True or False


Sorry for the broken Links - Fixed them


also Sorry for my misspelling. I was trying to say: Please read the posts in the Links above.

Ok, so then the "facts" in there are the same as you posted in the first post in this thread, which already has been debunked by several people? Which fall under the same criticism that I've already pointed out - That you are taking things out of context. When someone like Craig says "We believe that we can build 70 units in a day" or something like that, you strip out the "believe" and make a fact out of it. When, in the course of the thread, someone asks "How many boards do you think you'll have next week?" and the reply is "About 500", then you read the reply as a fact and disregard the "do you think" in the question.


This is no promises. This is predictions. It is you that turn them into "promises", by disregarding words like "estimate", "believe", "think", "If nothing goes wrong". You create false facts for yourself, and want to hold OPT responsible for them. Don't do that. It will not help in getting you an exact queue place, and even if your Pandora hasn't shipped in two weeks, no promise will have been broken except the one in your own mind.


I'm sorry if I come off a bit raw-sounding, but this madness has to stop. I thought we had seen the last of it when the machines started shipping again, but apparently no such luck.
^ This. I'm tired of repeating, and all out of long posts because it is quite obvious to me that if someone cannot see fault in themselves or there opinions, then it is impossible to prove them wrong. If someone wants to believe blue is red, then its red. No ifs, ands, or buts. Keep rereading the threads till you understand I guess. There is no sense in beating a dead horse. Before you take that literally... Google it! Then form and educated opinion.
 
here can I read this "codex of open source" you are referring to?Or is it a compilation of your personal experiences
Just google for Code of Conduct or H-Foos in relation to Open source and you come up whit tones of Results so no this is not only based on personal experience.
I tried googling those phrases, but didn't find anything pertaining to rules for developing FOSS. Maybe my googling skills just suck. I would be interested in seeing such a list of rules though. If you could post a link OldJim, that'd be much appreciated.


I don't know how anyone can be offended at the premium pandora option. Everyone who buys a premium helps you get yours faster as well. Your condition is only _improved_ by people buying premiums. It's like if someone said "I'm going to cut the roller coaster line, but bribe the attendants to make it go faster so you wait half as long." Then you said "STFU NOOB. I want to wait the WHOLE 3 hours but still be the 3458th person to ride instead of the 3558th"
 
I can see that this is not leading any where.


People are just way to impulsive around this place.


Not willing to take any critical comments.

Oh, the old "I was right all along, you just can't handle the truth" gambit. Ok, so it worked - I got suckered in for another bout.


Critical comments are all right. I've found that critical comments are sometimes well received, sometimes not, depending on the day. However: "I have invented a Deadline, and if you don't follow that you are Liars!" is not a critical comment. It is madness. And "If I don't get my pandora in two weeks you are liars, unless you tell me exactly when it really will arrive!!!" is neither a critical comment nor a clever way to trick OPT into revealing their carefully hidden, secret order list. It is just silly.


I would be impulsive if I reacted like this the first time this happened. This is, however, more like the 486th thread, give or take a dozen, that do variations of the same things - Trying to divine the hidden thoughts and motives of OPT by combining vague tweets with unrelated forum posts. There is no hidden motive here, but if you look long enough on something you will find something - Usually your own motive.


Actually, Dan Brown should be alerted. He could write something like "The Forum Code: The secrets of Pandora". Would be a bestseller, it would.

I guess I missed my goal:

...Once again a promise... 10 Weeks is realistic ... OP-TEAM ... keep a Deadline...make my calculations...give the OP-TEAM ...time... I'm very disappointed, I hoped...making realistic Deadlines.

Yes. You missed the goal of making OPT commit to your calculations of a deadline. You repeat stuff about deadlines and promises. Now, go find a post where Craig or ED says, with no mincing of words, that "I promise that the last pandora in batch 1 will be done in ten weeks time" or "The deadline for batch 1 is in ten weeks". If so, you have a point. If you can't find that post (and you know you can't), you must realise that it is all in your mind.
 
here can I read this "codex of open source" you are referring to?Or is it a compilation of your personal experiences
Just google for Code of Conduct or H-Foos in relation to Open source and you come up whit tones of Results so no this is not only based on personal experience.
I tried googling those phrases, but didn't find anything pertaining to rules for developing FOSS. Maybe my googling skills just suck. I would be interested in seeing such a list of rules though. If you could post a link OldJim, that'd be much appreciated.

