True or False

[XxionxX]

I really don't understand what your grievances with the OPT have to do with open source. First off, open source is about the release of information not about keeping promises (unless you promise to release the information). The team has been very forthcoming with info, almost to a fault. And as far as I know the hardware itself was never open source. People are just supposed to be able to do what they want with their software on this device, not be able to take the design and make their own company distributing the same thing. Don't quote me though, I may be wrong here.


also:

Spoiler

 

[Blue Protoman]

When I think of OpenPandora, the last thing I think of is bullshit. OP is a very clean toilet.

 

[Eridger]

When I think of OpenPandora, the last thing I think of is bullshit. OP is a very clean toilet.

....The hell kind of phrase is that?

 

[gadgetoid]

This is a poorly written, poorly structured, incomprehensible rant with spontaneous and erroneous capitalisation and more spelling mistakes than a Geocities page dedicated to ( or possibly written by ) a Shihtzu.


The community, and any pre-order customers, have had the option to bail on OpenPandora and leave them for dead. The very fact that we did not choose to do this in significant numbers to cause them real trouble illustrates exactly what this community is all about.


The relationship between OpenPandora and the community on the whole has never really boiled down to "them" and "us." Sure, the odd irate customer has cropped up on these forums ranting that OpenPandora have personally let them down, shot their dog, and shit on their Grandmother. But ultimately the community are very much behind OpenPandora and sympathise with their struggles.


We may have put down a few hundred quid to secure our Pandoras months ago, but that pales in comparison to the sacrifices the OpenPandora team have made, the stress they have had to ensure, and the constant, harsh criticism aimed at them- the likes of which they surely do not deserve.


Of course, being customers gives us at least some right to be critical of the teams mistakes, miscalculations, or misunderestimations. Ultimately, however, those of us who were here from the outset ( or sometimes beforehand ) pre-ordered a Pandora fully aware that we were supporting a groundbreaking initiative, designed and produced by a team who have never really embarked upon such a complicated project.


You can accuse OpenPandora of stringing us on for months and months. But, ultimately, we've all been led this far by the simple fact that we support this initiative. Any pre-order customers left are now well availed of the knowledge that the money they spent to secure their Pandora has been well invested, and that they will be able to sell their unit at a profit on ebay.


At this juncture, nobody really has any cause to complain. Anyone dropping out is a foolish investor or perhaps has commitments which mean they must. Anyone sticking to their guns will either get a Pandora, or a nice little profit on EBay. A sudden influx of $450 would be mighty handy for those looking at the iPad 2, for example, and those Pandoras would go to loving homes.


I realise I've countered an unstructured rant with an unstructured post. But my point is that there's simply no place for this nonsense anymore. OpenPandora have delivered. We're bathing in the light at the end of the tunnel, and those of us still waiting for our Pandoras have nothing to worry about. Sure it's been a long wait, but partaking in this community for all those months has been an exciting roller-coaster and a very, very interesting case study into this sort of start-up.


To wrap up. Chin up guys. Take incomprehensible bollocks like this in your stride and continue doing what you do best: innovating in a stale market with fantastic hardware. With the iControlPad more or less officially selling, you can be proud that you've overcome your struggles and brought two fantastic products to market. It's plain sailing from here, I hope, and your hard work will be paid back in droves. You deserve every million you make, and every penny you invest back into creating new and exciting hardware from here on will be a penny well spent.

 

[OldJim]

Wow I got quit a riot going. Must have hit a Nerve meaning that what Im saying has some true in it after all.

here can I read this "codex of open source" you are referring to?Or is it a compilation of your personal experiences

Just google for Code of Conduct or H-Foos in relation to Open source and you come up whit tones of Results so no this is not only based on personal experience.

So no, you are not calling them liars yet. You just set these boundaries when they become liars.

Well the boundaries are not set by my but by the Quotes that the OP-Team made them selfs.


I'm just pointing them out

We stopped making promises a long time ago.

