Trying to find a fair solution

[LineOf7s]

If you preorders guys had taken things seriously with Craig maybe there would be less people screwed up by Icp2 and 1Ghz preorders.

There you go pre-orderers.  You bastards.  You've ruined it for everybody.  You'll probably even keep people from getting a Pandora 2 with your passive-aggressive not-pay-more-money-for-something-you-already-paid-full-price-for tactics.  [/sarcasm]

I seem to have managed to get my refund just before the refund well dried up.  Whilst I continue to sympathise with preorderers that haven't received anything yet (knowing I would have been one), I thank Holy Lord Jebus I got out when I did... crushed as I was at the time.

 

[sebt3]

^^ Luck is the keyword here, no ?

 

[ekianjo]

There you go pre-orderers.  You bastards. 

Oh, you like to put stuff I dont say in my mouth huh ? 

I'm not blaming the pre-orders, I'm just writing a "if... then..." scenario that did not occur. But the thing I hate to see is pre-orders asking/demanding free units from ED and being pissed off because they don't get their way, while they did nothing to look for solutions with Craig. 

So, sorry if I fail to have much empathy for these kind of people. But I do realize not EVERY pre-order person is like that, just the more vocal ones. 

 

[RMJ250]

There you go pre-orderers.  You bastards. 

Oh, you like to put stuff I dont say in my mouth huh ? 

I'm not blaming the pre-orders, I'm just writing a "if... then..." scenario that did not occur. But the thing I hate to see is pre-orders asking/demanding free units from ED and being pissed off because they don't get their way, while they did nothing to look for solutions with Craig. 

So, sorry if I fail to have much empathy for these kind of people. But I do realize not EVERY pre-order person is like that, just the more vocal ones. 

Up until recently I thought Craig was moving along through his pre-orders, albiet very slowly. I still want my Pandora and thought I was helping the project by not jumping up and down or demanding a refund, but was wary of giving him anymore money. So it comes as something of a surprise to be told suddenly oh by the way Craig hasn't been sending anything for x amount of time and your money has gone. I am in awe of Ed trying to sort it out once and for all, now he finally has the list and we know how bad it is I am willing to give him money to finally get my hands on one, I now await the update from Ed so that we can make this happen..

 

[Godmil]

Well it sounds like there are some people willing to upgrade.  Hopefully once that option becomes a reality, it will take a nice chip off the queue.  That is once the screens issue gets solved.  I presume ED is promoting the Pandora at Gamescon... gatta be annoying doing that knowing he doesn't actually have any stock at the moment.

 

[PokeParadox]

Well it sounds like there are some people willing to upgrade.  Hopefully once that option becomes a reality, it will take a nice chip off the queue.  That is once the screens issue gets solved.  I presume ED is promoting the Pandora at Gamescon... gatta be annoying doing that knowing he doesn't actually have any stock at the moment.

True... I really hope that some news on the screens is coming soon...

 

[xcen]

well yes, let's all focus on hating craig and figuring out ways to make him pay for his crimes! That's constructive, right? Punish the guy, we'll all feel better!

Plus starting an international class action law suit should be really easy right? And we all have lawyers working for free that will take up this hopeless case with no chance of positive outcome, right?

Even better! Let's all write him hatemail and send him dead animals through the mail! that'll fix things right up, right.... RIGHT???!

You're annoying the fuck out of me shleedragon -_-

People who are happy to bend over and take it rather than actually doing something about a weasel like Craig annoy the fuck out of me.

It's the way things have panned out with the Pandora that has led Craig to repeat this whole fiasco with the ICP2. 2000+ more people left with money missing from their wallets and no idea when the fuck Craig is actually going to deliver, or if he ever will. Perhaps if he'd actually been confronted, rather than mollycoddled and constantly bailed out he might have learned a lesson. Instead, the only thing Craig has learned here is that if he screws up other people will step in to clean up his mess, with absolutely no repercussions for him.

