The big Pyra keyboard poll

[comradekingu]

@DrHax: Typing ! should be shift+1, as per the standard.  If you have only shift and altGr to do standard punctuation, you dont need FN/meta/hacks for anything but inputting F-keys.  This means you can have shift on keyboard and shoulder, and AltGr on shoulder.

This is the most important functionality of shift, and If AltGr inputs the non-language symbols you dont need that on the keyboard part.

You then end up with having 4 shoulders that make things function like a normal keyboard. Also this is better for mediakeys.

The 2perkey option at the very least means meta (which is non-standard) for inputting symbols, in nonstandard places (letters) and losing out on AltGr+letters, which some layouts and some people depend on.

The idea of having shoulderbuttons input mediakeys directly when closed is based on thinking lid-close is a button event.

Mediakeys would then be  the purple F-ing key+shoulders    or    alternativly lidclose+shoulders.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

^ Standard huh?  Tell that to the wonky chip

 

[Askarus]

^ Standard huh?  Tell that to the wonky chip

Yeah, wonky chip!

(Why not go for a wonky screen as well? At least people would see that immediately)

 

[_wb_]

Why so many people in favor of wasting a key to get a double-width space?

Does it have any advantage? You still can hit it with only one thumb (unlike the space bar of a full-size keyboard).

It makes more sense (but still very little) to add a second space on the other side of the keyboard, if you ask me.

 

[Kiga]

I like have action buttons as mouse buttons, and nubs as move mouse / scroll.

Perhaps with the new buttons as home and end

I agree, since I plan tu use my Pyra without touching the screen, once accostumed I'll be able to click moving the mouse and since you can only push the nub when it is centered it would be an issue, plus there is no need for PgUp since you can use right nub for scrolling.

The perfect intuitive combinaison (IMO) would be:

Left nub as mouse and whatever

Right nub as scrolling and scroll button click

Left action button as right left click

High action button as right click (because it is more ergonomic than right)

Also I like the idea to leave action buttons without function label because I like hidden functions and so that we may could chose whatever we want for nubs/action buttons.

 

[rygD]

It makes more sense (but still very little) to add a second space on the other side of the keyboard, if you ask me.

Interesting idea, but I don't think I need it.  I am curious if the double wide people want it because it is easy to identify.

 

[Kiga]

Why so many people in favor of wasting a key to get a double-width space?

Does it have any advantage? You still can hit it with only one thumb (unlike the space bar of a full-size keyboard).

I voted "I don't care" since I don't know exactly where it will be placed but it can be more ergonomic since you can grip your Pyra in more differents positions because you have your thumb ready to push the space bar in more positions.

 

[_wb_]

Here is my first attempt at a compromise layout:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/52347d35841f93454a1528b3748e0f37

Note: the above layout has several properties I don't like, such as a double-width space bar, no Greek action buttons, no dedicated backtick(grave) key. It will probably also have properties that you don't like. It's an attempt at making most people as happy as possible.

 

[slaeshjag]

I really really dislike that the qwerty-row is shifted. I won't be able to type any of my passwords on that keyboard.

 

[fusion_power]

Why so many people in favor of wasting a key to get a double-width space?


Does it have any advantage? You still can hit it with only one thumb (unlike the space bar of a full-size keyboard).


It makes more sense (but still very little) to add a second space on the other side of the keyboard, if you ask me.

Do you know any common keyboard that only has a single width space key? It's SPACE and it needs space.  One of the most used keys so it should be bigger obviously.

And please don't make such big polls, it just scares people and we know that this will not be the last keyboard thread or even the last keaboard poll.  I doubt it will end in something useful, just let ED decide this stuff because there are just to many different opinions in the community. This will never lead to one layout that everyone accepts.

 

[comradekingu]

Making it bigger does nothing if its to the side. It should be more centrally located since its used often.

Having space as a bar-key is because it is centrally located to accomodate typing with both thumbs on a 105-key. That is the question you need to ask yourself.

When the answer is 'space off to the side'  the natural adaptation is to make space a 1-width key. Same as enter, same as shift, same as tab.

 

[rygD]

The layout makers can always look at ED's choices and give those more weight.

 

[comradekingu]

I give making sense a lot of weight. I didnt think these questions would give me any meaningful answers, and I dont assume ED to be all-knowing when it comes to layouts. He does make sense though.

 

[Kiga]

Here is my first attempt at a compromise layout:
http://www.keyboard-...a1528b3748e0f37

Where is the scroll button? It is very useful for exemple for opening links or closing tabs...wouldn't it make more sense to use scroll nub for scroll click and actions buttons as mouse clicks?

Making it bigger does nothing if its to the side. It should be more centrally located since its used often.

Agreed, one key before space would be better.

I doubt it will end in something useful, just let ED decide this stuff because there are just to many different opinions in the community. This will never lead to one layout that everyone accepts.

I think people who use this keyboard more than ED or less or differently have something to say, especially more.

 

[_wb_]

I really really dislike that the qwerty-row is shifted. I won't be able to type any of my passwords on that keyboard.

Yes, that is a very unfortunate side-effect of a left-aligned QWERTY row. Would you sacrifice your Scandinavian keys (I forgot who needs what, but three out of Ä Ö Ø Æ Å iirc) just to get a correct alignment between letters and numbers?


