Trying to find a fair solution

[Binky]

he has done something illegal, he took money, entered into a contract with you then breached the contract.

Craig, or OP Ltd?

the ponzi pyramid scam  

Yeah, that's a pretty good description of Craig's business plan. 

I can see that, in many ways, the operation resembles a sell-people-stuff-and-then-don't-deliver-the-product and then charge-customers-again-for-the-product-you're-never-going-to-deliver-anyway scam.

But how is it a pyramid scam?

I though pyramid scams relied on everyone persuading their friends to pay for the opportunity to fleece money out of their friends, ad infinitum.

 

[THB]

But how is it a pyramid scam?

I though pyramid scams relied on everyone persuading their friends to pay for the opportunity to fleece money out of their friends, ad infinitum.

Nope, they end when there are no new funds coming in with tragic results. Exactly what craig managed to do here, new orders paying for old until the funds run out or the refunds get to be too much.

Then you run off with a 3D printer in your electric car on to the next scam.

 

[ekianjo]

Craig, or OP Ltd?

Whoever is the responsible person of that entity. 

 

[ekianjo]

But how is it a pyramid scam?

Seriously do we have to explain it to you ?

1. Get money to provide a product

2. Do not provide all products.

3. Keep the rest of the money for a different purpose (whether it's gambling, paying off debts, electric car, 3d printer...)

4. Keep getting orders while only delivering very few units of your products (using "upgrades" schemes, 1Ghz preorders...) to make it seem you are running a legit business

5. Pay/Influence/Impersonate people to give you good publicity to make it seem you are still a good guy running a legit business

6. When enough people realize what's happening, run out of money and cut all communication like an ol' crook

7. Wait for the police to knock on your door, or an angry mob to lynch you

Some of my family members have been pyramid-scammed before and that looks exactly like Craig's mode of operation. 

The sad thing is, very few people who were scammed end up getting their money back. But a few do. 

So right now, we reached point 6. Anyone courageous enough to take it to point 7?

 

[Godmil]

That's not a pyramid scheme. A pyramid scheme involves a system where money filters upwards, new people pay in at the bottom and their money goes to the previous people. If this was the case Craig would be rich, and not in massive dept. I think it's time to stop the exaggerated accusations, it's not helping anyone.

 

[rohezal]

A pyramid sheme is based on few people (A) get money from more people B. Then people from B get more from even more people C. And so on. After a few rounds the whole planet would need to participate. And the people who joined latest will just get nothing but paid money. This is scam. Craig did not do this.

I think we should focus on solutions not on "Craig is an !"§$%&/()!". I would like to know where the money went. In the prototype of the Pandoras, on mould creation, ordering parts and production cost. But I would like when ED would get records to read for more transparency. But this is not the topic. The topic is: "What is the best way to deliver as much as possible Pandoras to preorders, with out ruining ED ('finding a fair solution')".

10 people participated in the "what would you choose poll": http://boards.openpandora.org/index.php/topic/14062-what-option-would-you-take-to-resolve-the-preorder-queue/?mode=show

When we take the numbers and do the math we the queue (and hope all people would choose like the poll which is very unlikely):

300€ upgrade

no cost

200€ upgrades (100€ needed):

50% of 500 = 250

250 * 100 = 25.000 €

50€ upgrades (50€ needed):

10% of 500 = 50

50 * 50 = 2500€

290€ for waiting people

10% of 50 = 50

50 * 290 = 14500€

42000€ would needed.

If the waiting people would be forced to an other option it would be around 30.000€. If the 200€ upgrades would have to pay 250€, it would be around 20.000€. This means 200 pandora sales. This sounds possible.

 

[sebt3]

So right now, we reached point 6. Anyone courageous enough to take it to point 7?

It's not a matter of being courageous but plain stupid. What for ?OP ltd is a company. The ltd mean "limited" as in : with limited responsability. Limited responsability company cannot be procecuded for more than the company still own. With an ltd, craigx things arent in danger of being sized.

Then OP ltd at best have only debs, with no money. By law, the debs are paid before customers in case a bankruptcy (and the gouvernment even before) until the money runs out.

Worst icp2 ltd isnt related to op ltd, so even if op ltd sink, icp2 isnt affected nor craigx.

