The case of the case.

God Ginrai

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If this layout barely fits on Pandora then it won't fit on Pyra for sure.
 Honestly, the DS Lite distances fit fine on the Pandora. If the distance for the Pyra is somehow smaller, then my layout which had slightly less distance than the DS Lite buttons would likely still work.

-God Ginrai
 

Yoyobuae

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If this layout barely fits on Pandora then it won't fit on Pyra for sure.
 
Honestly, the DS Lite distances fit fine on the Pandora. If the distance for the Pyra is somehow smaller, then my layout which had slightly less distance than the DS Lite buttons would likely still work.

-God Ginrai
You speak it like actually worked to begin with...
 

God Ginrai

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You speak it like actually worked to begin with...
My mockup isn't any less definitive than your GIF of the two devices based on an image that wasn't taken directly top down. If you call the feasibility of my mockup into question, then you have no choice but to call your own arguments into question. As you can see from my mockup, the buttons are all the proper distances from each other and the distances between the button group and other keys is at least as far as the distance between any 2 keys on the Pandora. That is about as close as I can get on my own to proving it works.

-God Ginrai
 
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levi

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I'm not convinced that extrapolating from the DS's four button layout to a six button layout is neccesarily a safe deduction. In a four button diamond your thumb can overhang three sides of the target button any amount and not conflict with another button. With a six button layout, in contrast, the middle buttons of the two rows have adjacent buttons on three sides. If that's still your argument, I prefer to take evidence from ED's video which shows it's all rather cramped.
 

Yoyobuae

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You speak it like actually worked to begin with...
My mockup isn't any less definitive than your GIF of the two devices based on an image that wasn't taken directly top down. If you call the feasibility of my mockup into question, then you have no choice but to call your own arguments into question. As you can see from my mockup, the buttons are all the proper distances from each other and the distances between the button group and other keys is at least as far as the distance between any 2 keys on the Pandora. That is about as close as I can get on my own to proving it works.

-God Ginrai
Askarus modded Pandora to a 6-button layout, and ED tested it. It didn't work. That's real proof.

You say that moving the buttons 1 or 2 mm here and there on Askarus mod would suddenly make everything work. But then you go on and say to me that it doesn't matter if button were closer.

Saying that the distance between the buttons is the same as Pandora's keyboard keys is a very weak argument, as typing on keyboard is not the same as playing a game with game buttons (for one, there's usually no backspace/undo on games).

To me the only thing that has been proven is your persistence (kudos on that).
 
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Natsu

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I guess it's voting time. Although, I wish my layout can be tried. Link
 

I'm not convinced that extrapolating from the DS's four button layout to a six button layout is neccesarily a safe deduction. In a four button diamond your thumb can overhang three sides of the target button any amount and not conflict with another button. With a six button layout, in contrast, the middle buttons of the two rows have adjacent buttons on three sides. If that's still your argument, I prefer to take evidence from ED's video which shows it's all rather cramped.
I can't really picture what you are saying here, but it is easy to treat the 6 buttons layout as 2 set of diamonds.

3DS works for me and this layout will work too.
 
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God Ginrai

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I'm not convinced that extrapolating from the DS's four button layout to a six button layout is neccesarily a safe deduction. In a four button diamond your thumb can overhang three sides of the target button any amount and not conflict with another button. With a six button layout, in contrast, the middle buttons of the two rows have adjacent buttons on three sides. If that's still your argument, I prefer to take evidence from ED's video which shows it's all rather cramped.
 You raise an interesting point about the hangover. However, EvilDragon's video honestly proves nothing about the feasibility of a correct layout. Askarus's layout had specific spacing problems. And the specific problems EvilDragon complained about were involving the buttons that had the worst spacing errors. This is why I suggested in my earlier comment that Askarus should do a version 2 with a fixed layout.

Askarus modded Pandora to a 6-button layout, and ED tested it. It didn't work. That's real proof.
 What it proved is that Askarus's layout did not work. As I (and others) have pointed out, that layout had problems that needed to be fixed to provide a fair test. As a side benefit, it also gave me a reference size for the DS Lite buttons, which allowed me to make a more accurate mockup than the ones I have been making before.

