Trying to find a fair solution

[rohezal]

Can I actually get my Pandora if I pay 100 Euro?

Yes

Is this an actual option now?

Not right now, but ED stated it. The boards are refurbished but the nubs, cases, screens are new. The board is free, the screen, case, etc costs around 100€. So the 100€ you pay are for the parts except the mainboard. Building the Pandora is done for free by ED. Ask ED when he can do it. I don't know how many refurbished CC boards ED got in his store, so I guess it is a limited offer.

I don't care what model of Pandora I get, but I'll pay 100 Euro to ge

Very good choice, I think this is the fastest way (except paying 300€ for a ghz unit) to get a Pandora.

 

[God Ginrai]

Just wanted to stop in here to give my two cents. I voted "Yes, I'm in Craig's queue." because I was one of the few who actually got his Pandora from Craig back when the Pandoras actually started shipping. The only thing "owed" to me by Craig is my TV-Out cable.

First of all, let me say this:

@EvilDragon I really appreciate that you are doing this for the pre-orderers who got shafted by Craig. I think it's a great thing to do. Don't let yourself get bothered by any of the hot tempers in this thread.

@ekianjo I also would like to say something to you. (bolding so you notice your name)

Trip's original post was speaking out against the people who have been trying to convince EvilDragon to completely abandon the pre-orderers. He is simply saying that those who are saying "fuck the pre-orderers" (which honestly is exactly what anyone who is suggesting EvilDragon do nothing about it is saying) are not helping the community by taking this stance. And honestly, he is right.

The Pandora exists because of the work of EvilDragon and Co. But it just as much exists because it has a vibrant community that has supported it since it was conceived. While it is certainly true that the Craig's pre-orderers did not order from EvilDragon, it is equally true that they are nonetheless part of the same community that has supported and made this device what it is. It is in EvilDragon's best interest to support these users in the hopes that they will continue to remain in the community and help it grow. Abandoning them does nothing but breed ill will and shrink the userbase for this device. For an already niche device, this is not the way to go. Especially if EvilDragon is hoping to have a userbase to buy a successor to the Pandora.

While I realize that this is Craig's mess, it does this community no good to punish those who have been waiting in an attempt to punish Craig. The people who have been suffering will lose all hope and leave the community, and Craig would likely still not learn his lesson.

I realize that you are trying to think about EvilDragon and his product when you said what you have said in this topic. However, you need to realize that we need a strong community in order for EvilDragon to make money and create a new device. Nothing good comes from completely abandoning members of the community, whether he is legally responsible or not. I hope that you will come to see this and can continue discussion in this topic in a civil manner.

-God Ginrai

 

[ekianjo]

I realize that you are trying to think about EvilDragon and his product when you said what you have said in this topic. However, you need to realize that we need a strong community in order for EvilDragon to make money and create a new device. Nothing good comes from completely abandoning members of the community, whether he is legally responsible or not. I hope that you will come to see this and can continue discussion in this topic in a civil manner.

First, I fail to see where I was not civil. I may be direct sometimes, but you will hard a hard time to find me getting out of line.

I think, in an ideal world, what you say makes perfect sense, but you seem to be forgetting some elementary business facts:

- ED has still not made any money with the Pandora

- ED will continue not making money with it as long as the profits go to Craig's pre-orders for which he has, legally, no responsibility

- Not making money is not good because of several reasons:

a) the price of the Pandora will remain high forever because of these preorders to support, going against all trends observed for electronics out there. 

b ) it potentially delays and reduces the investment that ED can put in a Pandora successor

c) it potentially raises the price of the Pandora successor if this preorder thing drags long enough to carry over that timeline too. 

- You seem to think that providing Pandoras to old preorders abandoned by Craig is a good thing because it will bring business back to ED in the end. Well, I could just call you BS on that, because you have zero data to support that, and the fact that the Pandora successor is likely to be as expensive, if not more, than the current 1Ghz Pandora, is highly indicative that the people who paid 200 or 300 dollars in the first place are not going to go to that kind of pricing, especially seeing how some are reluctant to shell any more cash to get an upgraded Pandora. So, yes in theory, but I don't believe much will occur in reality in terms of added sales there. Business-wise this is a dangerous bet to make.

- Besides, most of the original preorders bought one because it was sold as an emulation device more than anything else, while now it's clearly evolving towards being a mini-computer that can do eveything. This is not the same target at all. 

