Trying to get my pre-order refunded

[EvilDragon]

But I don't have any problems sending out UK orders.


I just said that I don't agree with the style Craig communicates with his customers. It's a personal opinion and if the majority of his customers is happy how he handles the current situation, then I was at fault here.


And I said that I would understand if someone would opt for bankruptcy because of that, it would be for a good reason.


What exactly did I post that is against his customers, or bad for his customers?


This is just my opinion and that's it.


Besides, I'd try to continue delivering to Craigs customers whether his company is bancrupt or not. I am not liable to do that, I'm doing this because I thin it's unfair if only my customers are being served, but that doesn't have anything to do with OP Ltd. being bankrupt or not, I'd just continue doing that as long as I can afford it.


I cannot promise everyone will get his Pandora from me (that's totally impossible without even knowing the remaining amount of waiting customers), but I'll deliver units as good as I can afford, with or without a bankruptcy of OP Ltd.


So what exactly was uncalled for?

 

[klapse]

Ed, the last 3 sentences of that post were not called for, just be courteous and refer other UK orders (of which i am one) to the relevant official contact information.


If you are unhappy funding Craigs preorders through pandora sales then say it properly.


The passive low level digs at craig are getting a bit tedious mate.


I'm not interested in bankruptcy talk while there is still an option on the table.

Ed has good reason to criticize Craig for his lack of communication. Ed's company is currently funding, out of pocket, Craig's outstanding preorders, but he isn't getting (through private communication) exact figures of how many of each type of preorder remains. Ed has always been public with the important information, so it goes against his principles when he can't get and share the status of the preorder queues.


These arent "passive low level digs" but a public expression of disapproval about a few specific actions (or inactions) of Craig's.


I already got my pandora along with very friendly service from Ed, but if I were a Craig customer/preorderer/investor, I would want to know how many people were in the queue ahead of me and when (based on current sales figures) I could expect my unit. Then I could make my decision of whether to upgrade or not based on the projected ship date.


If I were Ed, I would be very tempted to stop shipping free units to Craig's customers until Craig agreed to give me the real figures of 1Ghz, Classic and refund queues.


If you're a preorderer reading this, I advise you to go ahead and upgrade through Ed's shop. Otherwise prepare for a long, long wait.

 

[andmaz777]

ED has been far too kind if the truth be told.


Ok without Craig there would be no Pandora but without ED it would now all be over in a bad way.


If some of Craig's decisions had gone the right way then all pre orders would now be filled but they were long shots as indicated by the present state go play.


ED is being extremely fair with Craig and his pre orders - if it was me at this point it would have to be a clean break and leaving Craig to sort his own mess out which after 4 years would be a fair thing to do.

 

[Mr_Loon]

Just to provide some more depressing context for those of you who are wondering what the odds of getting your money back are - I cancelled my pre-order in August, 2011, and still haven't gotten a single euro back. Since I cancelled I have gotten a response every three months or so from Jacquelyn (and a couple from EvilDragon) telling me to wait or asking me if I got the money, respectively. Neither of them have been able to get me my refund though for the last one and a half years. Of course there's no good reason for keeping somebody's money for that long, but there's not much I can do except to ask to please give me back my money, and hope for the best.

WTF?

The 1Ghz Pre Order money for Craig's orders was supposedly spent on (100's of ?) refunds. I'm starting to wonder if that was really the case. Posts like this and the fact that I do not recall anyone in posting on the boards that they received a refund after the 1Ghz pre order fiasco make me wonder what on earth is going on.

If anyone did receive a refund from Craig after the 1Ghz pre order money was taken then please let us know.

@ Craig : Please come out of hiding and give a clear response.

 

[EvilDragon]

Just to provide some more depressing context for those of you who are wondering what the odds of getting your money back are - I cancelled my pre-order in August, 2011, and still haven't gotten a single euro back. Since I cancelled I have gotten a response every three months or so from Jacquelyn (and a couple from EvilDragon) telling me to wait or asking me if I got the money, respectively. Neither of them have been able to get me my refund though for the last one and a half years. Of course there's no good reason for keeping somebody's money for that long, but there's not much I can do except to ask to please give me back my money, and hope for the best.

Well, I can't do much except for replying to you... my company basically has nothing to do with your order, so I can't refund anything. :/


I can only try to help.