Yes EvilDragon you did thats true, but Craig thats a different story. He is a Businessman how has the tendency to be over optimistic and sell that optimisms as hard facts. Even you once said that http://forum.golem.de/kommentare/politik-recht/handschellen-statt-handheld-neues-von-gizmondo/erinnert-mich-an-die-pandora.../33678,1840683,1847926,read.html#msg-1847926


Maybe its just that mos of his tweets are just short notes that can be miss understood. But they sure most of the Time sound like facts that just turn out not to be coming true.


And the once again you are not reading me right!


Im "NOT CALLING THE OP-TEAM LIARS"


I'm only pointing out that many people out there that not fallow every word posted on all the different Forums and the Official Page. Very easy can get this impression.


Once again a promise was made and the time just past and past...


If you make people think that 10 Weeks is realistic until they get there Pandora and then it not happens over and over again.


The point will just come that no matter if its your fault or not people will just stop believing it.


He just google for Pandora and the 2 Month Joke... And you will get what I'm Talking about.


Maybe I was to Optimistic But my first intention on writing this Post was to give the OP-TEAM a chance to prove that they actually can keep a Deadline.


I really tried to make my calculations in a way that it would give the OP-TEAM as much time as possible, really hopping that this time it was not just one more 2 Month Joke.


But from the reaction that I'm getting I'm very disappointed, I hoped that the OP-TEAM would use this opportunity to prove that they are making realistic Deadlines.


But instead they already plan there next excuse:

Though if CC can't keep up for some reason and "only" 90% of the Pandoras

Hey if you really get to make double Speed now by selling these Premium Pandora's - then even if the only send 50% if what they are promising at the Moment you still can keep the Deadline that I calculated # on the basis of your statements.
So do you not see that I'm actually giving the OP-TEAM a great Chance to prove that the can keep DEADLINES... But instead of making your calculations and seeing that the Timespan that I'm giving them is more then double of the time that they think that it could be done you attack me.


And maybe I just expected to much of the OP-Team when I believed that they would treat everyone the same and not make people whit more money to PREMIUM costumers.


People like me that have to scratch together every penny to afford this Dream to come true will always be secondary costumers. Even if people like me did give the OP-TEAM the money to start this Project in the First place.But I guess as soon as they have our money we are secondary costumers if we not con give the even more.


I guess its just because I'm was so disappointed in this Move they made. I would not have cared to wait for some more weeks as long as everybody was treated the same.


So he im sorry If I started a riot here just because I was believing that the OP-Team could stand up to my exceptions that obviously are much to high.


So hey people just calm down. Sit back and wait sometime your and mine Pandora will arrive to and I'm sure it will be worth the wait.


Hey I was dreaming of this device since I was a boy long before this Project even started. And since this Project started I was eager to follow every Step the made.


And even if some of the News that was Posted made wrong hopes come up, they did show us all a lot of what it takes to make a device like this come true.


He be honest if the OP-TEAM would have just wrote a book of every Step that it took until the very last Pandora of Batch one was delivered - How many of you would read und study every Step?


But like this - I think we all learned a lot that we would have never learned if the waiting time was not so long.


So I hope everybody has calmed down now - and hey how knows maybe they actually will be able to prove that they can keep a Deadline.


I for my part wont stop dreaming of this possibility... just like i have been doing for the last 2 Years.

 

[TrashyMG]

@Old_Jim


Your Command of the English language is commendable. Your sense of reality, not so much.


Shit happens, deadlines slip, people make estimates with the information that held true when it was said and people make mistakes. If you understand that then you can just wait in peace like the rest of us.


Perhaps redirect your energy by working on porting software, starting a hardware project or helping people in the support section... You know something useful.

 

[Blue Protoman]

When I think of OpenPandora, the last thing I think of is bullshit. OP is a very clean toilet.

....The hell kind of phrase is that?

The kind that gets put in signatures.

 

[Anihil8ion2199]

When I think of OpenPandora, the last thing I think of is bullshit. OP is a very clean toilet.