- I don't see how ED not supporting Craig's preorders is going to shrink the userbase. These are currently non-users. They will remain non-users if they do not get any Pandora. How is that shrinking anything ? Shrinking != not growing. Get your logic right. 

- and I still don't agree with the fact that ED not helping pre-orders is just like leaving them in the dust. Have you forgotten about the numerous donations made by the community ? This has nothing to do with ED and several dozens of pandora have been already shipped in this way. So, you'd better mention these generous donors when answering, especially when you use "the community" every two lines in your post. 

- It's not about punishing these pre-orders, it's about letting the pre-orders decide what they want to do. As mentioned before, you could assign Craig to a small claims court in England and that does not require you to hire a lawyer or something. You can rely on donations. You can take the offer from ED and shell some more cash to get a new Pandora at minimum price. However, preorders who are asking to get a pandora for free from ED are punishing everyone else and future buyers of the Pandora, in case you did not notice, for the reasons stated above. Putting Craig's burden on the shoulders of ED is actually resulting in no-growth of the user base because the Pandora selling price will remain high and unfortunately too high for many people considering buying one. So when you talk about punishment, you need to see the future users waiting at the door to buy one as well. They exist, too.  

- In the end this is up to ED and all of the above is my opinion only. ED will probably decide to support as many people as he can, until the end, but i believe this attitude, while very charitable, could be toxic in a way for the Pandora and the future one. There's just a time you have to realize things are out of your hand and you cannot hope to make everyone happy because there's a limited amount of money on the table. ED's running a business, not the Red Cross or something. But again, it's his decision, we'll see what he decides to do in the end. 

 

[Mr_Loon]

@ ED :

Good to hear you are still in contact with Craig.

The next time you chat / correspond can you ask him :

1) What, if anything, he intends to do to help the situation in terms of unfulfilled pre orders with OP Ltd?

2) How many people have unfulfilled pre orders but did not respond to the survey?

From my perspective if we don't have answers to those questions it is very difficult to make any sort of plan to remedy the situation.

 

[HelenF]

2) How many people have unfulfilled pre orders but did not respond to the survey?

Yes, including people who asked for a refund and haven't got it yet. People have un-cancelled in the past when refunds did not appear.

 

[EvilDragon]

I just won't get any replies, as usual, when i ask any questions like that.

 

[Mr_Loon]

I just won't get any replies, as usual, when i ask any questions like that.

In that case add the following to question 1 : You are of course under no obligation to respond to this question, but if you choose not to respond within 2 months (or timeframe of EDs choice) I'll assume that you intend to do nothing and advise OP Ltd's customers of this decision.


If Craig has taken the quite simply shocking decision to totally abandon his customers then, if I were in their shoes, I'd be straight down to the small claims court.

Edit : Please note that this is not intended to be a 'punishment' for Craig, unless meeting your responsibilities is considered a punishment these days. I like Craig, unlike some here I don't see being a terrible communicator / project manager / bean counter as being a mortal sin. I, perhaps foolishly, still believe that Craig does want to help with his customers who are still waiting for Pandoras which they have paid for.

It is my strong suspicion that Craig does not want to declare OP Ltd bankrupt, if he did then his reputation as a business man would take a further hit and he'd have to carefully account for all monies raised by OP Ltd. He'd have to clarify what happened with the money raised for the dev fund, what happened to the 1 Ghz pre order money, why he did not seek compensation from Circuit Co. etc. If there is one thing I do know about Craig it's that he has a near pathological dislike of providing clear and unambiguous information, it's my hope that if he were presented with the option of declaring bankruptcy or making some genuine commitment to help his customers then he'd choose the latter.

I really can't see how any sensible / reasonable plan can be made without knowing the answer to the 2 questions posed above.

 

[God Ginrai]

I realize that you are trying to think about EvilDragon and his product when you said what you have said in this topic. However, you need to realize that we need a strong community in order for EvilDragon to make money and create a new device. Nothing good comes from completely abandoning members of the community, whether he is legally responsible or not. I hope that you will come to see this and can continue discussion in this topic in a civil manner.

 First, I fail to see where I was not civil. I may be direct sometimes, but you will hard a hard time to find me getting out of line.