You say that moving the buttons 1 or 2 mm here and there on Askarus mod would suddenly make everything work. But then you go on and say to me that it doesn't matter if button were closer.
 No, I didn't say that it didn't matter if buttons were closer. I said that the small amount of distance shaved off by my layout which was slightly smaller would likely make it fit, assuming that there was less space as you were saying.

Saying that the distance between the buttons is the same as Pandora's keyboard keys is a very weak argument, as typing on keyboard is not the same as playing a game with game buttons (for one, there's usually no backspace/undo on games).
 Well, considering that the average user has a standard typing speed of 200 characters per minute, which means that you are consistently typing at a rate that requires multiple keypresses each second, it is to be expected that they will make errors.

To me the only thing that has been proven is your persistence (kudos on that).
You've made snarky remarks like this against my character at least 4 times now. I'd appreciate it if you would stick to arguments. I don't back down to insults.

-God Ginrai
 

Yoyobuae

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Askarus modded Pandora to a 6-button layout, and ED tested it. It didn't work. That's real proof.
 
What it proved is that Askarus's layout did not work. As I (and others) have pointed out, that layout had problems that needed to be fixed to provide a fair test. As a side benefit, it also gave me a reference size for the DS Lite buttons, which allowed me to make a more accurate mockup than the ones I have been making before.
You can keep repeating that argument (and probably will) no matter how many times Askarus tries.

To me the only thing that has been proven is your persistence (kudos on that).
You've made snarky remarks like this against my character at least 4 times now. I'd appreciate it if you would stick to arguments. I don't back down to insults.

-God Ginrai
Tried arguments ... didnt work. :p

Sorry, I can no longer take this discussion seriously. It has literally become joke of a discussion.
 

FaeMinx

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Honestly, if a correct 6 button mock-up is tried and still found to not be feasible, I will be satisfied.

The point that is being made here is that for any chance of a 6 button layout working, the positions have to be absolutely 100% perfect.

There is no room for error, so creating a mock-up that is just an estimate proves nothing (except of course; the necessity of precision).
 

_wb_

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Well this is clearly a borderline case: what is just too cramped to some is just feasible to others.

Comparing button distances with those of any 4-button controller does not make much sense, you have to compare with existing 6-button controllers if you want to make such an argument. As an analogy: a dpad can be quite compact and still work, but if it were to have 6 directions (say, some kind of 3D dpad) instead of 4, things would be very different.

The lengths ED and Askarus went through to test this idea show to me that they take it very seriously, and if they judge that it does not work well enough, then I'll take their word for it. I don't think a poll would be very useful: most of the people would vote based on how it looks, not on how it feels. The opinion of those who tried both options are much more relevant.

Looking at the difference between Askarus' mod and GG's proposal, I don't think the precision of the mod was insufficient to get a good idea of how it would feel. You can of course keep requesting more precise executions, but there's no end to that kind of argument. I can imagine extending this thread with a dozen pages of the type "ok, it's more precise now and still doesn't work, but there's still half a mm difference!" ... "ok, it's exact now and still doesn't work, but you should use the real buttons, not ones from a DS" ... "ok, but this is just a hardware hack, in a mass-produced unit it will work better!"
 

Glyph Reader

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Well this is clearly a borderline case: what is just too cramped to some is just feasible to others.

Comparing button distances with those of any 4-button controller does not make much sense, you have to compare with existing 6-button controllers if you want to make such an argument. As an analogy: a dpad can be quite compact and still work, but if it were to have 6 directions (say, some kind of 3D dpad) instead of 4, things would be very different.

The lengths ED and Askarus went through to test this idea show to me that they take it very seriously, and if they judge that it does not work well enough, then I'll take their word for it. I don't think a poll would be very useful: most of the people would vote based on how it looks, not on how it feels. The opinion of those who tried both options are much more relevant.

Looking at the difference between Askarus' mod and GG's proposal, I don't think the precision of the mod was insufficient to get a good idea of how it would feel. You can of course keep requesting more precise executions, but there's no end to that kind of argument. I can imagine extending this thread with a dozen pages of the type "ok, it's more precise now and still doesn't work, but there's still half a mm difference!" ... "ok, it's exact now and still doesn't work, but you should use the real buttons, not ones from a DS" ... "ok, but this is just a hardware hack, in a mass-produced unit it will work better!"
I can see several of your points.  Especially the one about polls.  Polls just don't work for this kind of thing. 