....The hell kind of phrase is that?

The kind that gets put in signatures.

LOL! An infusion of Blue Protoman in threads like this makes me feel better all over again!


@ OldJim: Link Please reconsider the fact that your facts may not be very factual! Sorry again if I'm being rude. You are entitled to your own opinions, and although your English language skills are exceptional, I think you come across as too harsh and accusatory in parts of your posts.

 

[OldJim]

This is a poorly written, poorly structured, incomprehensible rant with spontaneous and erroneous capitalisation and more spelling mistakes than a Geocities page dedicated to ( or possibly written by ) a Shihtzu.

WoW can someone tell me what this means in German? :blink:

Shit happens, deadlines slip, people make estimates with the information that held true when it was said and people make mistakes. If you understand that then you can just wait in peace like the rest of us.Perhaps redirect your energy by working on porting software, starting a hardware project or helping people in the support section... You know something useful.

I you would have taken the time to look at my signature you would know that I have been very active in the Open Source Community. So far not in the Pandora Section but if my wish of come true that could change quick. I'm pretty sure I'm giving my fair share in to the Open source community. And Yes I agree "shit happens" and Deadlines Slip. I did miss deadlines myself and feel horrible about it. Thats just why I know how important it is to be careful what hopes you awake in other people by the comments you make.

Please reconsider the fact that your facts may not be very factual!

If I missed some facts pleas correct me. Go right ahead make your own calculations and present them here. Tell me what you would consider that the worst case deadline would be.


Pleas do not just tell me that my fact are wrong. Present me your calculation whit the facts that missed.

I think you come across as too harsh and accusatory in parts of your posts

Sorry If I'm to harsh or if someone feels accused by my.


Thats not my Intention. I only try to draw a picture of the Situation without whitewashing the ugly facts.


So again sorry if this comes across abit harsh. I really do not want to accuse or offend anybody.


So once again I ask you please come down. take a moment to think about the facts that I have presented here. Maybe try to look at em in a less harsh way then I presented them.


Then collect your the facts for your self, make the calculation and see If I'm that far of. If so please present your calculation. And If I made a mistake I'm sure willing to correct my calculations.

 

[moxie]

The main thing you do is this:


You collect various reports at various times from various people, that may or may not mean the same thing and/or may or may not have the same ideqa of how things are on the big picture. These, you present as a unified collection of facts. Then, from these "facts", you calculate your own predictions, and then you demand that OPT should underwrite your prediction or agree with you in some not quite clear way.


Why should OPT bind themselves to a prediction fabricated by you?


Because, and this is the problem, you fabricate "facts" on which you hang the honesty of other people. You take quotes out of proportion and attach a far greater importance to them than they had to begin with. The same thing can be seen in the rather weird exchange about "the codex of open source" - Yes, of course people have written essays about their opinions on how people ought to interact on FOSS projects. This is the Internet, ffs - Everybody has an opinion, everybody publishes their opinion, and nobody listens to anybody else. Does this mean that everybody must follow this codex? Of course not - Even though it says "Codex" on the front page, it is really just another opinion. Even if it is the opinion of RMS himself, it is just an opinion.


Yet you see it, or want OPT to see it, as some sort of fact that they must follow, just by virtue of being something that is in close vicinity of some sort of open sourciness (it makes no sense to say that OPT is a FOSS project - It is neither F nor S, for starters)


You make facts out of non-facts. Then you go looking for inconsistencies in your newfound facts. Then you hold other people responsible for not living up to your invented facts.


I think there is a hint to why here:

If I missed some facts pleas correct me. Go right ahead make your own calculations and present them here. Tell me what you would consider that the worst case deadline would be.


Pleas do not just tell me that my fact are wrong. Present me your calculation whit the facts that missed.

You desperately want a deadline. Nobody with any stake in this project are going to touch even the word "deadline" with a two month long pole any more - they have wisened up on that. So you go and try to find a deadline anyways, by reading more than really is there out of a bunch of quotes, and then try to pin that on OPT, by claiming that if they don't agree to your invented deadline, they must give their own or be called liars. That is a bit nasty, and also accusatory.