It was mainly a matter of your tone in a lot of your posts, as well as some things like your sarcasm that was essentially chastising a mod for telling people not to make accusations that they could not prove. While you had not truly been uncivil yet, I had a feeling that you were tending towards that direction. This is why I had made that comment. Maybe I jumped the gun a bit with that comment, but I would rather prevent it beforehand than have to make such comments after the damage is already done.

- You seem to think that providing Pandoras to old preorders abandoned by Craig is a good thing because it will bring business back to ED in the end. Well, I could just call you BS on that, because you have zero data to support that, and the fact that the Pandora successor is likely to be as expensive, if not more, than the current 1Ghz Pandora, is highly indicative that the people who paid 200 or 300 dollars in the first place are not going to go to that kind of pricing, especially seeing how some are reluctant to shell any more cash to get an upgraded Pandora. So, yes in theory, but I don't believe much will occur in reality in terms of added sales there. Business-wise this is a dangerous bet to make.

 Honestly, you have no data to prove that EvilDragon's plan to support the pre-orderers will not bring business back, so that's a moot point. As for the price issue, many of the people in the pre-order queue were part of the original vote for "more expensive but more powerful or less expensive but less powerful" and voted "more expensive but more powerful". So, I doubt that they would be turned away by high prices on a Pandora 2, as long as it offered features and power that are appealing to them.

- Besides, most of the original preorders bought one because it was sold as an emulation device more than anything else, while now it's clearly evolving towards being a mini-computer that can do eveything. This is not the same target at all.

This is actually completely false. The initial community for the Pandora when it was first conceived was about 50% homebrew and 50% emulation, with a lot of people who liked both. However, a large while before the Pandora pre-orders started, it started to get a lot of press as an up-and-coming UMPC, bringing a large UMPC crowd. There were a substantial number of the original pre-orderers who ordered the Pandora with the intention of getting a UMPC.

Also, The Pandora has always been marketed as a UMPC gaming device, and I would actually go so far as to say that since EvilDragon has taken over that the sales focus has dipped more towards emulation. The Website didn't used to have a list of all of the systems that could be emulated by the Pandora. Now it has a list of systems, emulators for that system, and even nice pictures of the system so you can remember what it was.

- I don't see how ED not supporting Craig's preorders is going to shrink the userbase. These are currently non-users. They will remain non-users if they do not get any Pandora. How is that shrinking anything ? Shrinking != not growing. Get your logic right.

Trip is and has been part of this community. He does not have his Pandora yet. There are many more like him. Many would leave if they were abandoned. This would shrink the community. The community is what has supported this device.

- and I still don't agree with the fact that ED not helping pre-orders is just like leaving them in the dust. Have you forgotten about the numerous donations made by the community ? This has nothing to do with ED and several dozens of pandora have been already shipped in this way. So, you'd better mention these generous donors when answering, especially when you use "the community" every two lines in your post.

Of course. I never said that EvilDragon or the donors have not been helping. What I am saying is that leaving this unfinished will not help things. It is better to at least offer some sort of solution as EvilDragon is trying to do. It is then up to the pre-orderers to choose if they will accept this solution. As EvilDragon said in his initial post: they are free to continue to wait instead, but he can't guarantee they will see any benefit out of it. By doing what is proposed in the initial topic, EvilDragon will give himself a way to help the pre-orderers and help himself to be done with it. If he just dropped them now after doing what he has to help other pre-orderers, it would look akin to going up to 2 homeless people and feeding the one on the left while saying "Sorry" to the one on the right.

However, preorders who are asking to get a pandora for free from ED are punishing everyone else and future buyers of the Pandora, in case you did not notice, for the reasons stated above. Putting Craig's burden on the shoulders of ED is actually resulting in no-growth of the user base because the Pandora selling price will remain high and unfortunately too high for many people considering buying one. So when you talk about punishment, you need to see the future users waiting at the door to buy one as well. They exist, too.

I certainly agree that demanding a free device from EvilDragon is something that should not be done. However, this topic is not about getting free devices, and only 5 people have voted "No", while 26 people who are in Craig's queue have voted that EvilDragon's proposed solution is acceptable. So, I hope you'll excuse me for not noticing a plethora of people in this topic demanding their free devices.

But again, it's his decision, we'll see what he decides to do in the end.

Yup.