I tried to google "pandora 2 month joke", but all I got that was relevant was from the boards and the unofficial blog. I was a bit disappointed with that, really.
 
I call troll.


If this person really wants to cancel then let them, there is nothing for all of us to defend. All of the aforementioned 'reasons' seem to be due to a lack of reading and reason. The OPT has made their position very clear, and if you don't like it then cancel your order. The rest of us will wait because we believe in the OPT. We have all been here for many months and seen all of the videos, pictures, and writings of the team. And a vast majority of us are coming to a very different conclusion than this person. I wonder why? Is it because this person has some 'amazing insight' into the production of the Pandora, or that they have some massive secret? Or is it possible that the majority of people (who all seem intelligent and competent enough) are trying to explain a point, which has already been evaluated and approved to the 4000+ people who are continuing to wait, to someone who refuses to listen to reason?


Are we wrong, or is this person wrong? Does this person seem to want to resolve their issue? Or stir up the forum?


I call troll.
 
I really wish that they can reestablish there reputation of the 2 Month Joke Project.

Two months might be a joke to many people, but to others it is a badge of how long we have patiently waited... won't continue in case I jinx :p
 
Ok once again sorry for raising a riot like this. That was not my intention.


Im also sorry if because of my language barrier things sounded more harsh then I wanted it to.


The only thing I was trying to do is to show may way of understanding the Posts that the OP-TEAM made.


This Post was a reflection of my Point of View based on my understanding of the News that was Posted.


If a critical look at the Posts made by Craig is not welcome here. Well then so it bee.


I'm sure that I'm not the only one out there that has the same point of view as I tried to reflect in this post.


I myself don't like it if people just think critical thoughts and not Share them.


How can you set things right I people dont give you the chance to do so.


In Switzerland we have a saying: "Die Faust nicht im Sack machen"


I don't know how this Translates - And since my English seams to be so poor I will just let you guys use BableFish as recommended by Gadgetoid


There is actually only 2 things that I did try to say:


1. Craig is sometimes a bit over optimistic and whit his short Twitter notes he thens to wake wrong hopes.


This is nothing new just a fact that even EvilDragon stated back in 2009: http://forum.golem.de/kommentare/politik-recht/handschellen-statt-handheld-neues-von-gizmondo/erinnert-mich-an-die-pandora.../33678,1840683,1847926,read.html#msg-1847926

Craig (einer der Hauptbeteiligten) ist ein typischer Marketingmensch.
Er hat gerne etwas übertrieben
And again to not just start a new discussion because of my wrong Interpretation I leave it to BableFish to translate this.

2. I'm disappointed that people whit more money can become Premium Customers. Its not about the Waiting time. I have waited so long allready, and I would do it again.


Its just my point of View of what I think is Fair and what not. If others think this was a good move, thats ok - thats your point of view and I respect that.


Mine is different. Can you respect my Point of view?


So having my point boiled down to the basics I hope we can forget all the Flaming cursing and Insulting that I did (and I'm sorry for doing so) and that others did to me.


Come on even if we look at things different here. We have all got the same Goal in the End. We want the Ultimate and over cool Pandora dream come true for all of us.


So lets move on together again.


OK?


:D
 
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2. I'm disappointed that people whit more money can become Premium Customers. Its not about the Waiting time. I have waited so long allready, and I would do it again.


Its just my point of View of what I think is Fair and what not. If others think this was a good move, thats ok - thats your point of view and I respect that.


Mine is different. Can you respect my Point of view?

Personally I don't understand this PoV.


It is one thing if people queue jump and the people who waited take even longer to get theirs, but it has been said numerous times that the money from prem units will go into increasing the manufacturing for all pandy buyers.


All it says to me is a big fat case of "I don't want someone getting a Pandora before I do"... Now how does that fit in with your open source codex?
 
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There is actually only 2 things that I did try to say:


1. Craig is sometimes a bit over optimistic and whit his short Twitter notes he thens to wake wrong hopes.


This is nothing new just a fact that even EvilDragon stated back in 2009: http://forum.golem.de/kommentare/politik-recht/handschellen-statt-handheld-neues-von-gizmondo/erinnert-mich-an-die-pandora.../33678,1840683,1847926,read.html#msg-1847926

Craig (einer der Hauptbeteiligten) ist ein typischer Marketingmensch.
Er hat gerne etwas übertrieben
And again to not just start a new discussion because of my wrong Interpretation I leave it to BableFish to translate this.

