from the beginning. Not an easy thing to prove, so you usually get a full repair or replacement within the first 6 months, even if something breaks afterwards.

3. AFTER these 6 months, it's the other way round: The CUSTOMER has to prove that the defect had been there from the very beginning. So once the Pandora survives the first 6 months, it's highly unlikely you can claim a full refund or free repair.

 

[hedwards]

So, in other words, you screw over all the people who haven't yet received their units in order to punish him? With a punishment which would cause no problems at all for him in the future? Ever heard of cutting off ones nose to spite ones face?

Well, right now, it seems Craigs company doesn't have funds left (otherwise, they could pay the refunds).


My company is providing units to his customers as good as it can afford it.


That will continue whether he files for bankruptcy or not.


I cannot promise I will have enough funds to provide all units, but I'll do my best and with cross-upgrades, it might have a happy ending.


So a bankruptcy probably won't change much for his customers. Let's hope it will not happen, but this still might put your mind at ease a bit in case you're still waiting.

Didn't mean to imply that it was at all likely. It's probably technically possible, even for long established and profitable firms to go under. And I guess that it wouldn't technically be all the customers, just the ones at Craig's shop.

No, it really wouldn't. Bankruptcy exists so that a ruined business or large financial obligations don't destroy a person's future. If he went bankrupt all that would mean is that nobody would get the units that he's obligated to provide and his debts are wiped clean.

Going bankrupt could have serious ramifications for Craig, read this for further details.


The bit that may give Craig trouble is : 'In some cases directors may be subject to investigations to make sure they acted in good faith at all times and conducted themselves and the company according to legislation.'


He would have to explain things like exactly what happened to the 1 Ghz Pre Order Money.


Why the money collected for the dev fund was used to buy prototype units rather than being given to the devs.


Please don't think I'm accusing Craig of being a fraud / scammer, I don't know enough background details to do that*. What I do know is that Craig has an almost pathological dislike of providing clear & accurate information.


*Edit : My strong personal suspicion is that Craig's financial woes / misuse of the dev fund were caused by a cavalier attitude towards finances / not getting legal contracts in place with suppliers etc. rather than any form of deliberate fraud / scam.

Not likely, Craig has run other businesses before, I'm pretty sure he knows what he can and can't do legally.

As for the contracts, it's one thing to have a contract and another to be able to enforce it. Without funds to pay for litigation up front, it's difficult to take things to court as you'd likely go bankrupt before you were able to get an award.

Perhaps ED can shed some light on it, but I can't believe that they just gave CC money to produce the equipment to produce the boards without some sort of agreement in place.

As for his attitude towards finances, I can't imagine any firm managing to be able to absorb that amount of money being wasted by the firm producing the products. Cavalier or not, hundreds of thousands of pounds being lost due to 3rd party incompetence isn't something you can really plan for. You don't send something to that contractor if you think it's a realistic possibility.

I see plenty of claims that Craig has defrauded folks, but I have yet to see any evidence presented and I haven't heard of any investigation into it by the authorities either.

 

[darkborn]

I am sorry I'm posting it here, this is not a trolling.

It is very connected and we should not forget past things like fishes.

Please observe negative comments at iCP2 @kickstarter.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1703567677/icontrolpad-2-the-open-source-controller/comments

Whatever I comment more here, it will sound like trolling.

Forgive me but I have to said: I am worried.

 

[EvilDragon]

About the production at CC:


As far as I know, there only was an offer about the production costs which Craig agreed to.


No timeframe, no max failure rate, etc.


But that doesn't matter. CC were blatantly lying to us multiple times when we asked about the production status (and there's no need to put 'we shall not lie' into a contract), and normally, if nothing is noted in such an agreement, it will be handled as "industry standard" when it comes to court.


And their failure rate was far higher than any industry standard.

 

[Stephane Hockenhull]

Yeah, it says quite a bit about Craigs integrity by getting sued by Sony for selling illegal psps.

This is bullshit.

Selling imported game consoles isn't illegal.

Sony got paid for those consoles, what people do with them afterward is none of Sony's business.

If it was illegal, it'd be the government going after people and companies, not Sony.

The fact that Craig's company didn't have the millions of pounds to pay the legal fees to fight off Sony's army of layers in a BS lawsuit so his company was forced into bankruptcy doesn't mean it was illegal.

 

[EvilDragon]

Exactly. That was a huge thing in UK, as almost every shop selling PSPs were affected.

 

[andmaz777]

CEX sold imported PSPs, I know this for a fact as I bought mine from them specifically for emulation - the screen blur was bad though and in the end hardly used it after the first month even leaving the firmware as 1.00.


So Craig can be forgive for having to go bankrupt for this - it would not on its own put me off investing/buying from him.

 

[crazyhorse]

Yes, thats fair enough with the situation of the psps. I didn't realise thats how it was. Something still smells a bit fishy where Craig and finances are concerned though.Maybe he just thought well i've put a lot into this project and i'm going to make sure i take a little away from it, who knows?

 

[rohezal]

Maybe he just thought well i've put a lot into this project and i'm going to make sure i take a little away from it, who knows?

Misappropriation is a serious crime. If you say that he used the money for his own, he would in real trouble. Can you prove that he did it? If you can't this is called libel and it is a crime too. You can't accuse someone of a crime, when you can't prove he did it. A "question" can be libel too.

 

[andmaz777]

The Pandora is an actual product as is the ICP so all the talk of fraud has to stop unless there is ACTUAL proof which I would be shocked if there was.


Craig can obviously produce great products but he cannot do it to any deadline - that is his failing - being far too optimistic so everyone feels let down with massive delays.


4 years plus wait for some is now getting silly especially as without those that are now waiting there would be no Pandora - the only answer seems to be EDs plan and Craig to generate enough sales to fund clearing his pre orders.

 

[EvilDragon]

Misappropriation is a serious crime. If you say that used the money for his own, he would in real trouble. Can you prove that he did it?

Not necessarily. Company owners are hired by their own company and get a salary as well.


How much is up to himself, though. I'm currently taking the allowed minimum (yes, there IS something like that in Germany), but I could easily increase it.


No idea how much Craig got though.

 

[rohezal]

I knew that the "manager" of a company can pay himself a salary. This is fine. I did not know there is a minimum for it. I wanted to create a small busisness (gmbh), do I have to pay myself realy a minimum salary?

About libel, this post reads more like "took money of the company for his own stuff, not just a salary". But maybe I overreacted.

Something still smells a bit fishy where Craig and finances are concerned though.Maybe he just thought well i've put a lot into this project and i'm going to make sure i take a little away from it, who knows?

 

[Timstertoo]

I knew that the "manager" of a company can pay himself a salary. This is fine. I did not know there is a minimum for it. I wanted to create a small busisness (gmbh), do I have to pay myself realy a minimum salary?

About libel, this post reads more like "took money of the company for his own stuff, not just a salary". But maybe I overreacted.

Something still smells a bit fishy where Craig and finances are concerned though.Maybe he just thought well i've put a lot into this project and i'm going to make sure i take a little away from it, who knows?

He's not saying he did. He is just proposing a possible scenario. That's not libel. 

If he says: "Craig has taken most money from his company for his private use, including the 1GhZ and all the pre order money. I know this as a fact" and it's not true it might stand a chance in court as libel.

Also Craig could easily end all speculation by simply come out of hiding and be honest about everything. As long as he doesn't do that there will be speculation. Even ED doesn't know the specifics, and he certainly is entitled to know every fact as he is saving Craig's arse, where Craig isn't mature enough to hold up his own pants, and getting very little thanks from Craig out of it.