So: Drop it. You will not get an official statement on when all of batch one will be delivered, until the day when it is. I predict that on that day, Craig will come on to the board and officially declare that the deadline to get all of batch one produced was yesterday. Before that, you will not get it, no matter how much meaning you try to wring out of the tiniest scraps of information.

 

[j0n]

When I think of OpenPandora, the last thing I think of is bullshit. OP is a very clean toilet.

Hehe, this is the funniest thing I've read in a while. Good stuff.

 

[OldJim]

Nobody with any stake in this project are going to touch even the word "deadline" with a two month long pole any more

Well they did:

Because, and this is the problem, you fabricate "facts" on which you hang the honesty of other people.

And again Reed these treats and if you say that I'm Fabricating Facts you will have to say the same to them

Even though it says "Codex" on the front page, it is really just another opinion.

Yes thats absolute right just another opinion. A opinion that I share.


If you have a different opinion thats ok.


But this is mine and I hope that ok too

 

[moxie]

I really, honestly, do not understand what you mean with "treats"? I am to read a turkish delight? In which I will find fabricated facts? I don't get it.


Your links are broken, also, if the links are supposed to point to the treats. Or threats? But it was a long time since we had anything remotely threat-like, wasn't it? :unsure:


And yes, of course you are entitled to your own opinion. As am I. But you can't hold other people responsible for not acting according to your opinion. You may have a strong opinion on how a FOSS project ought to be run, but you can't really hold OPT responsible for not acting according to that opinion. Heck, you can't even hold someone who actually runs a FOSS project to that.

 

[moxie]

Even though it says "Codex" on the front page, it is really just another opinion.

Yes thats absolute right just another opinion. A opinion that I share.

Which one? I had no problem finding about a dozen similar kinds of essays on FOSS principles and guidelines, all different. Some a little, some a lot, some directly contrary. Which one represents The True Faith?


The problem isn't the "opinion" part - The problem is that there exists several.

 

[gadgetoid]

Your English is almost 1% as bad as my German.


I figured it either wasn't your first language, or your brain had been replaced with a typewriter in a washing machine full of bricks. How one might fit a typewriter amongst those bricks defies explanation... but then so do some of your possibly Babelfish-produced idiosyncrasies. Oh wait... That would be an explanation. Fuck it.


OpenPandora have had enough criticism, the time has come to cheer those guys over the finish line and beyond. We wouldn't want Craig eating cold beans and renting all but one room out to creepy, possibly homicidal single gentlemen. And poor old EvilDagon only seems to have 3 or 4 computers... could you imagine living with only 3 computers!?

 

[OldJim]

Sorry for the broken Links - Fixed them


also Sorry for my misspelling. I was trying to say: Please read the posts in the Links above.

The problem is that there exists several.

Sorry where is the problem.


I was asked:

Where can I read this "codex of open source" you are referring to? Or is it a compilation of your personal experiences on how the OSS community works?

And I answered:

Just google for Code of Conduct or H-Foos in relation to Open source and you come up whit tones of Results so no this is not only based on personal experience.

I never quoted that this opinion is the only right one.


And of course there are several opinions.


I'm just pointing out mine.

But you can't hold other people responsible for not acting according to your opinion.

No I cant make the responsible. But I can point out how there actions look from my point of view.


Or is that not ok?

 

[Eridger]

Oh, fuck off.


They're new. They're working. That's enough.


(Sorry about the language. I never swear, but this is justified.)

 

[moxie]

The problem is that there exists several.

Sorry where is the problem.


I was asked:

Where can I read this "codex of open source" you are referring to? Or is it a compilation of your personal experiences on how the OSS community works?

And I answered:

Just google for Code of Conduct or H-Foos in relation to Open source and you come up whit tones of Results so no this is not only based on personal experience.

I never quoted that this opinion is the only right one.


And of course there are several opinions.


