Some News Of Things To Come...

[badwolf]

no i think thats just his inability to put a argument to rest

 

[Azalin]

Ahem. i hope you all realize that while Epicenter may be out of line sometimes, the last few comments, Especialy craigs, are actually making you look like bigger asshats than he is? I mean, if you can actually be bothered to insult him with some form of intelligence demonstrated, or argue his points with counterpoints of your own, then by all means go ahead.
But completely useless insults like "Maybe epicenter is using his l33t coding skills to push the message board to its limits instead." just serve to make you look like stupid little gits instead of the "highly intelligent individuals" you are supposed to be. >_>

 

[craigix]

highly intelligent... what?

 

[iignotus]

Just popping in to say that I'm better than all of you :lol:

 

[dcgms_parachute_account_]

Wow, epicenter is really lowering his standards. I've always thought better of you, kind of an optimistic DaveC. Take that with a grain of salt if you so please, I'm sure you have your own opinions of me

I do feel the need to comment about you saying Craig is a simpleton, etc.

First of all, how is he a fool who doesnt know how to run a business? He strikes me as someone who's very sly. He's on this forum as an active member, and because of this, has been able to pull in many more sales than if he wasnt around at all. He gets new members to buy from him as well, also by word of mouth. Give credit where it's due, he's a very smart businessman.


I cant believe this thread has turned to shit. Zodttd was just reporting some info about the emu, and now people are flaming each other and this is a big mess. I hope it gets closed soon.

 

[zodttd]

Craig provides the padding needed while waiting for a response from Epicenter and DaveC. This whole "better to just do a SNES emulator" thing has been around since the GP2X was released. Even better, the whole "psx emulation will never go faster than 5 FPS" comment from DaveC is old enough to be etched in stone. Version 2.0 of that statement now has been extended to "never be fullspeed". It was quickly upgraded to v2.5 when it was found that "boring 2D games" can run at those speeds. Version 2.5 includes the limited edition DaveC specification of what fullspeed means. I just want Epicenter and DaveC to show some proof. It at least gives them some time to come up with something new for Version 3.0.

It wouldn't be so stupid to just say such a emulator isn't possible, and keep adding new milestones to what makes it not possible...but to say SNES emulation is a better choice over and over again.

The only difference between getting a "fullspeed" (according to the DaveC Version 2.5 specification) SNES emulator and a PSX emulator on the GP2X is finding someone to write it.

Oh, and GBA emulation is very possible on the GP2X, Epicenter.
I avoid Nintendo emulators, but I could ask Exophase if he could be willing to give his gpSP emulator a go on the GP2X. gpSP is a GBA emulator he wrote himself (not a port) using a ARM -> MIPS32 dynarec. He has the advantage of already knowing ARM from this project, and that dynarec can be adapted to work on the GP2X. gpSP runs fullspeed on the PSP according to the Version 2.5 spec outlined by DaveC.

 

[zodttd]

dcgm: Sorry about the thread turning to this. It gets a bit fustrating though. I get done explaining how great the GP2X community is to someone who I would like to consider the GP2X as a platform to use for his project, and then have to explain what DaveC is saying.

Some news:
I'm looking for a SVN to get a new psx project started. I'm not the lead of the project, but I will be helping quite a bit. His project's goal is to have a psx emulator written from the ground up with portable/handheld hardware in mind. He has some very good idea's on how to handle the shortcomings of previous psx emulators, and has already written a dynarec for the project that is being tested currently. It lacks everything but the "core" of the emulator so far. But with our expierence in emulation, we can get it done. He's considering the GP2X currently, but does not have one and lives in the UK. He will be making the emulator specific to the PSP for it's first platform. The goal, ideas, and the whole psx emulator project in general is perfect for the GP2X, especially in the "fullspeed" area.

