The case of the case.

comradekingu

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What happens when you go with small buttons and small spacing is you have to tip-type, and heel-toe doesnt work.

Which is doing some buttons tip, and some buttons  with the extended bottom of the thumb joint.

6 buttons is used by very few games where 6 buttons make more sense than 4+2, and its also not ergonomical unless you use tips of hand fingers, which the buttons end up being too small for.
 

Kiga

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IMO a secondary keyboard on the top right isn't a good idea. 6 aligned button like that isn't intuitive at all, I want the 4 main button to be aligned with the D-pad.

Also the video made by ED has already shown that it's uncomfortable.

A poll should be maked, I'm not even sure that most people prefer 6 buttons. Since the two additional button on ED's layout are apparently impracticable and that buttons and keyboard keys are the same, we should simply stay with 4 buttons and map additional buttons on the keyboard. Also the Pyra would be symmetric, I don't want the symmetry to be broken for 2 useless buttons.
 
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crosspoint

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Since the two additional button on ED's layout are apparently impracticable and that buttons and keyboard keys are the same, we should simply stay with 4 buttons and map additional buttons on the keyboard. Also the Pyra would be symmetric, I don't want the symmetry to be broken for 2 useless buttons.
This!

And we already have four shoulder buttons.
 
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cuetzpalin

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Since the two additional button on ED's layout are apparently impracticable and that buttons and keyboard keys are the same, we should simply stay with 4 buttons and map additional buttons on the keyboard. Also the Pyra would be symmetric, I don't want the symmetry to be broken for 2 useless buttons.
This!


And we already have four shoulder buttons.
That's what I think too: if you want to have 6 buttons, do it properly or don't do it at all.


Maybe I got lost in the thread, but, shouldn't we wait for the case improvements that the case designing company were making? Or maybe ask them if they think this is possible?


Since the molds of the pandora case are not being used, and they are producing a brand new case, I've always thought the pyra team was open to improve the case as much as possible. Meaning, being open to give or take a few mm from its dimensions, mantaining or not the same volume.


ED already said it's not happening, and even if I "don't buy" (so to speak) some of the arguments he threw, I understand he is the one taking the risks here and thus, the final decisions. And I'm fine with that.


I'll buy a Pyra no matter what. Even if they make it in that ugly blue ED seems to like very much :p


Joking aside, I feel there is no point in making more hacks without the professional opinion of the case design company.
 

crosspoint

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I like the two additional buttons in ED's design. Probably not that useful for gaming, but very useful for desktop tasks.
You would be able to use 4 action buttons and 4 shoulder buttons for deskop tasks - besides a whole keyboard. I'd say if those 2 extra buttons can't serve their main purpose, i.e. gaming, in an adequate manner drop them!
 
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fusion_power

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I'm also for less but bigger, comfortable buttons. You basicly only need 6 Buttons for N64 Emulation and this can be solved with the surrounding keyboard buttons or the right Nub as C-button replacement. Works well enough on the Pandora imho, have tested this with Lylat Wars that makes excessive usage of the C-Buttons, including button combos with other buttons. 4 Shoulder Buttons are much more valuable and useful there.

Or the other way round: you basicly don't need 6 Buttons in most of the other Emulations and Games so you always had to handly a cramped, dense and tiny button layout all tzhe time even when you don't need these buttons. ED's layout already is an compromise but at least the smaller extra buttons don't seem to interupt with the 4 main gaming buttons. So either ED's 6x layout or only 4 standard buttons like Pandora has.
 
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WizardStan

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can't serve their main purpose, i.e. gaming
Thank you for telling me what the main purpose is. Here I was going to use it to replace my Pandora which I had been using to replace my laptop for such mundane tasks as text editing and web browsing, things for which more readily accessible insert and delete buttons would be useful. :p
 

God Ginrai

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Some issues I forgot mentioning:

* The space between the buttons-problems definitely has to do with having 6 buttons instead of 4 like on the DS lite. On the DS Lite, there are no accidental button presses since there's always a space where no button is beneath each other.
 I'm not sure what you mean here... There is an empty space below every button in my layout.