 

[crazyhorse]

Yeah, it says quite a bit about Craigs integrity by getting sued by Sony for selling illegal psps.

 

[EvilDragon]

Yeah, it says quite a bit about Craigs integrity by getting sued by Sony for selling illegal psps.

That happened to a LOT of shops in the UK.


The European release of the PSP was one year after the Japanese release, that's why a lot of stores imported the PSP.


It was also what killed Lik-Sang, may they never be forgotten.

 

[hedwards]

Rather than just come with excuses however valid they are, Craig should just come out either publicly or via private email apologise unreservedly for the extreme delays in delivering units and refunds. No excuses just an apology - no matter who is to blame or delays it is ultimately OPT who have not delivered.


No one could then have a go at him - its no good people saying think yourself lucky he just did not go bankrupt.


Bankruptcy would have an major impact on any future projects Craig is involved in so it is in his interest as well for this not to happen - in fact bankruptcy for Craig would be life changing whilst not getting a refund/unit is just an inconvenience albeit an expensive one.

No, it really wouldn't. Bankruptcy exists so that a ruined business or large financial obligations don't destroy a person's future. If he went bankrupt all that would mean is that nobody would get the units that he's obligated to provide and his debts are wiped clean. ED has a separate business so he'd continue with his orders, unless of course something went horribly wrong with his business as well.

The unfortunate truth is that you're lucky they didn't just cancel out your order along with all the other orders and declare bankruptcy.

I'm at the point where I think it would be appropriate for the Pandora folks to opt for bankruptcy, I think it only fair that such a permanent mark affect ED, Jaqueline, Craig, et all for the rest of their lives.

It has been over 4 years since I ordered, and I have not received a single piece of correspondence from anyone. Bankruptcy is the appropriate consequence for fucking up this bad.

So, in other words, you screw over all the people who haven't yet received their units in order to punish him? With a punishment which would cause no problems at all for him in the future? Ever heard of cutting off ones nose to spite ones face?

 

[darkborn]

Craig is no longer in a position to do much with the project.

This is so untrue.

Hate to make this thread go on. I also requested my refund, it has been 6 weeks, and no word. My impression was "You were stupid enough to be a round 1 investor and your money has been burned. Sorry, Have a Nice Day, You bet on the lottery and lost.

THomas

Ditto.

For years I've been telling him every now and then to be open and honest with his customers, apologize and ask for understanding than simply ignoring them or telling them the money is on the way when that's not the case.


I am doing that and never had problems with my customers, but for some reason, Craig does not want that.


This is something I really think could lead to someone opting his company for bankruptcy. And it would be a good reason.

ED as a first, and then all of us is/are hostage(s) of Craig's irresponsibility.


Beside, Craig left this community. We are dead meat for him.


You can't erase community, and then make bigger and more older (!) one, e.g. "ICP2" Craig!


I'm thinking about his avatar, stolen from a "Whitnail and I" movie poster.


Craig is acting more and more like Whitnail, character from that movie.


I did not say that ED becomes Marwood but... <_<

 

[hedwards]

Craig is no longer in a position to do much with the project.

This is so untrue.

This is so untrue.

See, I can post useless posts which don't contribute as well.

EDIT: The reason why they're being held hostage to it is that Craig had 3/4 of the orders and paid 3/4 of the funds to produce the units. The units that ED is producing could never have been produced without those orders. So, of course Craig has 3/4 of the problem, the money from his preorderers paid a a larger share  of the cost of setting up production in the first place.

 

[EvilDragon]

So, in other words, you screw over all the people who haven't yet received their units in order to punish him? With a punishment which would cause no problems at all for him in the future? Ever heard of cutting off ones nose to spite ones face?

Well, right now, it seems Craigs company doesn't have funds left (otherwise, they could pay the refunds).


My company is providing units to his customers as good as it can afford it.


That will continue whether he files for bankruptcy or not.


I cannot promise I will have enough funds to provide all units, but I'll do my best and with cross-upgrades, it might have a happy ending.


So a bankruptcy probably won't change much for his customers. Let's hope it will not happen, but this still might put your mind at ease a bit in case you're still waiting.

 

[EvilDragon]

EDIT: The reason why they're being held hostage to it is that Craig had 3/4 of the orders and paid 3/4 of the funds to produce the units. The units that ED is producing could never have been produced without those orders. So, of course Craig has 3/4 of the problem, the money from his preorderers paid a a larger share  of the cost of setting up production in the first place.