 

[gaterooze]

Ahem. i hope you all realize that while Epicenter may be out of line sometimes, the last few comments, Especialy craigs, are actually making you look like bigger asshats than he is? I mean, if you can actually be bothered to insult him with some form of intelligence demonstrated, or argue his points with counterpoints of your own, then by all means go ahead.
But completely useless insults like "Maybe epicenter is using his l33t coding skills to push the message board to its limits instead." just serve to make you look like stupid little gits instead of the "highly intelligent individuals" you are supposed to be. >_>

Whereas Epicenter's "You're a simpleton and your business is built on garbage... You make me fucking sick." is the work of a Rhodes Scholar? :blink:

 

[Rivroner]

Zodttd, there are a lot of positive and optimistic people that believe in the project of fullspeed PSX emulator
Thank you for all the work

 

[Dimension]

Ive only been around these forums for only a week or two. But I can't help but laugh at you epicenter. Really this thread made my day. Ive been programming for quite awhile now on many platforms and all the developers Ive developed with and dealt with have never talked in such a immature way. Which makes it even harder to believe you are THE expert at hardware a you talk like you are. Do you realize how people here look at you. I give you one thing everyone here knows your name. No offense but in my books its quite a lazy thing for a programmer to give up on a platform because the hardwares not good enough! Stop blaming the hardware and deal with it thats what a good programmer does. I know what its like to be frustrated with limited hardware. GBC comes to mind. I don't get why your still around the gp2x forums anyways, but thats just my opinion. By the way great job zod!!! Your work and thread for that matter should be filled with a lot more praise and alot less epicenter,lol Sorry epicenter but Zod does have very valid points and to be honest havent written a psx emulator but Id trust somene who's written one then someone like you who as far as I know just critisizes.

note to mods: please make an ignore epicenter feature(Threads would be a lot shorter,lol)

 

[Mudi]

I'm looking for a SVN to get a new psx project started.

I've got a hosting account that supports SVN, PM me if you'd like me to set you up one

 

[Ravnos]

Some news:
I'm looking for a SVN to get a new psx project started. I'm not the lead of the project, but I will be helping quite a bit. His project's goal is to have a psx emulator written from the ground up with portable/handheld hardware in mind. He has some very good idea's on how to handle the shortcomings of previous psx emulators, and has already written a dynarec for the project that is being tested currently. It lacks everything but the "core" of the emulator so far. But with our expierence in emulation, we can get it done. He's considering the GP2X currently, but does not have one and lives in the UK. He will be making the emulator specific to the PSP for it's first platform. The goal, ideas, and the whole psx emulator project in general is perfect for the GP2X, especially in the "fullspeed" area.

If you don't mind having to release your source, you could always use Sourceforge. At least that way if the project members move on the project can be easily picked up, and also it will be easy for people to port the end result to other handhelds that maybe you don't have an interest in. Just an idea.

note to mods: please make an ignore epicenter feature(Threads would be a lot shorter,lol)

This feature exists. Click on his username and then, in the "Viewing Profile" page, click on the "Profile Options" button. Select "Ignore User" and it will take you to a screen where you can manage your ignored users. His username will be in one of the boxes, so just click "Update Ignored Users" and you never have to read his stupid shit again. I added him to my ignore list and the board seems a lot less retarded since.

 

[Epicenter]

All these comments that 'a programmer never blames the hardware' are ridiculous. Perhaps some developers are the sort who cling to hardware once they get it, and squeeze every drop of performance out of it. Like 16k demos, or that 32x demonstration program that draws PSX-quality 3D, or Red Zone, the MD game that was basically a gigantic tech demo. I highly respect these works; anyone who talks to me frequently will have heard me laud them.

However, such a project, to be embarked upon, requires an intimate relationship with the hardware. The sort of dedication and persistence required does not stem from a platform the developer does not enjoy. The GP2X caused me too much aggravation for me to pour so much dedication into it when the overall experience could be better on a different machine, and the code was crossplatform and easily portable to any of a number of better-suited systems. I've already stated which systems those were.

Another factor you might not have considered is that a developer will not write code for a system if he feels it is futile and worthless to do so-- and after my experience with the GP2X's stick, I can safely say most players would not be having very much fun playing the game we set out to create. The stick would require us to make the game pitifully easy to compensate for the stick's shortcomings, and even then it felt imprecise and sloppy, making the whole package lackluster. There are few things I can imagine more depressing than writing a game that runs fast, with graphics that are impressive and great music and then have the controls be worthless. That ruins the experience entirely, and would negate the purpose of what we set out to do.