I'm just pointing out mine.

No, you are pointing out, as you say yourself, tonnes of them, many very different. It is as if, when asked to show a picture of yourself, you point to flickr and say "It is there".


And, if you are to point blame on someone for not doing things according to the spirit of open source, there had better be a fairly unambiguous pronunciation of what that specific spirit is. Particularly when the things that irk you are not obviously contrary to some sort of general idea of what that spirit might be (or codex, or code of conduct, or whatever). Particularly when the actual project at hand - building a tiny computer - is not, really, obviously, a free open source software project. How is that relevant?

 

[OldJim]

Your English is almost 1% as bad as my German.


I figured it either wasn't your first language, or your brain had been replaced with a typewriter in a washing machine full of bricks. How one might fit a typewriter amongst those bricks defies explanation... but then so do some of your possibly Babelfish-produced idiosyncrasies. Oh wait... That would be an explanation. Fuck it.

Yes you got that right my first Language is German. And I'm sorry if my writing is not good or even leads to misunderstandings.


I may should consider to use Babelfish - thanx for your Tip

OpenPandora have had enough criticism, the time has come to cheer those guys over the finish line and beyond. We wouldn't want Craig eating cold beans and renting all but one room out to creepy, possibly homicidal single gentlemen. And poor old EvilDagon only seems to have 3 or 4 computers... could you imagine living with only 3 computers!?

WoW I'm not getting your point. Must be some English sarcasm.


Any way all the people out there that are putting my down and flaming at me.


Telling me I'm using a wrong and Harsh tone.


Just ask your self are you using a better tone when you are writing about me?


I can see that this is not leading any where.


People are just way to impulsive around this place.


Not willing to take any critical comments.


I guess I missed my goal:

I'm only pointing out that many people out there that not fallow every word posted on all the different Forums and the Official Page. Very easy can get this impression.
Once again a promise was made and the time just past and past...


If you make people think that 10 Weeks is realistic until they get there Pandora and then it not happens over and over again.


The point will just come that no matter if its your fault or not people will just stop believing it.


He just google for Pandora and the 2 Month Joke... And you will get what I'm Talking about.


Maybe I was to Optimistic But my first intention on writing this Post was to give the OP-TEAM a chance to prove that they actually can keep a Deadline.


I really tried to make my calculations in a way that it would give the OP-TEAM as much time as possible, really hopping that this time it was not just one more 2 Month Joke.


But from the reaction that I'm getting I'm very disappointed, I hoped that the OP-TEAM would use this opportunity to prove that they are making realistic Deadlines.

Sorry for all the hard feeling that I did dig up.


I really wish the OP Team only the very best. And hope that they will have success whit this Project.


I really wish that they can reestablish there reputation of the 2 Month Joke Project.


I really hope that they soon will have the reputation of the coolest open source project ever.


I hope for them that they will earn the money and honor they worked so hard for.

 

[moxie]

Sorry for the broken Links - Fixed them


also Sorry for my misspelling. I was trying to say: Please read the posts in the Links above.

Ok, so then the "facts" in there are the same as you posted in the first post in this thread, which already has been debunked by several people? Which fall under the same criticism that I've already pointed out - That you are taking things out of context. When someone like Craig says "We believe that we can build 70 units in a day" or something like that, you strip out the "believe" and make a fact out of it. When, in the course of the thread, someone asks "How many boards do you think you'll have next week?" and the reply is "About 500", then you read the reply as a fact and disregard the "do you think" in the question.


This is no promises. This is predictions. It is you that turn them into "promises", by disregarding words like "estimate", "believe", "think", "If nothing goes wrong". You create false facts for yourself, and want to hold OPT responsible for them. Don't do that. It will not help in getting you an exact queue place, and even if your pandora hasn't shipped in two weeks, no promise will have been broken except the one in your own mind.


I'm sorry if I come off a bit raw-sounding, but this madness has to stop. I thought we had seen the last of it when the machines started shipping again, but apparently no such luck.