monstercameron
Well-Known Member
its kinda funny, gph went oled on the wiz that reverted to a rather crappy lcd on the caanoo...was it quality control. pricing, high defect rate?
Screen for P2
- Thread starter Mr_Loon
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Early OLED had some issues in terms of quality, lifetime, and availability. LCD is a far more mature technology. So a few years ago, I would have argued against OLED and in favor of good old reliable LCD. But recent advances (by Samsung mostly) seem to have matured the OLED technology very rapidly, so I changed my mind.
@Franko: your designs are interesting, I love to see that kind of stuff, but it's probably not very realistic. It is currently impossible or extremely expensive to make large AMOLED screens, I don't think a 9.3" screen like what you propose is possible with current technology, let alone a flexible one.
@Franko: your designs are interesting, I love to see that kind of stuff, but it's probably not very realistic. It is currently impossible or extremely expensive to make large AMOLED screens, I don't think a 9.3" screen like what you propose is possible with current technology, let alone a flexible one.
Franko
Active Member
^ You're correct of course about the availability and pricing, now. Maybe in a couple of years? Tablets and large smartphones seem to be all of the rage, so maybe we'll see an influx of AMOLED screens in the new future. It's gonna take a while anyway to clear Craig's queues and pay back ED's investors. We still have to move a lot of Pandora1's. I'm mostly throwing ideas out there at this point in time. Never to early to dream. 
My first link (post #50 of this thread) was a quick sketch of a Pandora with an OLED screen with roughly the same size screen as we have currently. It could wrap down (closed position), remain open at any sort of angle, or wrap behind the unit (into "tablet mode"). We wouldn't even need to flex the lcd cable much - if at all - if we improve on the back "panel" make it rounded, tweak the video-out plug and wiring...
Also, I was thinking about how to keep the screen in a rigid, and non moving state (if you wanted it say, at an 110% viewing angle). You could have two thin, strong, yet malleable "wires" slid inside of tiny "sleeves" along the sides of the screen. So, it could be bended, yet retain it's shape/position. Maybe a serpentine-like chainlink sort of rod, but smaller, would also work I think.
...but for now, I'm still going to enjoy the coolest tech device that I've ever owned (my 1GHz Pandora). I still have a LOT to learn and try on the current version - to keep me busy for the next year or two, at least.
My first link (post #50 of this thread) was a quick sketch of a Pandora with an OLED screen with roughly the same size screen as we have currently. It could wrap down (closed position), remain open at any sort of angle, or wrap behind the unit (into "tablet mode"). We wouldn't even need to flex the lcd cable much - if at all - if we improve on the back "panel" make it rounded, tweak the video-out plug and wiring...
Also, I was thinking about how to keep the screen in a rigid, and non moving state (if you wanted it say, at an 110% viewing angle). You could have two thin, strong, yet malleable "wires" slid inside of tiny "sleeves" along the sides of the screen. So, it could be bended, yet retain it's shape/position. Maybe a serpentine-like chainlink sort of rod, but smaller, would also work I think.
...but for now, I'm still going to enjoy the coolest tech device that I've ever owned (my 1GHz Pandora). I still have a LOT to learn and try on the current version - to keep me busy for the next year or two, at least.
Grench
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OLED are likely to be expensive since Samsung can more or less monopolize construction and pricing of them.
However, 5" 1080p screens ARE starting to hit the off-branded phone markets, which means somewhere they're being manufactured in bulk on the cheap.
Example:
http://www.engadget.com/2013/04/17/zopo-c2-aliyun-os/
A $230 off contract complete phone with a 5" 1080p screen, quad core CPU, etc...
At that rate, the screen can't be all that expensive. We may be coming on a time when 1080p LED/LCD screens may be cheaper than 720p OLED screens simply due to the number of manufacturers and volume.
Don't get me wrong, I love the AMOLED screen on my Note 2. The component price for anyone without the name Samsung might be a bit much though.
However, 5" 1080p screens ARE starting to hit the off-branded phone markets, which means somewhere they're being manufactured in bulk on the cheap.
Example:
http://www.engadget.com/2013/04/17/zopo-c2-aliyun-os/
A $230 off contract complete phone with a 5" 1080p screen, quad core CPU, etc...
At that rate, the screen can't be all that expensive. We may be coming on a time when 1080p LED/LCD screens may be cheaper than 720p OLED screens simply due to the number of manufacturers and volume.
Don't get me wrong, I love the AMOLED screen on my Note 2. The component price for anyone without the name Samsung might be a bit much though.
Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
Franko, how is your bendable design supposed to connect to the rest of the unit? Is it meant to be wireless?
Folding half of it over the base seems really cumbersome to me.. you'd need a bunch of extra stuff in the case to align it and lock it in place, and you'd inevitably have some pixels that are visible but distorted near the fold.
Folding half of it over the base seems really cumbersome to me.. you'd need a bunch of extra stuff in the case to align it and lock it in place, and you'd inevitably have some pixels that are visible but distorted near the fold.
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Franko
Active Member
I was thinking that the wiring would come off of the side of the panel (it's shown as being on the left side on my sketch) and would connect/plug into where we decide to place the video-out port. The port could be on the side of the device or even flush within the rounded back panel, maybe. I'll draw up a few ideas later today when work isn't so busy. Essentially the screen is a separate piece from the main unit/1CP2. It doesn't need to be permanently attached to the base in any way.
Edit1: IMO, using any sort of wireless tech to beam the signal to the screen would be impractical - I'd stay away from that idea. I foresee a lot of bandwidth and connectivity issues with that sort of concept. The screen will still be very close in proximity to the device, so there's no need for going wireless.
Edit2: Also, if you look at a side view of the bendable OLED screen, it's very thin - I don't think that it'd be cumbersome at all.
Edit3: I'm not talking about folding a screen and damaging the internals/pixels, I'm just talking about "wrapping" or bending it around a contoured back. And it doesn't pivot or remain attached to the unit - it'd be a separate piece like I said. Gonna draw up some more detailed sketches later.
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Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
I didn't mean damaging the screen, just the geometric distortion you get from bending it.
thatgui
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Was I the only one thinking about that feature film length McGyver Episode on Mars ?
If the more expensive 720p screen would have better characteristics (as _wb_ mentioned: response time, dailight visibility, etc) than the 1080p screen, I would still vote for the more expensive one (if the price difference isn't that big of course)
Franko
Active Member
Well, I have no numbers do draw upon here. It's a relatively new technology - flexible OLED screens. I have ideas, spatially, upon how to orient the screens to maximize the potential of the "pandora2". It's just fun to explore certain models. I'm not giving up on the idea of these displays, like I said - they're the future of portable electronic devices.
I also have a fallback plan. If we run into a roadblock. I'll wait until the "survey" is complete and we know more.
I also have a fallback plan. If we run into a roadblock. I'll wait until the "survey" is complete and we know more.
Flexible screen designs are fun, but let's say that's something we can explore with the Pandora 3, if that technology matures in the next few years.
For the Pandora 2, I think we can safely assume that it'll have to be a rigid screen.
I really don't see the point of putting full HD in a 5" screen. Ghosting and poor contrast (grey-ish black) are much more important issues than resolution. I would be happy with a 800x480 5.5" screen if it has no ghosting, great contrast, and better power consumption than the current Pandora screen. A slightly higher resolution would be practical to emulate DOS/Windows stuff, and to be able to use desktop software as-is (without having to tweak the interface much). Something like 1024x600 (fits SVGA) or 1280x768 (fits XGA and 720p HD) would be nice, but does not seem to exist in small panels. Considering what is available, I would use either 1280x720 or 1280x800. But anything larger than that is not just overkill, it would actually be annoying. Full HD (1920x1080) on a 5-6" screen means that you have two options: 1) you work at a lower resolution and let the hardware scale it up (e.g. 960x540 assuming integer scaling), or 2) you have to use HUGE font sizes, scaled-up icons and buttons, etc. etc. to keep things readable and useable. That means a big effort to port software, because nearly everything assumes that a 12 point font is readable and a 32x32 icon is big enough, which is not at all the case on a 1920x1080 5" screen. Option 1) is kind of stupid, because you either end up using a lower resolution than with a WXGA screen while paying the cost of all those pixels, or you end up using a similar resolution with non-integer scaling, which results in slightly worse quality than if you had that resolution natively. Option 2) is also bad because it requires a lot of work on the software side with very little gain (more often than not, you'll have to scale up the source material, so you don't really gain any sharpness except for the text).
For the Pandora 2, I think we can safely assume that it'll have to be a rigid screen.