That's true, but as I said above, we started giving out any deadlines and being overoptimistic long ago and from then on only told what's been happening (or what we've been told will happen) - which is to be taken with a grain of salt, as it's just what companies estimate to us.


We've come a long way and we learnt a lot. While Craig still becomes very optimistic when things work (which is also good, as it motivates doing work as well), he also learnt to not be too overoptimistic as well.
 
That's true, but as I said above, we started giving out any deadlines and being overoptimistic long ago and from then on only told what's been happening (or what we've been told will happen) - which is to be taken with a grain of salt, as it's just what companies estimate to us.


We've come a long way and we learnt a lot. While Craig still becomes very optimistic when things work (which is also good, as it motivates doing work as well), he also learnt to not be too overoptimistic as well.

Don't you mean, you stopped giving out deadlines and being overoptimistic? :)
 
"I don't want someone getting a Pandora before I do".
Its not about my wanting to get the Pandora before others do. I just would have liked to see that everybody is being treated the same ways.


As Quoted before I waited so long already. And I'm more then willing to wait on for as long as it takes.


If People think its more important that things start to move faster even if this means that we get "Normal" and "Premium" Customers, well thats Ok its there Point of View - mine is different.

we started(I think you were meaning STOPED) giving out any deadlines and being overoptimistic long ago
Thats true for you Evildragon. And its a Good thing that the Official Posts on http://openpandora.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=2&Itemid=2&lang=de are written by you lately. You have a Talent In informing People on whats going on whit out steering up wrong Hopes. If everybody would choose there words as wise as you do (including my self) we would have a lot less tension around here.


What im Trying to say is If you get Quotes like:

300 new boards on their way from CC, we're building another 200 this week. Oh, and MAJOR iCP news later this week (finally).

— Craig J V Rothwell (@Craigix)

February 1, 2011
It sure sounds like a given Fact and a Deadline to me.
It says that 200 Pandoras WILL be build this weeek. NO maybe NO if everything goes right NO this is the Plan NO thats what we will try to accomplish. Only a big WE'RE BUILDING ANOTHER 200 THIS WEEK


So in my Understanding Craig is giving him self a Deadline here. Hes Deadline means that he WILL build 200 Pandoras THIS week.


So that adds up to 200 divided by 5 Work Days. Thats 40 a day. Sounds like the same speed to me like before the Premium Customer thing.


I just might rip everything out of Context here. But If I read that Tweet thats what I understand.
 
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It says that 200 Pandoras WILL be build this weeek. NO maybe NO if everything goes right NO this is the Plan NO thats what we will try to accomplish. Only a big WE'RE BUILDING ANOTHER 200 THIS WEEK


So in my Understanding Craig is giving him self a Deadline here. Hes Deadline means that he WILL build 200 Pandoras THIS week.


So that adds up to 200 divided by 5 Work Days. Thats 40 a day. Sounds like the same speed to me like before the Premium Customer thing.


I just might rip everything out of Context here. But If I read that Tweet thats what I understand.
Come on, by now you should know to take Craig with a grain of salt especially when he posts stuff like this.


Besides, I read that tweet as "CC said they're shipping 300 boards and if nothing goes wrong we will build 200 Pandoras this week".


Twitter isn't really the right medium for conveying the details and probability of such deadlines. Craig got some news, made an estimate and put it on twitter. This way you get the news while it is hot, even though it might not be 100% accurate.


I don't really understand the complaint though. Assembly and production have been going quite well the last month. For me, these boards contained more than enough info to estimate my delivery date with an accuracy of about a week (it's easier if you ordered from EDs shop). The mentioned production numbers and delivery dates were quite accurate.


I know the last few weeks of waiting are hard, but just try to find a little bit of extra patience. You won't regret it.
 
Its not about my wanting to get the Pandora before others do. I just would have liked to see that everybody is being treated the same ways.


As Quoted before I waited so long already. And I'm more then willing to wait on for as long as it takes.


If People think its more important that things start to move faster even if this means that we get "Normal" and "Premium" Customers, well thats Ok its there Point of View - mine is different.

This doesn't track to me. You say you don't mind waiting and it isn't about not wanting to get the Pandora before others do, but then you say you disagree with with the idea of Premium customers. So what do you disagree about them?