Want me to annoy you a little more? because I'm going to.. without actually meaning too.


(if you are a preorder) - You got boned years ago and you are willing to attach yourself to ANY kind of resolution to get the preorder you paid for... but apparently the realistic option is forbidden to consider.

1) Accept Craig boned you.. walk away


2) Feel angry and kill your sense of entitlement. (From ED)

3) Find some middle ground and accept the incredible offer that ED is going to offer the preorders.

4) Finish this Saga!

I think ED needs to hit the ejection seat and get away from the preorders... and it looks like he's going to sooner than later.

There are 500 people who were lied too and lost the money they preordered.. It's about time they considered their options. Walking away or buying one of EDs sweetheart deals. Those are the only two options.

What annoys me is the constant suggestion that ED should give up when he's doing all he does out of his own volution. The notion that angry preorderers are kiiling further development is preposterous to me.

If you've been following my posts, I'd be more than happy to give ED 300EU to get this over with. Hell, I wish I could do it right now.

I pretty well know I've lost my money, I'm angry at craig and if I lived in the same town I'd pay him a daily visit to annoy the fuck out of him. I'm just annoyed at you seemingly hijacking every single thread started to find a solution that makes the end customers/investors happy (which is important imo) with LEAVE EVIL DRAGON ALOOOONE ... as I've said before, he's a grown up and can handle this himself.

edit: I'm also fed up with people saying "you did nothing to try to take this with craigx" wtf do you want us to do? sue him? that's retarded, everybody loses. what else can I do? send him emails? believe me we all did, they just get ignored, same goes with any other forms of communication. If you don't live in the same city, you don't have access to this guy. What else can be done? nothing, accepting, as you said, he fucked us over, and look elsewhere for a solution, which ED is trying to provide. ... can we put that to rest now?

/rant

 

[WizardStan]

that's retarded, everybody loses

Everyone has already lost.  I used to advise against legal action because Craig held the whole deck and if he went under that would be the end for the remaining pre-orders.

It is now painfully obvious that he has no intention of trying to help anyway, and with EvilDragon receiving the survey results (probably as much of the information as he's ever going to get) there is no longer any incentive to keep him afloat.  Whether a lawsuit is brought against Craig or not, the only way you're going to get a Pandora is through EvilDragon.  I withdraw all previous suggestions to the contrary and state that legal action at this point would not make things any worse than they already are for the pre-orders. It has a worst case scenario of doing nothing and a best case of at least getting you some of your money back.

 

[ramboky]

edit: I'm also fed up with people saying "you did nothing to try to take this with craigx" wtf do you want us to do? sue him? that's retarded, everybody loses. what else can I do? send him emails? believe me we all did, they just get ignored, same goes with any other forms of communication. If you don't live in the same city, you don't have access to this guy. What else can be done? nothing, accepting, as you said, he fucked us over, and look elsewhere for a solution, which ED is trying to provide. ... can we put that to rest now?

/rant

Why do people keep saying "everybody loses" if Craig get's sued or shut down? What a sad, defeatist attitude. That just encourages people like Craig to be cavalier with other people's money. If Craig gets his ass whipped in court he'll be far less likely to engage in the same dishonest bullshit again because he knows people won't stand for it and he'll have to pay, even if it's just the legal fees to defend himself. Depending on how well he has protected himself legally you make even see a few dollars of your money back. I know from personal experience that class action lawsuits can work, with no risk or cost to the participants.

The only people who are really losing here are those sitting on their arses doing nothing and hoping for a handout. And as long as no one is willing to do anything about him, Craig is the only winner. 

 

[aatu]

I disagree with the notion that "... legal action at this point would not make things any worse than they already are for the pre-orders. It has a worst case scenario of doing nothing and a best case of at least getting you some of your money back".