I really don't see the point of putting full HD in a 5" screen. Ghosting and poor contrast (grey-ish black) are much more important issues than resolution. I would be happy with a 800x480 5.5" screen if it has no ghosting, great contrast, and better power consumption than the current Pandora screen. A slightly higher resolution would be practical to emulate DOS/Windows stuff, and to be able to use desktop software as-is (without having to tweak the interface much). Something like 1024x600 (fits SVGA) or 1280x768 (fits XGA and 720p HD) would be nice, but does not seem to exist in small panels. Considering what is available, I would use either 1280x720 or 1280x800. But anything larger than that is not just overkill, it would actually be annoying. Full HD (1920x1080) on a 5-6" screen means that you have two options: 1) you work at a lower resolution and let the hardware scale it up (e.g. 960x540 assuming integer scaling), or 2) you have to use HUGE font sizes, scaled-up icons and buttons, etc. etc. to keep things readable and useable. That means a big effort to port software, because nearly everything assumes that a 12 point font is readable and a 32x32 icon is big enough, which is not at all the case on a 1920x1080 5" screen. Option 1) is kind of stupid, because you either end up using a lower resolution than with a WXGA screen while paying the cost of all those pixels, or you end up using a similar resolution with non-integer scaling, which results in slightly worse quality than if you had that resolution natively. Option 2) is also bad because it requires a lot of work on the software side with very little gain (more often than not, you'll have to scale up the source material, so you don't really gain any sharpness except for the text).
Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
I definitely think response time deserves special attention. Pandora 2 users will care about response time more than the average phone user, because we're more likely to be emulating old console games. Look at this screenshot for example (it's from StarTropics 2):
http://www.emuparadise.me/Nintendo%20Entertainment%20System/Snaps/Startropics%202%20-%20Zoda%27s%20Revenge%20%28U%29.png
As you move this will get scrolled at 60Hz. If you try playing this game on a screen with a poor response rate scrolling the screen will basically halve in intensity as you move around and the display can't keep up shifting from the bright snow color to the black outlines throughout the background. It looks like a total mess and makes the game very hard to play. A lot of old NES games look like this due to limitations in the palette, but part of it was stylistic - you can still find plenty of games on newer console that have a lot of thick black outlines.
I've looked at a huge number of ~5" LCD datasheets and almost all of them have poor response time equal or worse than Pandora's. They're much worse than what you get with desktop monitors or good TVs. As far as I can tell there's a correlation with power consumption. The few LCDs I could find with fast response time had higher power consumption.
Right now IPS is popular and preferred in a lot of mobile devices. They have good color reproduction and viewing angles vs other technologies, but take a hit in response time. Phone users generally don't care, and I can see why they wouldn't because when you're mostly viewing webpages or movies it isn't a big deal, and even for most 3D games it's less of a problem. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't be swayed by the flavor of the moment for phones because we have different needs.
http://www.emuparadise.me/Nintendo%20Entertainment%20System/Snaps/Startropics%202%20-%20Zoda%27s%20Revenge%20%28U%29.png
As you move this will get scrolled at 60Hz. If you try playing this game on a screen with a poor response rate scrolling the screen will basically halve in intensity as you move around and the display can't keep up shifting from the bright snow color to the black outlines throughout the background. It looks like a total mess and makes the game very hard to play. A lot of old NES games look like this due to limitations in the palette, but part of it was stylistic - you can still find plenty of games on newer console that have a lot of thick black outlines.
I've looked at a huge number of ~5" LCD datasheets and almost all of them have poor response time equal or worse than Pandora's. They're much worse than what you get with desktop monitors or good TVs. As far as I can tell there's a correlation with power consumption. The few LCDs I could find with fast response time had higher power consumption.
Right now IPS is popular and preferred in a lot of mobile devices. They have good color reproduction and viewing angles vs other technologies, but take a hit in response time. Phone users generally don't care, and I can see why they wouldn't because when you're mostly viewing webpages or movies it isn't a big deal, and even for most 3D games it's less of a problem. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't be swayed by the flavor of the moment for phones because we have different needs.
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Franko
Active Member
^ Very good points...I hadn't even factored in response time(s) yet. Like you said, the Pandora users will care about this more (due to the nature of our "special needs" ). I'm mostly an idea guy...not heavy into the technical aspects of things until I need to know. I usually learn fast, though. I'm "in love" with the current device that I have...and I can certainly see Grench's points in his "incremental changes" (or whatever it was called) thread. I'd actually be happy with keeping all of the current aspects of the current Pandora except for the main PCB and the screen.
If we're cash-strapped and sales drop off of the current 1GHz model, then we might need to go to defcon 5...which is code for my hand waving at you like I'm the Queen of England and me smiling a lot. You'll all look at me like I'm crazy...yeah, like you're all doing right now. I'm afraid to even think of our options until the survey results are in and a course of action is decided upon.
