Trying to find a fair solution

[MrConfusion]

ED solution is somewhat fair as it allow those preorderer to actually get a pandora. Sure you'll need to pay more, but that only cover the difference between what you paid and the real production price.

But assuming you do buy the second Pandora:


A 1 GHz according to offer from ED: 416,5 (350 without vat)


A Classic from same: 119 (100 without VAT)


Makes: 535,5 you pay to ED.

Compared with: 1 Classic + 1 1GHz at shop currently: 818

I paid 298,22 of the actual product almost 5 years ago, so take that into account and you get:


-15,72 euros loss for me. That's a bit over 3 euros of loss/year. Peanuts.

If you get 2 1GHzers, you basically either break even or maybe even gain some euros.

OK, yes, ED will probably (hopefully!) be able to lower the price before I order a 1 GHz. So the calculation will get worse with time.

OK, yes, I waited some unneeded years (of the total nearly 5 years *), but that was stupidity... the next time something like this pops up I definitely will not take any part in it until its ready to ship. No matter how "community driven" and "open" it is it won't get a dime from me until it comes in a box within a couple of weeks. Lesson learned. Sorry, I'm nasty now, but that's a fact. There's quite a few Kickstarters I've already skipped due to this lesson.

But then again, ED is giving this offer "out of his own wallet" if we ignore the VAT he is losing 282,5 euros worth of potential profits with current prices, even more if you count with 2 1GHzers.

That's so  much that even if I hadn't used the VAT prices and even if ED did manage to eventually push the price a bit lower, he will still be losing for sure.

Unless I'm just tired and unable to calculate correctly (which happens a lot... ).

*)


You know, actually, I'm sure many will agree with me that the first years or two waiting were not THAT bad, it got bad when the product was available for only a few tenners more in the shops and we had to watch Youtube videos of kids who unboxed pandoras they had ordered a week before, especially the videos in which the new owner Did Not Get It... In retrospect I should have just started writing to this forum and enjoy the "community part" while the potato was still hot and juicy...

 

[Grench]

I can't see how you can see the situation as "fair" to the pre-orderer from their point of view.

I think half the problem stems from the fact that a number of pre-orderers are still expecting their unit, at the price they paid for it.

The problem is is that that your money is gone, the company you bought it from is all but gone, your pre-ordered unit(s) don't exist. The only thing you have left is an IOU note from Craig that will (probably) never be fulfilled, and a polite offer from ED for a discount in his shop.


It can't be fair to the pre-orderer, ever, unless somebody is willing to give ED a whole bunch of money for nothing, and that's pretty unlikely.

Very well stated.  Summarizes the whole issue very nicely and politely.  This one should be put as post #2 and everything else we've all said moved to a closed 'discussion' thread.  pmprog has stated the only truly relevant bits.  The rest is raving - mine included.

 

[Binky]

Perhaps the clearest way of doing things (not necessarily fairest) would a be a simple announcement that:

• Craig's shop is not (currently) delivering pandoras to preorderers
• Anyone re-ordering their Pandora from Dragonbox.de is entitled to a £<ED's profit margin> discount on presentation of their gbax order number, and a guarantee that it will arrive within x days.

This would make the difference between the shops obvious to those who haven't kept a keen eye on events here.

 

[WizardStan]

Strictly speaking, "fair" does not mean you get what you want, fair means that you operate within the bounds of certain rules. The absolutely most fair thing that can be done is for ED to stop trying to help and all remaining pre-orders need to hound Craig directly, just like everyone who came before them had to. Does this mean that Craig will probably take GBAX into bankruptcy? Probably, which means 500 people will not get their Pandora. Does that suck? Yes. Is it fair? Absolutely, unfortunately. You can play a perfectly fair game and still lose. EvilDragon is actually doing unfair things (unfair in the pre-orders favour) by taking on this much responsibility.

Do I think EvilDragon should just give up? No, he's doing a good thing and trying his best but there are physical limits to what can be accomplished, sooner or later something will have to give and at the current rate there will with no doubt be a lot of people that do not receive their Pandora. Is that fair? Maybe, maybe not. If ED is changing the rules and gives everyone the same chance to upgrade then yes, it is fair. If not everyone has the same chance then it isn't. The way it is now he's giving everyone the same chance, so it is fair.

Do I think the remaining pre-orders should stop complaining? No again. You are complaining to the wrong person though. You are not entitled to a Pandora from ED, that is a bonus. You are entitled to a Pandora from Craig. If you have complaints, register them with Craig. Complaining to EvilDragon simply because he listens and Craig doesn't isn't fair and doesn't actually solve anything, it's like complaining to Target that Walmart screwed you over.