Well, I'm not sure about that one.


I don't have any insights where how much money has been spent, but Craig was always emphasizing that the payment from the customers we're ONLY the pure production costs. All development and setup costs had already been covered by his own money.


Given the price we took for the units back then (less than the pure production price these days), it sounds like that was the case, so the setup costs should not have been paid from the preorder money.


Of course, anything deriving from the bad things that happened (like the Nub company going bust with 30K lost) had to be covered somehow, but then again I also had to pay more bills than planned.


Don't forget I also had to cover the full setup costs for the PCBs when moving the production to Germany. This is something you can't get around when switching companies.

 

[Mr_Loon]

No, it really wouldn't. Bankruptcy exists so that a ruined business or large financial obligations don't destroy a person's future. If he went bankrupt all that would mean is that nobody would get the units that he's obligated to provide and his debts are wiped clean.

Going bankrupt could have serious ramifications for Craig, read this for further details.

The bit that may give Craig trouble is : 'In some cases directors may be subject to investigations to make sure they acted in good faith at all times and conducted themselves and the company according to legislation.'

He would have to explain things like exactly what happened to the 1 Ghz Pre Order Money.

Why the money collected for the dev fund was used to buy prototype units rather than being given to the devs.

Please don't think I'm accusing Craig of being a fraud / scammer, I don't know enough background details to do that*. What I do know is that Craig has an almost pathological dislike of providing clear & accurate information.

*Edit : My strong personal suspicion is that Craig's financial woes / misuse of the dev fund were caused by a cavalier attitude towards finances / not getting legal contracts in place with suppliers etc. rather than any form of deliberate fraud / scam.

 

[Timstertoo]

First time I hear ED implying that he might not be able to service everyone.


Understandable yet depressing.


I`m late batch1 so propably screwed. Big thanks to you though ED for doing your best.

 

[EvilDragon]

No, it really wouldn't. Bankruptcy exists so that a ruined business or large financial obligations don't destroy a person's future. If he went bankrupt all that would mean is that nobody would get the units that he's obligated to provide and his debts are wiped clean.

Going bankrupt could have serious ramifications for Craig, read this for further details.


The bit that may give Craig trouble is : 'In some cases directors may be subject to investigations to make sure they acted in good faith at all times and conducted themselves and the company according to legislation.'


He would have to explain things like exactly what happened to the 1 Ghz Pre Order Money.


Why the money collected for the dev fund was used to buy prototype units rather than being given to the devs.


Please don't think I'm accusing Craig of being a fraud / scammer, I don't know enough background details to do that*. What I do know is that Craig has an almost pathological dislike of providing clear & accurate information.


*Edit : My strong personal suspicion is that Craig's financial woes were caused by a cavalier attitude towards finances / not getting legal contracts in place with suppliers etc. rather than any form of deliberate fraud / scam.

Well, it depends. I've spoken a few times with Craig about a potential bankruptcy (as there were a few times where this could've happened), and he always assured me he would personally be fine as he never did anything illegal with that money.

According to him he was legally forced to use the 1GHz money to pay back refunds. I'm not into UK company laws, so I don't know if that's true. In Germany, when a company is on the edge and there's a viable solution, then this solution has a higher priority than paying back the customers right away, but it might be different in UK.

He also claimed he never used any money for anything else than it was intended to, so he should be safe.

It's just what he told me though, I have no idea if that's all true and I certainly don't want him to be in personal trouble.

First time I hear ED implying that he might not be able to service everyone.


Understandable yet depressing.


I`m late batch1 so propably screwed. Big thanks to you though ED for doing your best.

Nope, I mentioned that in a different thread already, based on calculations.

I have no idea how many are left, so how could I know whether I am able to service everyone?

There's a huge difference whether 300 preorders are left or 1000.

That would be a difference of additional 210,000 EUR needed, where should that money come from?

 

[Timstertoo]

I didn't mean anything bad towards you ED.


I just think I'm noticing that you aren't as absolutely positive that everyone will get their Pandora in the end as you were say two months ago.


Probably a lot to do with Craig's big disappearing trick and his new market strategy. It appears he is trying reverse psychology by not doing anything at all and hoping that will get people interested in what this secret thing is nobody is telling them about.


In any event, once again, thank you.