So going after op ltd will only result in the company closing doors, ED doesnt get any more money back nor any craigx pandora customers. Craigx is still legally fine (if he though to pay him correctly with customers money), icp2 can still go its way (aka more customers witout any devices).

Ho, should I remember you that going in court isnt free either, and while you've a large chunk of chance to "win", you'll only win more money lost...

 

[ekianjo]

ED doesnt get any more money back nor any craigx pandora customers.

What's the big difference with the current state of things?  

Craigx is still legally fine

Yeah but his reputation would certainly be different after such an event.  

icp2 can still go its way

Sure, but then ICP2 customers have a good historical reason, if OP LTD closes, to fear the worst and take legal action faster while there is still cash in the bank. Assuming there is some left.  

Limited responsability company cannot be procecuded for more than the company still own

Yeha, and do you have the figures for what money is left in OP LTD ? The only source of info is Craig, and God knows how much truth comes out of his mouth.  

courageous but plain stupid

It's not stupid to care about your money. Your money is time, work, it's about self-respect.  

craigx things arent in danger of being sized

It;s not about seizing things. I never mentioned that. It's about making a public reputation for that guy.  

Come back when you understand my comments

 

[rohezal]

Yeah but his reputation would certainly be different after such an event.

I don't think so, limiteds come and go and nobody cares. At least in Germany. Lets close "A and B limited" and create "B and A limited". New company, fresh start nothing remains. Maybe if you did realy stupid or bad stuff you are banned a few years and can't create a limited. But that's all. And I think it is very unlikely to be banned. But please stop this or make a seperate thread for it. This thread is about finding a solution, not about sue a limited company without money.

 

[ekianjo]

This thread is about finding a solution

Again, back on the thread topic exactly : please include Craig in the solution. ED has no binding responsibility to do this.  Craig has. 

 

[Klumpen]

But how is it a pyramid scam?

Seriously do we have to explain it to you ?

1. Get money to provide a product

2. Do not provide all products.

3. Keep the rest of the money for a different purpose (whether it's gambling, paying off debts, electric car, 3d printer...)

4. Keep getting orders while only delivering very few units of your products (using "upgrades" schemes, 1Ghz preorders...) to make it seem you are running a legit business

5. Pay/Influence/Impersonate people to give you good publicity to make it seem you are still a good guy running a legit business

6. When enough people realize what's happening, run out of money and cut all communication like an ol' crook

7. Wait for the police to knock on your door, or an angry mob to lynch you

The first time I heard about this ominous "Jacquelin" as a damper for bad reputation, I thought about that model too.

I never believed she existed, because the name always appeard when Craigs reputation was about to hit the bottom.

Has any of the first 1Ghz models sold by Craig reached a customer and if so, how many?

Invent a name that sounds as feminine as it can get, use some sweet talk and you gain some more patience.

Old trick. I think, the moment Craig really realized, that there is no fast money to be made with OP, he changed his course to this.

Of course I/we cannot prove any of it, who could?

 

[moxie]

That's not a pyramid scheme. A pyramid scheme involves a system where money filters upwards, new people pay in at the bottom and their money goes to the previous people. If this was the case Craig would be rich, and not in massive dept. I think it's time to stop the exaggerated accusations, it's not helping anyone.

What he said. There is a certain value in being truthful. If you want to claim that wrongdoings have been perpetrated, get your wrongdoing terminology right. Also, get your facts straight, and don't claim to know stuff that you don't. That goes for everybody, about everything, and that means even about Craig. Do not accuse him (or anyone else, surely) of stuff you cannot substantiate. That is the moderator green coming out there. Don't do it, or you'll get slammed with some sort of sanction.

Use your brains for a short minute: Let's assume that someone manages to find a lawyer willing to help bring Craig to court (and before someone goes on about small claims courts and not costing money - Do ponder the fact that the judicial system is different in different countries. It's not quite that easy in th UK, unless I'm gravely misinformed). What will be the first thing that Craig would do? Why, he'll pop over here and check out what has happened that led to this development. Now, when he finds the boards full of these kinds of things, how long would it take him to pull together a countersuit for libel? The target of which would be ED (since it is his servers), and since we are talking an international audience with good visibility in the subject area in which Craig earns his living, he could reasonably claim rather big damages.

Just because this is the internet does not mean it is a law-free zone. You just don't realize it until much, much later.

 

[moxie]

The first time I heard about this ominous "Jacquelin" as a damper for bad reputation, I thought about that model too.