That is actually a pretty apt example. Company XYZ produces a product, says a limitted run will be available at Walmart and Target in 6 months if you put in a pre-order now to save your spot. Walmart is closer, so you go there. 6 months later Walmart only gets half as many as they promised. Target clears their pre-orders and continues to sell, working directly with Company XYZ such that they are now virtually indistinguishable. People are contacting Walmart but getting nowhere, so they contact Target and say "you're selling the exact same product, you should give me one. I only went to Walmart because it was closer, I didn't know they would screw me over like this". If this were literal you'd be laughed out of Target and told never to return. Instead you've got Target actually taking some sympathy and trying to take care of Walmart's customers as well. Company XYZ (now a subsidiary of Target) would be perfectly happy to continue supplying Walmart with product at cost, but Walmart has basically abandoned them entirely. This isn't Target's fault, it isn't Company XYZ's fault, and there isn't anything that either of them can be expected to do, but they're doing it anyway.

 

[MrConfusion]

ED, can you please (please, pretty please with sugar on top) finalize/conclude/decide/whatever this thing soon after Gamescon?

(I sent you a message via the form in your shop a while back, but I was actually expecting you'd be pretty overloaded until after the event.)

 

[ShleeDragon]

Some people brought up the attitude of how Craig's pre-orderers are treated as some sort of "lesser people".

If EvilDragon decided to never help Craig's Preorders.... what kind of conversation would we be having?

Everybody wants a Pandora for the preorders (Don't bring up this second class citizen tripe).... but everybody is focused on "ways to get the preorders their units that don't include Craig"... Craig is NEVER factored into the conversation.

Every single person in this thread including myself is working on the factor of... how can we do this without craig..... and that is sad and covered in some seriously selfish reasoning.. A psychologist could write a PHD on how quickly people have forgotten and almost forgiven Craig.

Where is the outrage at the source of the problem? Because I don't see any... Is that because people KNOW craig will never help them? or they are looking for somebody elses throat to place their hands?

 

[moxie]

I think it is just a pragmatic reasoning. Has everyone "forgotten" about Craig? No. People have just written him off. They've done the outrage thing already, and are now moving to what could be the practical solutions.

 

[ShleeDragon]

I think it is just a pragmatic reasoning. Has everyone "forgotten" about Craig? No. People have just written him off. They've done the outrage thing already, and are now moving to what could be the practical solutions.

Practical is giving up. Trying to hold on to something and clawing at every opportunity... is unhealthy

 

[ekianjo]

almost forgiven Craig.

Yeah, talk about Stockholm's Syndrome. Never seen so much sympathy for a dick in my whole life.  

 

[ShleeDragon]

sympathy for a dick

Awesome band name. 

 

[aatu]

Regarding "second citizen tripe":
I'm not talking about attitude from ED. ED is trying to help, we all know that. I'm talking about the attitude of the community itself. Or does somebody disagree? Especially during these recent threads, there's a distinct "you're not welcome here" or "burn the ****ers" -feeling I'm picking up.

Regarding Craig:
It's not like anyone has forgiven him. It's just that the doctrine the whole forum has been chanting for at least a year now has taken its effect. You know, the "You can't do anything, as Craig will simply declare bankruptcy". Actually, I'm quite surprised that it's now (during these few recent threads) becoming RECOMMENDED that we take that particular action we were adviced not to do. It's not like the situation has changed with regards to that, he will probably still declare bankruptcy. Why are you guys now recommending we do this?

Spoiler

And yeah, some people will exemplify "The 5 Stages of Loss and Grief" :
1. Denial and Isolation
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

I can't be the only who has noticed this...?
(I've been jumping up and down on that list, myself )

 

[PokeParadox]

Regarding "second citizen tripe":


I'm not talking about attitude from ED. ED is trying to help, we all know that. I'm talking about the attitude of the community itself. Or does somebody disagree? Especially during these recent threads, there's a distinct "you're not welcome here" or "burn the ****ers" -feeling I'm picking up.

This might be true with some individuals, but I assure you most of us want a resolution to the preorder mess.

What I'm against are the pointless arguments which solve nothing - we need positivity to try and solve this together. Just finger pointing and assigning blame won't solve anything and has been done to death in countless threads already.

 

[pmprog]

Regarding "second citizen tripe":

I'm not talking about attitude from ED. ED is trying to help, we all know that. I'm talking about the attitude of the community itself. Or does somebody disagree? Especially during these recent threads, there's a distinct "you're not welcome here" or "burn the ****ers" -feeling I'm picking up.

No, I see it every now and then, but what I also see is a lot pre-orderers asking the same questions or making the same comments (see the "but there'd be no pandora without pre-orders" line), then frustration by the other members of the community having to repeat the whole conversation ad nauseam.

Regarding Craig:

It's not like anyone has forgiven him. It's just that the doctrine the whole forum has been chanting for at least a year now has taken its effect. You know, the "You can't do anything, as Craig will simply declare bankruptcy". Actually, I'm quite surprised that it's now (during these few recent threads) becoming RECOMMENDED that we take that particular action we were adviced not to do. It's not like the situation has changed with regards to that, he will probably still declare bankruptcy. Why are you guys now recommending we do this?