What the legal action could do, is basically just provide revenge. Well, I'm not saying principle-driven vengeance is wrong, and if I had the time and energy, I might even take up on that. But the first obstacle that would come across is probably the fact which was also used earlier with regards to suing: it is probable that OP LTD hasn't actually done anything illegal, just bad choices. Furthermore, though I'm not familiar with UK's standard legal procedure, it might be that the losing party will have to pay not only his own legal costs, but also the opponent's. And even if I did win, there's probably nothing to gain, as OpenPandora LTD is most likely flat-broke, and will simply declare bankruptcy. Not sure how the legal costs would end up in that kind of scenario, I might end up paying my own lawyer's fees, in any case. So there's actually very small incentive to sue at all. Not to mention, I have no idea if the suers would have to physically be in the same country. I don't think it works by simply sending emails.

In summary:
Worst case scenario - Pay legal costs for both parties, waste time and energy, pay for trips to UK and back, pay for accommodation in UK
Best case scenario - Win the case via email, hopefully get your legal costs paid, waste time and energy, get non-profit revenge
Miracle scenario - Win the case via email, and for some reason OP LTD has loads of money, get your refund or a sparkling new Pandora, maybe even win the lottery

So could we stop with the legal action talk? The situation with regards to that hasn't really changed in any dramatical way.

Then again, since ramboky seems to have personal experience on class-action suits, he could explain the stages of the whole procedure. And was it a UK-based class-action suit, or in the US? And with class-action suits, there also lies the dilemma: if all the pre-orderers get together, the already small payout will be divided by the number of participants. But if OP LTD had the money in the first place, it would have delivered already. So again, it would amount to simple revenge only, would it not? All in all, isn't class-action suits usually brought against big companies, who have deep pockets? In other words, where can you find a lawyer who would be willing to drive a principle-driven case, with no forseeable payout?

 

[ramboky]

@aatu

When you gave Craig money for a Pandora you entered into a contract with him. He failed to meet his side of the contract and is refusing to make any redress so is in breach of contract, giving you legal course of action. Whether it's a class action suit or a small claims court affair, doing something makes much more sense to me than doing nothing and hoping for the generosity of others. It's not about revenge (though that's a perfectly valid motive) it's about showing Craig his actions are not acceptable in the hope he'll learn a lesson and not repeat them. At this point, why wouldn't he do it again when so many are willing to just let it go or even be an apologist for him? And that's exactly what has happened.

 

Anyway, I'm being a bit of a loud mouth here, I'm a victim of Craig 's more recent bullshit rather than his past so I don't really have a dog in this fight. I will politely excuse myself and leave it up to those that do.

 

[aatu]

I'll still respond in case others want to take up the cause:

But if the LTD doesn't have money, and if Craig hasn't actually done anything illegal himself, then the LTD company itself is legally responsible, not the person running it. And because the LTD doesn't have money, then we have nothing to gain. And therefore no sensible lawyer would take the case (unless he's paid in advance).

Also, "showing Craig his actions are not acceptable in the hope he'll learn a lesson and not repeat them"?
A whole community is pissed at him, so I think he already realized it's not acceptable. Therefore, vengeance seems like the only worthwhile motive now.

And nobody is apologizing for him. He dropped the ball, we all know that. Some individuals might feel slight sympathy for the situation he's gotten himself into, but that doesn't mean they're forgiving him.

 

[ekianjo]

But if the LTD doesn't have money, and if Craig hasn't actually done anything illegal himself, then the LTD company itself is legally responsible, not the person running it. And because the LTD doesn't have money, then we have nothing to gain. And therefore no sensible lawyer would take the case (unless he's paid in advance).

First, you dont know if the LTD does not have money. That;s what Craig has been hinting but who knows the reality since he has been blatantly lying about everything on these boards?

Second, if he indeed something illegal, don't you think everything should be made clear now ? There's abundant reasons to take legal action at this stage, and to get some money back. And even if you don't, at least you put Craig out of business and that's a GOOD thing seeing how many people he has screwed so far, and will continue to screw if he is given the opportunity to do so.

But do what you want.  