However, looking at GG's mockup, it looks like the impreciseness is really skewing the results more than you think.  Of course, I just might be hoping to hard for this to work out as a confirmed feature. 

-Glyph Reader
 

God Ginrai

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Looking at the difference between Askarus' mod and GG's proposal, I don't think the precision of the mod was insufficient to get a good idea of how it would feel. You can of course keep requesting more precise executions, but there's no end to that kind of argument.
I think it was definitely insufficient. The problems that EvilDragon had were all at the places where the button distances were the closest together. He complained about the Y and A, which had at most half the distance between them that those buttons do in my proposal, and he said when he did this (or tried to hit the A button alone), it caused him to hit X, which was because the X was too far to the right and closer than it should be to the A.

-God Ginrai
 

FaeMinx

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^@_wb_ I don't agree. I immediately saw the issues with Askarus' mod and could have predicted Ed's conclusion without even reading it.

For the record, I'm actually quite happy with Ed's layout, so I'm not arguing this because I want a 6 button layout at any cost.

But I see GG make good points and for the large part most are only too eager to discount or ignore them.

Now that it has been shown that it is possible to make a mock-up in a reasonable amount of time at virtually no cost, it isn't unreasonable to request that another mock-up be made to accurately test GG's proposal.

If the first mock-up had been very close to the proposal, I would have accepted Ed's conclusion without question... however, the issues were glaring and obvious - the diamond shape wasn't even present as an example. 

It would take almost no effort to print out GG's proposal to scale, use a pin to mark the center of each button hole on the plastic, then pin punch that mark so a drill bit wouldn't slip, then use an appropriate sized drill bit to drill out the hole. Your measurements would be perfect.

I would do it myself if I had a couple of cases to play with.
 

Neelix

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Looking at the difference between Askarus' mod and GG's proposal, I don't think the precision of the mod was insufficient to get a good idea of how it would feel.
I do. Even before seeing the video, the first thing I thought when I saw the mock-up was that it would look less cramped if the layout was out correct, I could tell it wasn't going to be comfortable to use. I don't get the same impression from the layout suggested by God Ginrai.

I'm with FaeMinx on this, all that's been proved is that the tested layout doesn't work, not that the proposed layout doesn't work.

- Neelix
 

Askarus

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There is only one chance I see that this might work.

For now the diamond should be (N64 layout) A,B, C left ,and C right.

If the diamond were on the c buttons then t might feel better.

Comparable to what Natsu did.

I see this placing of buttons will fit a lot better than God Ginrai's.

Making Saber's Start\select mod is pretty easy compared to the 6 Button layout.

I hope there is some time left on Monday to do those two tests.
 

God Ginrai

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For now the diamond should be (N64 layout) A,B, C left ,and C right.

If the diamond were on the c buttons then t might feel better.
I don't have any problems with an N64 layout as far as preferences are concerned.

However, Putting the diamond in the upper right means that you can not have the layout curve, which means it will take up more vertical space, which arguably is the most limiting dimension currently.

This is why I would advise against the N64-style with the cross in the upper-right instead of the layout I have proposed.

-God Ginrai
 

EvilDragon

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Some issues I forgot mentioning:

* The space between the buttons-problems definitely has to do with having 6 buttons instead of 4 like on the DS lite. On the DS Lite, there are no accidental button presses since there's always a space where no button is beneath each other.

* If you take a Pandora into your hand, your thumb rests in the middle of the diamond shape  comfortably. This is not the case with the tested 6 buttons layout. Some buttons are awkward to reach - and after a while of gaming, your hand starts to hurt (I actually have the same problem with the Vita - my thumb rests a bit too high when I take it in my hand and after one hour of gaming, my hand hurts).

The Pandora has quite big buttons which helps in this case.

They are comfortable for almost every hand out there. This doesn't seem to be the case with smaller, more cramped buttons.

We're taking the layout with us to the Lange Nacht der Computerspiele to Leipzig today and get opinions of the visitors (and many Pandora users) there.
 

Natsu

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* If you take a Pandora into your hand, your thumb rests in the middle of the diamond shape comfortably.
But there are two diamond shapes and two middles to rests your thumb.
 
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