I'm not satisfied watching my work loop on a TV screen for hours like a demo programmer would be. If I could develop for the GP2X and never need to touch the controls, I'd probably stick with it. But as it stands, I do not see a sufficient reason to. But combined with the rest of the technical issues and GBAX/Craig's disturbing treatment of the entire GP2X situation as well as our personal dealings, I see no reason to progress further with that.

If you had been lied to and deceived as we were by Craig, you'd understand where I'm coming from. The rest of you slinging childish insults don't even know who I am, and just happened to see my name signed on a comment that said you might not be able to play Final Fantasy VII at 60 FPS, and this makes me your mortal enemy, apparently. You're not getting anywhere by doing so, but if that's what you get off on, have a blast. I won't be posting in any GP2X topics anymore, I'll leave the cage of feces-throwing monkeys alone. I'm sure it's much better that way.

 

[Jaguarandine]

...If you had been lied to and deceived as we were by Craig, you'd understand where I'm coming from...

What lies and deceptions? I'm sure the whole community would like to hear what you have to say here. Let us know, backup your statements with facts.

 

[Azalin]

Well considering that he's been doing that all along, more or less...

But yes, i too would like to hear of this rift that i've heard hinted at much lately.

 

[gaterooze]

after my experience with the GP2X's stick, I can safely say most players would not be having very much fun playing the game we set out to create.

Funny, I've had a blast playing Blazing Star on Neo Geo, 1941 on MAME, Super Aleste on SNES, Gunhed on PC Engine, Datastorm on Amiga, Alleykat on c64, etc etc... none of which were affected by the stick.

For dedicated GP2X games, shooters like Vektar, Noiz2sa, Powermanga, Kobo Deluxe, etc all play perfectly.

If I can play all of the above without issue, why wouldn't I be able to play Stargazer equally well?

(btw, you continue to willfully ignore that the Mk2 stick has improved since the Mk1 in both precision and dead zone--while still not perfect, is more than adequate)

edit: isn't the XGP planned to have an analogue stick? How is that going to give greater control for a 2D shooter?

 

[DaveC]

What *specifically* makes SNES possible, and in the same breath not PSX?

First the PSX has a 33 MHz 32 bit cpu where as the SNES had a weak 3 MHz 65c02 8/16 bit CPU. A big difference no? How many ARM cycles are eaten up just emulating the PSX Mips CPU alone not even bringing into the equation 3D, sound etc?

Now on top of CPU emulation comes 3D textured and garoud shaded polygons. The GP2X can't even do as many similarly rendered polygons as the PSX does NATIVELY let alone having to *emulate* the 3D as well as the CPU and audio. The PSX is just too complex to emulate, there is too much going on hardware wise. The much simpler Amiga and SNES is slow on the GP2X, what makes you think that PSX would fare any better? Not everyone can overclock to 320 MHZ on the GP2X either. Many of us can't go past 240 MHz and any PSX emulation is abysmal at that speed.

The SNES was a basic 8 bit 2D system with a VERY limited "mode 7" which basically could only scale/rotate 1 background image and no sprites.

You bring up PSX and N64 emulation on the PSP. What kind of CPU did those have? MIPs? yeah. What kind of CPU does the PSP have? Mips? yeah. Do you think that could have anything to do with the fact that N64 and PSX works well on the PSP?

As for GBA I would think that the GP2X could do that fairly well as they are both ARM.

All of this arguing won't convince many here. The way to prove it is do your PSX emu. If you get it running at full speed then you were right. If after all of the re-writing and optimising you can't get it near full speed with good sound in 3D games then we were right.

It's fun to see people talking shit like that

1) It's psx4all so it's not just the GP2X we are aiming at. There's lots of other platforms to target and several are ALREADY fullspeed with sound on a lot of games like the v43 and Zaurus.

"There's lots of other platforms to target "

That is the whole point here. The other platforms are more suited for PSX then the GP2X.

 

[Epicenter]

The MK2 stick is not more precise, and its dead-zone is the same. It is the old stick rotated. The XGP's control scheme is under consideration for change to a D-Pad.