We could also make the rows go like this:


 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
Q W E R T Y U I O P

but that looks a bit weird to me.

Why so many people in favor of wasting a key to get a double-width space?


Does it have any advantage? You still can hit it with only one thumb (unlike the space bar of a full-size keyboard).


It makes more sense (but still very little) to add a second space on the other side of the keyboard, if you ask me.

Do you know any common keyboard that only has a single width space key? It's SPACE and it needs space.  One of the most used keys so it should be bigger obviously.

If frequency is a criterion, then we should make the E key a double-width key as well, and use half-sized keys for Q, Z and X.

Is space easier to hit on the Pandora because it's larger? I'm not convinced. If you can hit any of the other keys reliably, then why is your precision suddenly insufficient for space? Do your thumbs get larger when typing spaces?

On a regular keyboard, a big space bar makes sense because you use your thumbs (from both hands!) to press space, while you use your fingers to type other keys. A handheld keyboard does not work like that though.

The only advantage of a big space key on a handheld is visual recognition. As soon as you know where it is, this is no longer important.

* * *

Action buttons as mouse clicks: people are free to do that, but I need my Home/End/PgUp/PgDn keys.

 

[Saber]

The layout makers can always look at ED's choices and give those more weight.

Hopefully ED will change his mind on some of those choices.

According to the poll, he wants the layout to have the Q-P row shifted over to the edge to fit some foreign alphabeticals. Personally, I don't want the letters to be arranged lopsided but if people want it oh well. He also voted for no dedicated Tab, Insert, Delete(maybe), or Escape and he wants the two small action buttons to be plus and minus internally because it's too hard to resize a screen without them as primary keys. :blink:  

Why so many people in favor of wasting a key to get a double-width space?


Does it have any advantage? You still can hit it with only one thumb (unlike the space bar of a full-size keyboard).


It makes more sense (but still very little) to add a second space on the other side of the keyboard, if you ask me.

Do you know any common keyboard that only has a single width space key? It's SPACE and it needs space.  One of the most used keys so it should be bigger obviously.

And please don't make such big polls, it just scares people and we know that this will not be the last keyboard thread or even the last keaboard poll.  I doubt it will end in something useful, just let ED decide this stuff because there are just to many different opinions in the community. This will never lead to one layout that everyone accepts.

We have to sacrifice some extra keys because people for some reason would misplace the Spacebar if it was the same size as the other keys? We should make all the keys extra large then.   

I really really dislike that the qwerty-row is shifted. I won't be able to type any of my passwords on that keyboard.

So do I. I don't own a Pandora so I can't test it's weirdness, but if someone who does own a P1 would like to imagine the letters moved over to the left, it would be helpful to know their opinion if this change to the left was made and how usable it is.

 

[rygD]

I give making sense a lot of weight. I didnt think these questions would give me any meaningful answers, and I dont assume ED to be all-knowing when it comes to layouts. He does make sense though.

I meant that his preferences may have some influence on the decision for the layout.

Edit:

He also voted for no dedicated Tab, Insert, Delete(maybe), or Escape

Not voting for them does not mean he voted not to have them.  I took that section to be asking what keys do you find need to be dedicated.  I voted accordingly, and others probably voted based on their understanding or preference.  I initially skipped tab, then remembered I use it for certain key combos, and I don't really need delete or escape, but they are useful for the same reason.  I rarely use insert.

 

[sepulep]

Why so many people in favor of wasting a key to get a double-width space?


Does it have any advantage? You still can hit it with only one thumb (unlike the space bar of a full-size keyboard).


It makes more sense (but still very little) to add a second space on the other side of the keyboard, if you ask me.

I don't think its entirely rational either, but for me it feels wrong to have a small space button...maybe its because its used as resting position, or its just that it allows for a bit of sloppiness, or maybe its just convention -_-  

 

[slaeshjag]

I really really dislike that the qwerty-row is shifted. I won't be able to type any of my passwords on that keyboard.

Yes, that is a very unfortunate side-effect of a left-aligned QWERTY row. Would you sacrifice your Scandinavian keys (I forgot who needs what, but three out of Ä Ö Ø Æ Å iirc) just to get a correct alignment between letters and numbers?

I have since long given up hope on having space for such keys without modifiers. If the modifier is a shoulderbutton and enough blank spots are given, I can live with holding shoulder. It's already a lot better than the horrible compose mess of the pandora. Unaligned numbers and qwerty is a nogo for me. Though, I guess it wouldn't be a massive job to cut up a keymat and rearrange it properly...

 

[Saber]

He also voted for no dedicated Tab, Insert, Delete(maybe), or Escape

Not voting for them does not mean he voted not to have them.  I took that section to be asking what keys do you find need to be dedicated.  I voted accordingly, and others probably voted based on their understanding or preference.  I initially skipped tab, then remembered I use it for certain key combos, and I don't really need delete or escape, but they are useful for the same reason.  I rarely use insert.

Not to be nitpicky here rygD but it said "Which of these keys should be available as dedicated, primary keys?". If he selected some keys but not others then how could it be interpreted that he wants the one's he didn't choose?