-God Ginrai

 

[Weevil]

I've voted for 'It's a fair solution.' and I'm in Craig's que. Don't have income to spend so no Pandora for me in 2013 at least, still I appreciate very much your efforts EvilDragon & community. Even though I'm pissed at the way Craig handled things and (for now) loss of my pre-order money, I feel at this time a fair solution would be one where you can get rid of this burden you've taken on and can focus on Pandora2/whatever might come next.

 

[chetc]

I'd really like to know when this offer will become official, so that I can place my order with Ed.

 

[MatrixZeroOne]

I'm an original Pre-Order customer, and have lurked the forums from the start, and I cannot fault ED in his dedication to a system and community that he helped form and more recently, saved from oblivion. I can fully understand the dilemma and situation he is in and the hard choices that will have to be made.

Back when I first discovered the Pandora, I was in a financial position to pre-order and donate into the development funds. In anticipation I also purchased multiple SD cards, dongles, cables etc. as I fully intended to utilise both its emulation (Amiga 600!!) and its umpc (IT tutor) capabilities fully.

Today, I know of all the problems, failings and decisions that people, companies and supply chains have made which has brought us to where we are, and if I was still in the financial position I was at the beginning, I wouldn't hesitate to support the device, community and ED. But I'm not.. Nowhere near.

Real life has taken its toll, and to be honest I don't regret life’s changes, but I just don't have the ability to give any more money to this cause.

Do I believe?

 - I should get a device... Yes, I did pay for one, and a small part of me still wants to hang in there.

 - That ED owes me this device... No. Craig was my supplier.

 - That I will ever get my device... Sadly no, the laws of supply and demand are not in EDs favour.

 - That I would take something as an exchange.. Yes, if a voucher or device exchange was offered.

I am at that point where I feel I just have to write the whole affair off, and chalk it up to experience. If there is enough of a communication channel still open that either a refund, or potential court action would have any kind of effect then I would take that chance. But with the way Craig has abandoned and walked away from this situation, I don't feel that it would make any difference.

Sadly, this has also sullied my position to ever take a chance on devices or possibilities like this ever again. And the geek in me hates that feeling.

Thanks to all who have put their time, effort, blood, sweat, tears and money into something unique and special.

Good luck with your future endevours ED.

 

[ekianjo]

This is actually completely false. The initial community for the Pandora when it was first conceived was about 50% homebrew and 50% emulation, with a lot of people who liked both.

I noticed that I forgot to reply to your message. So here goes. ->

Maybe this was false then, but look at the software offering. It was mainly games and emulators until the past year when a lot more people started porting more serious, non-gaming stuff. I could hardly do the same with my Pandora one year ago.

As for the price issue, many of the people in the pre-order queue were part of the original vote for "more expensive but more powerful or less expensive but less powerful" and voted "more expensive but more powerful".

Yeah, but they were nowhere ready to pay the price of the 1Ghz unit. You see a lot of people saying this is just too expensive nowadays. Before the 1Ghz time, I can't recall seeing so many complaints about the price.

However, this topic is not about getting free devices, and only 5 people have voted "No", while 26 people who are in Craig's queue have voted that EvilDragon's proposed solution is acceptable. So, I hope you'll excuse me for not noticing a plethora of people in this topic demanding their free devices.

Maybe they are not "many", but they are a very vocal minority then!

Maybe I jumped the gun a bit with that comment, but I would rather prevent it beforehand than have to make such comments after the damage is already done.

Don't worry I never go into ad hominem or stuff like that. I like to debate with reason more than emotions.

Trip is and has been part of this community. He does not have his Pandora yet. There are many more like him. Many would leave if they were abandoned. This would shrink the community. The community is what has supported this device.

Again, you said user-base. Not community base. A community member who has no Pandora is NOT a user.

 

[God Ginrai]

This is actually completely false. The initial community for the Pandora when it was first conceived was about 50% homebrew and 50% emulation, with a lot of people who liked both.

 I noticed that I forgot to reply to your message. So here goes. ->

Maybe this was false then, but look at the software offering. It was mainly games and emulators until the past year when a lot more people started porting more serious, non-gaming stuff. I could hardly do the same with my Pandora one year ago.