...anyway, we could utilize most of the current components...let Mr.Weston design a new pcb (or whomever wants to undertake such a task). We should learn from previous "mistakes" but also take what has worked into considerations. The wifi chip is too close to the CPU (IMO). It needs to be traced outwards and placed on the edge of the motherboard...let's design the PCB according to the case IF we decide on this approach. We can line up the ports to match the "holes" in the current casing to suit our needs. The DAC is phenomenal. Audio (on my headphones anyway) blows my mind and ears away. Crystal clear...and leaves me grinning ear-to-ear. Surely the guy (Weston again?) that decided on this must be an audiophile. Let's keep that (if it's viable and not a legal or availability issue). The new PCB should (of course) have the most advanced SOC available), If ARM v8 is too far off, then let's use the best available at the time that the OP Team decides to move onto the next project - be it exynos/snapdragon/MOS6502. Whatever is available and gives us the more bang for the buck at the TIME.
Oh yeah....the screen. Same concept really. What's optimal for us (that fits within the available dimensions) is fine with me. I'd like to see a bigger and better screen. Our current "lid" could accommodate a 5.5" screen (diagonally measured anyway). Like what (roughly) the two Samsung Note versions have used. There will be some affordable options in this size factor, I think.
The only piece of plastic that would need to be remolded would be the front panel/hinge piece. The OP team might need to redesign that piece anyway, to accommodate the thickness of a different screen and (re)placement of speakers.
Edit1: Ooops. I forgot to refresh...thought I was responding to Exophase...LOL.
). I'm mostly an idea guy...not heavy into the technical aspects of things until I need to know. I usually learn fast, though. I'm "in love" with the current device that I have...and I can certainly see Grench's points in his "incremental changes" (or whatever it was called) thread. I'd actually be happy with keeping all of the current aspects of the current Pandora except for the main PCB and the screen.If we're cash-strapped and sales drop off of the current 1GHz model, then we might need to go to defcon 5...which is code for my hand waving at you like I'm the Queen of England and me smiling a lot. You'll all look at me like I'm crazy...yeah, like you're all doing right now. I'm afraid to even think of our options until the survey results are in and a course of action is decided upon.
...anyway, we could utilize most of the current components...let Mr.Weston design a new pcb (or whomever wants to undertake such a task). We should learn from previous "mistakes" but also take what has worked into considerations. The wifi chip is too close to the CPU (IMO). It needs to be traced outwards and placed on the edge of the motherboard...let's design the PCB according to the case IF we decide on this approach. We can line up the ports to match the "holes" in the current casing to suit our needs. The DAC is phenomenal. Audio (on my headphones anyway) blows my mind and ears away. Crystal clear...and leaves me grinning ear-to-ear. Surely the guy (Weston again?) that decided on this must be an audiophile. Let's keep that (if it's viable and not a legal or availability issue). The new PCB should (of course) have the most advanced SOC available), If ARM v8 is too far off, then let's use the best available at the time that the OP Team decides to move onto the next project - be it exynos/snapdragon/MOS6502. Whatever is available and gives us the more bang for the buck at the TIME.
Oh yeah....the screen. Same concept really. What's optimal for us (that fits within the available dimensions) is fine with me. I'd like to see a bigger and better screen. Our current "lid" could accommodate a 5.5" screen (diagonally measured anyway). Like what (roughly) the two Samsung Note versions have used. There will be some affordable options in this size factor, I think.
The only piece of plastic that would need to be remolded would be the front panel/hinge piece. The OP team might need to redesign that piece anyway, to accommodate the thickness of a different screen and (re)placement of speakers.
Edit1: Ooops. I forgot to refresh...thought I was responding to Exophase...LOL.
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Franko
Active Member
USB 3.0? At least one full size SD card slot?
Darn it!....we're still on the "screen" topic...my bad.
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Franko
Active Member
I guess that nobody chuckled at my Atari 800 cpu reference...oh well.
How long do you think it will be before a FullHD (AM)OLED display with a fast response time becomes available?
I'm thinking that, if the P2 is going to have as long a product life as the P1, it would be a good idea to give people in 2018 as little outdatedness to moan about as we realistically can.
I'm thinking that, if the P2 is going to have as long a product life as the P1, it would be a good idea to give people in 2018 as little outdatedness to moan about as we realistically can.
monstercameron
Well-Known Member
Isnt the display on the gs4 1080p samoled?
It is.
But how long until they are available in small volumes to no-name projects like the pandora?
monstercameron
Well-Known Member
Good question, but I dont believe it will take long...samsung is already selling exynos 5250 to chinese customers
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