You earlier complained about them having more money and able to become premium customers; you infer that is not okay as you don't agree with that point of view. Especially as you state it in the context of the PoV of it being more important that things start moving faster... So you disagree with producing pandoras faster then? Please clear this up, because that is what makes no sense to me....


But shirely you should also take in context of other things like the future of batch 2+. How does your PoV cover that? Do you not want others to have a pandy in the future? Do you want to be in such an exclusive club that you are willing to risk being in a community of 0 growth?


Also you talk about being involved in a open source project, and then you say you don't mind waiting, and then you infer that you don't agree with the premium pandy idea, which to me seems to be designed to inject money into the project. Time = money = getting pandys quicker = long term growth of pandy. Any experience of a resource driven project should give you an idea of how important time is!


You don't mind waiting longer, but the longer it takes to clear out the pre-orders, the longer it takes to bring in new blood in terms of finance for OPT and growth of the community.


These of course are my opinions so feel free to disagree with them, but please do clarify yours and not with fuzzy terms like open source codex (that statement made me want to throw up)
 
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"I don't want someone getting a Pandora before I do".
Its not about my wanting to get the Pandora before others do. I just would have liked to see that everybody is being treated the same ways.


... but everybody doesn't treat OPT the same way !


some donate for nothing, some patiently wait, some try to blackmail OPT some upgrade to premiom and get their unit faster IN EXCHANGE of helping financing the faster build of those who patiently wait ...


i think it's fair that everyone is treated accordingly to what they do to the community, that's what i call fair, much fairer than the way you'd like things to go, when you do more, you get more : that's just life
 
This doesn't track to me. You say you don't mind waiting and it isn't about not wanting to get the Pandora before others do, but then you say you disagree with with the idea of Premium customers.


You earlier complained about them having more money and able to become premium customers; you infer that is not okay as you don't agree with that point of view. Especially as you state it in the context of the PoV of it being more important that things start moving faster... So you disagree with producing pandoras faster then? Please clear this up, because that is what makes no sense to me....

Actually, this is quite clear to me. I do not agree, but I understand the position, as it is fairly common here in different areas. Case in point: Healthcare. In Sweden, most all medical facilities are state-run, and so when you are ill, you go to the nearest health care center, wait a while, get examined or treated or, if it is something more serious, get sent to the next level of the healthcare system, that is a hospital or something. The healthcare is more or less free of charge (or rather, financed through taxes), every citizen gets the same treatment regardless of status, it works slowly, sometimes erroneously, but in the same way for everyone.


Nowadays, of course, the possibilities have opened up for someone with enough cash to actually go somewhere else - Someone with enough money may, say, take a trip to Poland and visit a private clinic there and pay a hulking great amount of money to get that hip surgery or whatever done now instead of in two years time when the official hip surgery operation queue has finally gotten to their spot.


This is, to a lot of swedish people, an abomination. The idea that you, with enough money, can actually get your operation before your rightful time, is seen as a great hulking blot on the Fairness and Impartialness of the Healthcare Queue. The idea being that someone (your receiving doctor at the HC center) has decided, in the impartial and objective way of the swedish system, exactly how much of an emergency your hip joint is and thus how quickly it needs to be treated, and to question that and actually get treated before that is to shake your fist in the face of God, or at least Medicinalstyrelsen. It is a deeply felt moral objection, and has nothing, really, to do with reasonable argument - It is Wrong and Evil in the same way that killing little innocent babies for fun is Wrong and Evil.


I do not know, but I imagine that if you are, say, american, this is a somewhat unfamiliar mindset :)


But: It is a quite common position, at least in some places here in Europe, that when something is done "in common" (cue debates about whether the pandora is such a commonality, but that is not necessary here), it is morally wrong in and of itself to use money to "slip past the line". It is viewed as corruption and bribery, more or less.


So: There is no argument, most likely. It is self-evidently wrong, and if you do not understand this then you are self-evidently wrong, of have no sense of Community and Shared Values, or something like that.


(as I said, I understand the position. I do not share it)
 
^ Nice analogy. Also in that case the rich people make the public line go faster by not using the public system, and in their part pay for the rest of us in the form of taxes without getting anything back, therefore adding to the healthcare system funding :p
 
Don't make politics out of things that aren't. The team is running a business and they made a perfectly sensible business decision.
 
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Come on, by now you should know to take Craig with a grain of salt especially when he posts stuff like this.
Finally someone that is being honest. And sees that you have to be careful how to take Craig's Comments.