 

[Exophase]

WTF?

The 1Ghz Pre Order money for Craig's orders was supposedly spent on (100's of ?) refunds. I'm starting to wonder if that was really the case. Posts like this and the fact that I do not recall anyone in posting on the boards that they received a refund after the 1Ghz pre order fiasco make me wonder what on earth is going on.

If anyone did receive a refund from Craig after the 1Ghz pre order money was taken then please let us know.

@ Craig : Please come out of hiding and give a clear response.

Let's say at some point in time Craig starts with 700 (just a random number, but it's in the ballpark) unfulfilled pre-orders. Then he receives money for 150 1GHz pre-orders, but all of a sudden also receives 200 refund requests and has to spend the money on that. So now he has no money and is still responsible for 650 pre-orders, where the number only went down by 50. If all of a sudden a bunch of people wanted refunds wouldn't more people from those 650 want refunds? The more time passes and the worse the situation looks the more refunds will be requested. That is going to include people who paid for and didn't reveive 1GHz units. The initial people who successfully got refunds are for the most part not going to come here and post praise that they got it - people who asked for refunds most likely were either fed up after years of waiting or desperately needed the money. The former isn't going to be enthusiastic about sticking around the boards at all (if they were ever here, but you get the point, they won't see your response) and the latter is likely to be preoccupied with more serious things.

So no need to turn to anything more insidious than what we know so far.

Probably a lot to do with Craig's big disappearing trick and his new market strategy. It appears he is trying reverse psychology by not doing anything at all and hoping that will get people interested in what this secret thing is nobody is telling them about.

Craig has on many cases reacted fairly strongly when a few people criticized him amidst many who supported him. Now that many are criticizing him, few are supporting him, and the overall tone is much more negative it figures that he'd leave completely, especially when he's probably focusing on iCP2 stuff instead. He's made posts before showing that he sees himself as the victim in all of this and even that ED has wronged him - if this is how he feels he probably thinks the critical attitude against him is undeserved but that it's futile to try to convince people of this.

 

[andmaz777]

Simple matter is that if Craig went bankrupt iro this project then most people would never deal with him again.


Does not stop him getting involved with other projects but if people find out it would cause issues - we all now know about the import PSP bankruptcy but that is understandable.


Would ICP2 kick starter have been funded if OPT bankruptcy had been opted for?

 

[Exophase]

Simple matter is that if Craig went bankrupt iro this project then most people would never deal with him again.


Does not stop him getting involved with other projects but if people find out it would cause issues - we all now know about the import PSP bankruptcy but that is understandable.


Would ICP2 kick starter have been funded if OPT bankruptcy had been opted for?

I wonder. Tim Roberts of the old Infinium Labs Phantom bankrupted several companies while blowing millions of venture capital, much of it wasted on expensive parties, private jets, and his own high salary. He's also defaulted on several agreements and has a bunch of open lawsuits against him, including an SEC bar from running any companies.. and yet he still keeps getting enthusiasm and money from investors for new projects.

 

[Timstertoo]

I agree Exophase. ED taking care of some details on the website itself might have triggered him to throw his toys out of his pram and not help ED sell units anymore.

He probably thinks that if ED is going to send the units anyways he doesn't have to do anything. Guess he needs to grow up a bit. Also if that is what he thinks he should hand over the list of remaining orders to ED and be done with it.

It's fun being Craig. Thinking up wild ideas, making it a reality and then just drifting on to the next crazy idea before the first one is fully taken care of and let others mop up behind you. And if you don't like something, you just don't react because the rest of the world just doesn't get it and they are all idiots. 

I'll have to start getting used to the idea that I've just wasted 3,5 years of participation on these boards and the old ones as I don't believe ED is going to sell enough units to get to my late batch1 unit with the current marketing activity.

The Pandora is getting undercut in price by faster more modern things and the specs are starting to age. The amount of potential buyers is only going to get smaller, not bigger, and without a smart marketing effort that, if you don't have the funds to pay a lot, certainly will take up a hell of a lot more time a week then ED has, is the only thing that can try to get the most out of the Pandora1's lifetime. If there wasn't a queue left they should have been scrambling to bring the today specced P2 out right now and with their still unique form factor it would have had good chance of selling quite some units.

I feel like an idiot for really believing OPT would come through for everyone up till 2/3 weeks ago.