I never believed she existed, because the name always appeard when Craigs reputation was about to hit the bottom.

Has any of the first 1Ghz models sold by Craig reached a customer and if so, how many?

Invent a name that sounds as feminine as it can get, use some sweet talk and you gain some more patience.

Old trick.

I have spoken to Jaqueline on the phone several year ago. Unless Craig has had interesting surgery done to  him long time ago, that was most definitely not Craig.

Once again: Do not come with accusations that you cannot substantiate.

 

[Klumpen]

Ok

 

[sebt3]

Beside, nobody can tell Craigx planned all this at the begining, it's just bad project management. Scam is when it was planned, and it was not.

I requested screw to craigx, and at some point I though he just lied to me when he sais he send them... I received them 9 months later, yet the send date on the package was the right one. He wasnt lying to me. To me Craigx have being honest in the beggining. Then he lied us about his financial dificulties hoping to revert the trends this way. The plan did not work. that's it...

Saying pandora was a scam all along is just insulting the man...

 

[moxie]

The first reference I have to Jaquelyn is in a mail from openpandorasales@gmail.blabla from the 7th of january, 2009. It was about a year later that I had reasons to call OPltd and spoke to her. If Craig is supposed to have invented her to save his reputation, he sure was foresighted.

Also, back in the days, there was quite a lot of people that used the lowly telephone to contact OPltd, so if you check back through the boards for people who have actually spoken to either Jaquelyn or Debs, you'll find quite a lot of them. Rather well known members of the community, too, if someone want to go the "Oooh, sockpuppets!" route.

Can we stop this silliness, now?

 

[ekianjo]

Ok, now his reputation is safe. Craig never screwed anyone because a mod says so, and threatens of sanction to who claims otherwise. Great discussion.

 

[Binky]

Ok, now his reputation is safe. Craig never screwed anyone because a mod says so, and threatens of sanction to who claims otherwise. Great discussion.

Where did a mod say that?

Quote(s)?

 

[Timstertoo]

Yeah but his reputation would certainly be different after such an event.

I don't think so, limiteds come and go and nobody cares. At least in Germany. Lets close "A and B limited" and create "B and A limited". New company, fresh start nothing remains. Maybe if you did realy stupid or bad stuff you are banned a few years and can't create a limited. But that's all. And I think it is very unlikely to be banned. But please stop this or make a seperate thread for it. This thread is about finding a solution, not about sue a limited company without money.

It such a shame that we don't have a Pandora owner who is also a kickass British corporate lawyer with a mean streak. 

We're simply all guessing what we think it should be.

In Holland a BV is much like a LTD, if you do correct business but go belly up your private money is secure. But if mis management can be proven it changes and you suddenly are liable privately too. 

So if there is such a rule in England there would not only be a chance to at least finish this LTD and tarnish Craig's reputation a bit but also go for the house, the car and the 3d printer.

Personally I'm just looking for an out I can sell to myself so I've sent ED a PM a week ago that I'll up to € 200,- if any of those spots are left (no reply up till now) but I would be willing to donate €50,- or so to any effort, with enough people jumping in and a sensible strategy, to pull Craig down all the way. I don't have the financial motivation, time or gumption to start something like this up myself.

If he would've kept communicating and work hard on trying to make the best out of a shitty situation. (basically be ED ) I would be shouting hardest to leave to poor guy alone and let's take this hit as a community but with the whole ICP2 mess on top and the sheer arrogance he shows the gloves are off as far as I'm concerned.

We really don't know what's really up. Maybe he didn't involve the house and maybe he has a savings account somewhere he kept for a rainy day.

But in any event, step one would ideally be to have a Pandora project friendly lawyer break down the realistic options to us without charge (I'll pledge a hot meal and a couple of pints in my bar in Amsterdam if he ever makes it this way) and then with complete information decide what the sensible, or most satisfying, thing to do would be.

 

[sebt3]

Ok, now his reputation is safe. Craig never screwed anyone because a mod says so, and threatens of sanction to who claims otherwise. Great discussion.

Nobody said craigx never screwed anyone, 'cause he did.
Yet this thread looks more and more a trial of intent which is clearly off-topic and useless. Beside there are evidences that it is not intentionnal, so please stop, and stay on topic : is ED's proposition the best way to try to unscrew as most as possible ?