Actually, I think the thing that's changed the most is that Craig no longer visits these boards (or at least, we're not aware of it). Where as he would probably see your post, even if he didn't acknowledge it, he is now just most likely ignoring the situation completely.
Loudly knocking on his door with a solicitor will most likely get his attention back, but it probably won't help you and the other pre-orderers getting a Pandora. I'm not even sure if a black mark will appear next to Craig's name, which would stop him potentially doing this again (though it sounds like the iCP2 is already running down the same route)

 

[xcen]

well yes, let's all focus on hating craig and figuring out ways to make him pay for his crimes! That's constructive, right? Punish the guy, we'll all feel better!

Plus starting an international class action law suit should be really easy right? And we all have lawyers working for free that will take up this hopeless case with no chance of positive outcome, right?

Even better! Let's all write him hatemail and send him dead animals through the mail! that'll fix things right up, right.... RIGHT???!

You're annoying the fuck out of me shleedragon -_-

 

[Godmil]

Yeah, let's all try to focus on the positives. :community hug:

 

[aatu]

Well, added some suggestions to the other thread. Though I think they're probably things that have already been thought of, or maybe even tried and failed ideas. In any case, let's see how things pan out...

 

[ramboky]

well yes, let's all focus on hating craig and figuring out ways to make him pay for his crimes! That's constructive, right? Punish the guy, we'll all feel better!

Plus starting an international class action law suit should be really easy right? And we all have lawyers working for free that will take up this hopeless case with no chance of positive outcome, right?

Even better! Let's all write him hatemail and send him dead animals through the mail! that'll fix things right up, right.... RIGHT???!

You're annoying the fuck out of me shleedragon -_-

People who are happy to bend over and take it rather than actually doing something about a weasel like Craig annoy the fuck out of me.

It's the way things have panned out with the Pandora that has led Craig to repeat this whole fiasco with the ICP2. 2000+ more people left with money missing from their wallets and no idea when the fuck Craig is actually going to deliver, or if he ever will. Perhaps if he'd actually been confronted, rather than mollycoddled and constantly bailed out he might have learned a lesson. Instead, the only thing Craig has learned here is that if he screws up other people will step in to clean up his mess, with absolutely no repercussions for him.

 

[ShleeDragon]

well yes, let's all focus on hating craig and figuring out ways to make him pay for his crimes! That's constructive, right? Punish the guy, we'll all feel better!

Plus starting an international class action law suit should be really easy right? And we all have lawyers working for free that will take up this hopeless case with no chance of positive outcome, right?

Even better! Let's all write him hatemail and send him dead animals through the mail! that'll fix things right up, right.... RIGHT???!

You're annoying the fuck out of me shleedragon -_-

People who are happy to bend over and take it rather than actually doing something about a weasel like Craig annoy the fuck out of me.

It's the way things have panned out with the Pandora that has led Craig to repeat this whole fiasco with the ICP2. 2000+ more people left with money missing from their wallets and no idea when the fuck Craig is actually going to deliver, or if he ever will. Perhaps if he'd actually been confronted, rather than mollycoddled and constantly bailed out he might have learned a lesson. Instead, the only thing Craig has learned here is that if he screws up other people will step in to clean up his mess, with absolutely no repercussions for him.

Want me to annoy you a little more? because I'm going to.. without actually meaning too.


(if you are a preorder) - You got boned years ago and you are willing to attach yourself to ANY kind of resolution to get the preorder you paid for... but apparently the realistic option is forbidden to consider.

1) Accept Craig boned you.. walk away


2) Feel angry and kill your sense of entitlement. (From ED)

3) Find some middle ground and accept the incredible offer that ED is going to offer the preorders.

4) Finish this Saga!

I think ED needs to hit the ejection seat and get away from the preorders... and it looks like he's going to sooner than later.

There are 500 people who were lied too and lost the money they preordered.. It's about time they considered their options. Walking away or buying one of EDs sweetheart deals. Those are the only two options.

 

[ShleeDragon]

I'll leave this topic alone because my views are pretty clear.. I love the Pandora and I hope everybody gets one

 

[ekianjo]

>>>>>Instead, the only thing Craig has learned here is that if he screws up other people will step in to clean up his mess, with absolutely no repercussions for him.


Clearly on point here. Thats what i have been saying for like forever. You want Craig to be adult and make him face his responsibilities? Stop wiping the shit from his ass. Let it rot until he does not like the smell of it.


If you preorders guys had taken things seriously with Craig maybe there would be less people screwed up by Icp2 and 1Ghz preorders. Doing nothing about it makes the snake oil merchant continue his trade.