* If you take a Pandora into your hand, your thumb rests in the middle of the diamond shape  comfortably. This is not the case with the tested 6 buttons layout. Some buttons are awkward to reach - and after a while of gaming, your hand starts to hurt (I actually have the same problem with the Vita - my thumb rests a bit too high when I take it in my hand and after one hour of gaming, my hand hurts).

The Pandora has quite big buttons which helps in this case.

They are comfortable for almost every hand out there. This doesn't seem to be the case with smaller, more cramped buttons.
 Honestly, this is subjective. My hand cramps when I use the Pandora, and it doesn't take too long to reach that state.

We're taking the layout with us to the Lange Nacht der Computerspiele to Leipzig today and get opinions of the visitors (and many Pandora users) there.
 All that is going to do is create unfair biases. We have told you that Askarus's layout is severely flawed and doesn't prove anything about an accurate layout.

I like the two additional buttons in ED's design. Probably not that useful for gaming, but very useful for desktop tasks.
That is exactly why we can't stand ED's layout. We specifically pushed for 6 buttons for gaming purposes. I don't have anything against it being useful for desktop tasks, but the reason we wanted those buttons in the first place was for gaming, so it should work for gaming.

-God Ginrai
 

comradekingu

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If your hands cramp up when using the pandora i think you might have lack of magnesium. I think everyone can see why the current 6button cluster isnt optimal, but still make valid judgements with that in mind. Which is a lot more real than a desire to replicate something without trying it.

The most important part is moving the 4 button cluster, not that its not symmetrical anymore. If people take kindly to that there is hope of it working out with better alignment, if not then its unfeasible. 4 buttons is the core, and thats what the bulk of buyers will be judging it based upon.
 
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God Ginrai

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If your hands cramp up when using the pandora i think you might have lack of magnesium.
Hrmmm... What kind of foods should I be eating to get replenish that?

I think everyone can see why the current 6button cluster isnt optimal, but still make valid judgements with that in mind. Which is a lot more real than a desire to replicate something without trying it.
 This is why I am asking for Askarus to make a version that uses the correct distances.

The most important part is moving the 4 button cluster, not that its not symmetrical anymore. If people take kindly to that there is hope of it working out with better alignment, if not then its unfeasible. 4 buttons is the core, and thats what the bulk of buyers will be judging it based upon.
While I do not completely agree with this, I do recognize there are many who feel this way. This is why I have specifically always suggested layouts that had the 4-button cross in them rather than a layout that mimicked the Sega Saturn layout perfectly. (minus the different sized buttons)

-God Ginrai
 

Natsu

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I agree. While I'm not saying it shouldn't be, I think most people would only think and/or see a Sega-like layout rather than this main four buttons.



Basically, I tried to make the other side more cross like while distancing the other buttons.
 
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God Ginrai

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Nope, it won't be biased if we let people check it here - because we tell them that the button layout is not perfect.

But not a single one today could even imagine that fitting six buttons within the given space is even possible in a comfortable way.
You tell them it's not perfect and then in the same breath you say that it's close enough to tell it won't work. That's exactly what you did in this topic, and I have a hard time believing you aren't doing the same thing at that conference you guys are at.

-God Ginrai
 
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EvilDragon

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Nope, I don't. I tell them that we're evaluating a six-button design and mention it's a manually made hack and therefore not perfect and ask them their opionion.

Seriously, unless you can proof me that the layout works, I consider the case closed.

Whatever we try to evaluate whether it does work or not is just being turned down by you.

If you're seriously interested, create that mod yourself (I can send you all the Pandora cases you want), mod it, send it to me and prove it will work.

We tried and all came to the conclusion it doesn't work, so if you seriously want it, don't waste your energy here but instead find a way to prove us with some physical dummy.
 

_jr_

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Thanks to ED and Askarus for making these tests. I'm happy that it seems like only ED's layout is feasible, because I'm pretty sure it would fit my usage pattern (shell, editor, etc.) much better than the other proposals. I think it would be perfect for me to map (keypad) Enter and Tab to the new buttons.
 

Natsu

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Sorry, but we all didn't come to the same conclusion. In fact, we see GG recent layout as feasible.

Space is almost, if not, the same distance as the 3DS. Except you have two diamonds instead of one. 

Also, their opinions may have be shifted by the presented layout into thinking that it can't be done rather actually thinking

it can't be done. If that makes sense. :lol:
 
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