Actually, most of the first stuff that the Pandora had was a lot of productivity stuff and some emulators. I remember at the beginning I was always looking forward to what sebt3 would port because he would port homebrew games, which was a change from the 5 browsers and tons of productivity apps people had ported first. Sure, we had emulators for SNES, Genesis, and N64. But SNES and Genesis were there because they were quick ports of good software by developers who were involved with the Pandora for a long time. (Notaz, Squidge) As for N64, that's because Ari64 was challenging himself with a Beagleboard.

As for the price issue, many of the people in the pre-order queue were part of the original vote for "more expensive but more powerful or less expensive but less powerful" and voted "more expensive but more powerful".

 Yeah, but they were nowhere ready to pay the price of the 1Ghz unit. You see a lot of people saying this is just too expensive nowadays. Before the 1Ghz time, I can't recall seeing so many complaints about the price.

That's because it has gotten to be years later, and people expect more power for that kind of price. Especially when they know that the original units were capable of clocking to close to 1GHz. In the case of a successor, we can expect to have sourced parts that are new and with power that warrants the price.

Trip is and has been part of this community. He does not have his Pandora yet. There are many more like him. Many would leave if they were abandoned. This would shrink the community. The community is what has supported this device.

 Again, you said user-base. Not community base. A community member who has no Pandora is NOT a user.

If you are going to try to catch me on semantics, technically they are users because they already paid for the product.

-God Ginrai

 

[Binky]

technically they are users because they already paid for the product.

No, they're customers.

Reads/Posts on forum or IRC --> Community member

Has paid for pandora --> Customer

Uses pandora --> User

 

[God Ginrai]

technically they are users because they already paid for the product.

No, they're customers.
Reads/Posts on forum or IRC --> Community member

Has paid for pandora --> Customer

Uses pandora --> User

You got me there. Customer and User are synonymous in most cases, so userbase was what came to my mind at the time. My initial intent was the customer-base, so it doesn't change what I meant.

-God Ginrai

 

[ShleeDragon]

ED: I hate to be this guy... but are you are looking at this upcoming email to the preorders in a end game kind of way?

I mean, Are you going to offer them a solution and tell them if they don't accept the offer.. they will need to contact Craig to continue their negotiation for a unit. Allowing you to move on?

Meaning, the community won't forget about them and can continue with donations.... but you will be able to move on personally with your grand plans.

 

[God Ginrai]

ED: I hate to be this guy... but are you are looking at this upcoming email to the preorders in a end game kind of way?

I mean, Are you going to offer them a solution and tell them if they don't accept the offer.. they will need to contact Craig to continue their negotiation for a unit. Allowing you to move on?

Meaning, the community won't forget about them and can continue with donations.... but you will be able to move on personally with your grand plans.

EvilDragon already answered that in his first post, didn't he?

I am well aware, that not everyone can afford to upgrade.

Thus, I'd like to make the following offer:

• The above update is optional and can be done anytime. However, I can't promise you that you will ever get a Pandora without the upgrade. Therefore, if it's possible to update, please do so. You will really help a lot with that.
• If you DON'T upgrade, whatever you chose in the survey will be taken into account. There are community members donating into the preorder queue. That money will be used to help people who simply cannot afford to upgrade. However, it could still take years!
• In case a Pandora successor will ever be released (I hope so, but it's unknown right now) and you didn't get your Pandora until then, I'll give you a discounted price for it.

-God Ginrai

 

[hosant]

Ed, you are clearly a nice guy. Also, I know that you are technically doing this out of good faith, since you are not legally obligated of fulfilling Craigs orders.

However, as an original Craig pre-orderer, I'm extremely reluctant of keep throwing money at this in hope of recovering my investment. I suppose that the €100+ Eur option also requires the shipments costs (do VAT taxes applies too?), which are due to be significant (I payed Craig $70 for that...). and paying for an upgrade is simply not an option, the price is simply too high.

So, I ask you this, which guarantees we have if take on the options, specially the first one? Since I'm not dropping a cent more for more "estimations".

 

[ekianjo]

My initial intent was the customer-base, so it doesn't change what I meant.

NO, I don't think that's what you meant - check your original post again. You clearly mentioned "user base shrinking", and you kept at keeping this wording even after I mentioned to you it does not make sense.

People who don't have Pandora are not users, not matter if they paid for it or not, so not giving them a Pandora does not shrink the user base at all.

 

[ShleeDragon]

I've always seen his reply as vague.