 

[THB]

Many of us tried to pull craig up on his bullshit while it was happening, remember the "Premium crap" too many white knights would come in defending him and basically kissing his arse at every turn.

Those are the people we have to thank for letting craig get away with scamming everyone and never having to face any responsibility.

Anyone who didnt see this exact thing happening when the premium pandora thing happened is an idiot. Eventually the ponzi pyramid scam had to run out.

I just feel bad that Ed is left holding the pieces.

tl:dr = white knight bitches fucked it up for everyone except craig who got away scott free.

 

[ekianjo]

the ponzi pyramid scam  

Yeah, that's a pretty good description of Craig's business plan. 

 

[ramboky]

But if the LTD doesn't have money, and if Craig hasn't actually done anything illegal himself, then the LTD company itself is legally responsible, not the person running it. And because the LTD doesn't have money, then we have nothing to gain. And therefore no sensible lawyer would take the case (unless he's paid in advance).


Also, "showing Craig his actions are not acceptable in the hope he'll learn a lesson and not repeat them"?


A whole community is pissed at him, so I think he already realized it's not acceptable. Therefore, vengeance seems like the only worthwhile motive now.


And nobody is apologizing for him. He dropped the ball, we all know that. Some individuals might feel slight sympathy for the situation he's gotten himself into, but that doesn't mean they're forgiving him.

As I explained, he has done something illegal, he took money, entered into a contract with you then breached the contract. It's as simple as that. Take him to the small claims court, it's free. You keep saying the company has no money but you really don't know that, let the courts find out how much is really there. You're just giving up without trying and making excuses.


Perhaps I worded myself badly, Craig clearly doesn't give a fuck about your opinion of him. However he does seem to like money, taking that from him, no matter whether it ends up in your pocket or a lawyers will teach him a lesson. As will having bankrupted companies associated with his and his mothers name.

Craig didn't drop the ball, he screwed you then fucked off afterwards accepting no responsibility for the mess. And I've seen plenty of people here still sticking up for Craig, very recently.

the ponzi pyramid scam  

Yeah, that's a pretty good description of Craig's business plan. 

I have a strong suspicion that's exactly where the ICP2 is headed. And where ICP2 funds went.

 

[Klumpen]

But if the LTD doesn't have money, and if Craig hasn't actually done anything illegal himself, then the LTD company itself is legally responsible, not the person running it. And because the LTD doesn't have money, then we have nothing to gain. And therefore no sensible lawyer would take the case (unless he's paid in advance).

He did something illegal, if he transferred the money for Pandora parts, refunds etc.. from LTD to his own personal account, wouldn't he?

 

[sebt3]

He did something illegal, if he transferred the money for Pandora parts, refunds etc.. from LTD to his own personal account, wouldn't he?

I dont see anything illegal per see here. Getting a monthly salary out of your company is not illegal I think...and yeah, 5 years of salary can eat quiete a lot of money (at 2000euro a month we're looking at 120000E before taxes and alike)

 

[Klumpen]

He did something illegal, if he transferred the money for Pandora parts, refunds etc.. from LTD to his own personal account, wouldn't he?

I dont see anything illegal per see here. Getting a monthly salary out of your company is not illegal I think...and yeah, 5 years of salary can eat quiete a lot of money (at 2000euro a month we're looking at 120000E before taxes and alike)

If he pays himself 2000€ a month, he would be a bigger ******* than I thought. ^^

My bosses do not earn half of it and they pay their debts (at least by now).

I can only dream of that much.

 

[Godmil]

Ponzi pyramid scam is a terrible description, for the simple reason that the actions don't fit that of a Ponzi scheme, pyramid scheme, or a scam. If any were the case Craig would have made lots of money, while the best we know is he's in a huge amount of debt.


Things turned to S@&# with Craig's plans and now he's stuck his head in the sand hoping for it to go away. That's pretty much it. Over time parts of the community seem to accumulate hyperbole on top of hyperbole until Craig's perception becomes that of an evil maniacal fraudster. Lets not let the story run away from the facts.