Anyway, I am done here.. if you'd like to know more about anything, re: Me and Craig's problems, Stargazer, whatever, PM me, IM me (AIM: Epicenter713, MSN: epicenter713@hotmail.com), e-mail me (epicenter713@gmail.com) or find me in a non-gp2x topic.

I'll be writing an article about my overall experience so it may not be necessary. I'll post that when it's done.

Bye.

 

[evol]

What *specifically* makes SNES possible, and in the same breath not PSX?

First the PSX has a 33 MHz 32 bit cpu where as the SNES had a weak 3 MHz 65c02 8/16 bit CPU. A big difference no? How many ARM cycles are eaten up just emulating the PSX Mips CPU alone not even bringing into the equation 3D, sound etc?

Now on top of CPU emulation comes 3D textured and garoud shaded polygons. The GP2X can't even do as many similarly rendered polygons as the PSX does NATIVELY let alone having to *emulate* the 3D as well as the CPU and audio. The PSX is just too complex to emulate, there is too much going on hardware wise. The much simpler Amiga and SNES is slow on the GP2X, what makes you think that PSX would fare any better? Not everyone can overclock to 320 MHZ on the GP2X either. Many of us can't go past 240 MHz and any PSX emulation is abysmal at that speed.

The SNES was a basic 8 bit 2D system with a VERY limited "mode 7" which basically could only scale/rotate 1 background image and no sprites.

You bring up PSX and N64 emulation on the PSP. What kind of CPU did those have? MIPs? yeah. What kind of CPU does the PSP have? Mips? yeah. Do you think that could have anything to do with the fact that N64 and PSX works well on the PSP?

As for GBA I would think that the GP2X could do that fairly well as they are both ARM.

All of this arguing won't convince many here. The way to prove it is do your PSX emu. If you get it running at full speed then you were right. If after all of the re-writing and optimising you can't get it near full speed with good sound in 3D games then we were right.

It's fun to see people talking shit like that

1) It's psx4all so it's not just the GP2X we are aiming at. There's lots of other platforms to target and several are ALREADY fullspeed with sound on a lot of games like the v43 and Zaurus.

"There's lots of other platforms to target "

That is the whole point here. The other platforms are more suited for PSX then the GP2X.

snes more simple arch ?????
cpu WDC 65816/65802
sound Sony SPC700+dsp
Picture Processor Unit
DSP-1,DSP-2,DSP-3,DSP-4,S-DD1 chip,C4 chip,SA-1 chip,Super FX

 

[DaveC]

snes more simple arch ?????
cpu WDC 65816/65802
sound Sony SPC700+dsp
Picture Processor Unit
DSP-1,DSP-2,DSP-3,DSP-4,S-DD1 chip,C4 chip,SA-1 chip,Super FX

PSX:

MIPS R3000A-compatible (R3051) 32bit RISC chip running at 33.8688 MHz
with Geometry Transformation Engine and the Data Decompression Engine.
Bus Bandwidth 132 Mbit/s
Instruction Cache 4 kB
Data Cache 1 kB (non associative, just 1024 bytes of mapped fast SRAM)
Geometry transformation engine
This engine is inside the main CPU chip. It gives it additional (vector-)math instructions used for the 3D graphics.
Operating Performance of 66 MIPS
360,000 Flat-Shaded Polygons per second
180,000 texture mapped and light-sourced polygons per second
Data decompression engine:
Compatible with MJPEG and H.261 files
Operating Performance of 80 MIPS
Directly connected to CPU Bus
Graphics processing unit:
This chip is separate to the CPU and handles all the 2D Graphics processing, which includes the transformed 3D polygons.
Maximum of 16.7 Million Colors
Resolutions from 256×224 to 640×480
Adjustable frame buffer
Unlimited Color Lookup Tables
Maximum of 24 Bit Color Depth
Maximum of 4000 8×8 pixel sprites with individual scaling and rotation
Emulation of simultaneous backgrounds (for parallax scrolling)
Flat or Gouraud shading, and texture mapping
Sound processing unit
Features:
Can handle ADPCM sources with up to 24 channels and up to 44.1 kHz sampling rate

I don't count the games that have Super-FX chips (StarFox) or DSPs in the cartridge (Mario-Kart etc). I would not expect those to run very well either.

There aren't alot of those games. I am just talking SNES hardware itself.