Twitter isn't really the right medium for conveying the details and probability of such deadlines. Craig got some news, made an estimate and put it on twitter. This way you get the news while it is hot, even though it might not be 100% accurate.
Thats exactly what I have been trying to say. Thanx for writing it in Words that hopefully will be better understood then my own.

This doesn't track to me. You say you don't mind waiting and it isn't about not wanting to get the Pandora before others do, but then you say you disagree with with the idea of Premium customers. So what do you disagree about them?
Only that some people get treated different then others.

So you disagree with producing pandoras faster then?
No I do not. I only disagree that some people get treated different then others

But shirely you should also take in context of other things like the future of batch 2+.
So now we start to start to talk in a more reasonable way. Not just insulting me but confronting me whit a serious Question. (My fault I started whit the insults in the first place, by writing some of my comments in a much to harsh way)


So back to your Question. Yes you got a point there. If the Pandora should keep on rolling for Batch 2 + 3 + 4 and Pandora2... They need Money no way around that fact.


But please don't try to sell that fact by making people believe that things will go faster for everybody this way. And then when I put some pressure on to see if they are rally so sure that tings will move faster you start to insult me. Also would there not have been a other way to get in some extra Money?


For example sell the first 100 Pandoras of Batch2 to with a Signature on it from the OP-TEAM. This is just one Idea Im sure there are more out there.


So Yes I think its imported that the make sure that the Money comes in for the Pandora to go on... But there are ways to do that without treating some costumers different then others.


@Moxie in


Thanx a lot for explaining my Point of View in a way that hopefully more People will understand it then in the Words that I used.


I have great Respect of you. Because you quote

(as I said, I understand the position. I do not share it)
You do not share my Position but take your time to help others understand it anyway. Respect. and Thanx a lot.

So now that I got all this Help. In explaining what I tried to say in the first place. But was not understood - because most people just heard my Harsh and Insulting Tone... And not the Words behind that Tone. (Sorry about that once again) - Can we move on together and Dream the Dream that we all Share?


A Dream of a unique device that has been realized by our great OP-Team and all of us that helped to finance this Project by pre-orderdering.


Hope that in the Future non of us will ever forget that we all have the same goal - That the Pandora Project will stay alive forever.


Hope we don't lose that goal out of our eyes - even if we sometimes have a different Point of View in some areas.


I Hope I dont make anybody trow up again, by posting 2 Links and a Quote out of my Collection of Open Source Codexes here.


But this Quote is rally what I wish for all of us. And I myself have to get reminded to live by it again and again... I did not live by it in this discussion all of the Time And I'm sorry for that.


So here we go:


http://www.humanitarian-ict.org/wiki/h-foss_code_of_conduct


http://wiki.movabletype.org/Code_of_Conduct


http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct

When you disagree, consult others. Disagreements, both political and technical, happen all the time and the MTOS community is no exception. The important goal is not to avoid disagreements or differing views but to resolve them constructively. You should turn to the community and to the community process to seek advice and to resolve disagreements. We have the Technical Board and the Community Council, both of which will help to decide the right course for MTOS. There are also several Project Teams and Team Leaders, who may be able to help you figure out which direction will be most acceptable. If you really want to go a different way, then we encourage you to make a derivative distribution of MTOS, so that the community can try out your changes and ideas for itself and contribute to the discussion.
Be respectful. The Ubuntu community and its members treat one another with respect. Everyone can make a valuable contribution to Ubuntu. We may not always agree, but disagreement is no excuse for poor behaviour and poor manners. We might all experience some frustration now and then, but we cannot allow that frustration to turn into a personal attack. It's important to remember that a community where people feel uncomfortable or threatened is not a productive one. We expect members of the Ubuntu community to be respectful when dealing with other contributors as well as with people outside the Ubuntu project and with users of Ubuntu.

And just to make sure - I to have to pull myself by my Ears - And learn to live by this Codex more and more... Sorry for the Times I did forget.
 
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@OldJim


You see this still doesn't track with me.


You don't want people treated differently, but you do want the pandora's to be produced faster and you do want a future for the pandora. You also acknowledge that they need money to make this possible.


So how do you propose for this to happen? I hope you don't expect the OPT to be treated like they would treat workers in a sweat shop?


End of the day something needs to give, and the prem orders seems to cover most of the bases. Come up with a better idea please, one which doesn't impinge on your PoV and good lord please stop preaching I feel like I've dropped into an episode of Magic Roundabout!
 
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