Populated Mainboards

[thatgui]

- many chips available

- state of Linux drivers (to avoid issues found on the Pandora)

- impact of casing

+ 

Hard to evaluate something untested !

+ 

Open or closed code on the userspace part, blob or non blob, space on the board, power consumption, powersaving features, master mode and other features

+

I know about possible factors, I am more interested in actual factors.

 

[Bosbeetle]

or which chips are being considered.

 

[Kev2442]

Hi all,

this is my first ever message here, as I've been following the Pyra for about two months.

I was already interested in the Pandora a few years ago, but now I'm most convinced in buying it.

I have a few questions I'd like to ask :

1) Don't you fear the Pyra may quickly get weak CPU-wise ?

I just discovered this chip and I think that could be a serious competitor for a future upgrade board :

http://www.mediatek.com/en/news-events/mediatek-news/mediatek-launches-64-bit-true-octa-core-lte-smartphone-soc-with-worlds-first-2k-display-support/

As it seems to include both CPU and GPU, along with 4G and DDR3, this may be an all-in-one solution, if only we had the price...

2) Am I able to use the Pyra as a true cellphone with the 3G module ?

Do I need my SIM card for that ? Any plans for 4G ?

3) I've been curious about Linux for a long time (Win7 gamer...) and I plan on using the Pyra as a test for a possible dual-boot/full change.

It seems that any Linux software is based on libraries, thus CPU-independent. Am I truly able to use every Linux program on ARM ?

Except for Wine, of course. Well, unless there's hope in WinRT libraries.

4) I don't remember of any indication of price, any idea about the 3G model ?

5) I have the following devices I may use on the Pyra, and I'd like some advice :

- A Celestron sun-powered rechargeable battery, also rechargeable by plugging it into a PC. I'm curious if the Pyra would charge it, or charge from it, or both for unlimited use ! ^_^

- An USB3 HDD.formatted as NTFS. I suppose I can use it as a main storage device (not a boot disk), however I'm curious if it can coexist with Windows PCs.

6) As I was wondering about 4G and CPUs, I didn't see where the RAM is stored : CPU board or main PCB ? Could we have just the CPU-board to change to upgrade both of them ?

7) Is there a stylus (like the Pandora) included or do we use our bare hands ? Can I use the screen much like a Wacom tablet ? Always thought of buying one, haha.

8) You mentioned DS-emu, what about 2DS ?

I guess it's both enough and everything I had to ask for now.

Well, I wish you best leg-breaking for the upcoming events, as I'm definitely looking forward to the answers.

Thanks for all the fish,

Kev2442.

 

[sebt3]

1) Don't you fear the Pyra may quickly get weak CPU-wise ?

The pandora's CPU is now age old compared to the lastest phone. Yet it can run games a phone cannot.

3) I've been curious about Linux for a long time (Win7 gamer...) and I plan on using the Pyra as a test for a possible dual-boot/full change.

As long as sources are available, the short answer will be yes.

- A Celestron sun-powered rechargeable battery, also rechargeable by plugging it into a PC. I'm curious if the Pyra would charge it, or charge from it, or both for unlimited use ! ^_^

Pandora could do both ways (depending on what mode the usb port is set to) So I guess the pyra will too.

I didn't see where the RAM is stored : CPU board or main PCB ? Could we have just the CPU-board to change to upgrade both of them ?

This is a SoC (system on Chip) So Ram is within the same die the CPU is.

Is there a stylus (like the Pandora) included or do we use our bare hands ?

Stylus included.

You mentioned DS-emu, what about 2DS ?

Way a few years before Exophase write this emulator . On a side note, we got Drastic mounths before its android release. And we have it for free

 

[Kev2442]

Thank you for the quick reply. I somehow manage to be more and more interested every time I check the news...

 

[Exophase]

Oh hey, I want a crack too.

1) Don't you fear the Pyra may quickly get weak CPU-wise ?

I just discovered this chip and I think that could be a serious competitor for a future upgrade board :

http://www.mediatek.com/en/news-events/mediatek-news/mediatek-launches-64-bit-true-octa-core-lte-smartphone-soc-with-worlds-first-2k-display-support/

As it seems to include both CPU and GPU, along with 4G and DDR3, this may be an all-in-one solution, if only we had the price...

I don't think this SoC actually has integrated LPDDR3, just LPDDR3 support. The wording is a little funny.

There's been a lot of discussion about which SoCs are realistic options and EvilDragon has talked to a lot of vendors. There are actually a ton of variables that have to align - first, the manufacturer has to be willing to sell to ED in low volume. This actually knocks out most from the get go, and some of the remainders don't want to sell for a device without some guarantee that the design will meet a certain level of quality. Next, there has to be enough available documentation and/or drivers to make a vanilla Linux distribution viable, which is tricky because most mobile devices only care about Android support. This is especially a delicate matter with GPU support where you have to work with closed source blobs across the board.

MediaTek has been approached before and they don't look like a fitting candidate.

2) Am I able to use the Pyra as a true cellphone with the 3G module ?

Do I need my SIM card for that ? Any plans for 4G ?

There's a SIM card slot, and AFAIK voice is possible.

3) I've been curious about Linux for a long time (Win7 gamer...) and I plan on using the Pyra as a test for a possible dual-boot/full change.

It seems that any Linux software is based on libraries, thus CPU-independent. Am I truly able to use every Linux program on ARM ?

Except for Wine, of course. Well, unless there's hope in WinRT libraries.

Like you say, Linux binaries can only be ran on the same CPU. If the source is available they can be recompiled, I would estimate that most Linux software outside of games has available source, but stuff like Steam games often don't.

WinRT on WINE is probably not going to end up much of a thing, and I think there's little interest in running WinRT-specific software anyway outside of maybe Office.

4) I don't remember of any indication of price, any idea about the 3G model ?

There is no official word but ED has given some figures and it sounds like something around $700 is to be expected. But I don't know if this includes 3G or not - I doubt that'll make a huge difference on price (< $30 maybe?)

6) As I was wondering about 4G and CPUs, I didn't see where the RAM is stored : CPU board or main PCB ? Could we have just the CPU-board to change to upgrade both of them ?

I have to contradict sebt3 a little, the RAM won't be part of the SoC or even on top of the package like with Pandora because the only available model of OMAP (5432) doesn't expose a package-on-package interface. But that doesn't really change anything, since the RAM will still be on the CPU board.

8) You mentioned DS-emu, what about 2DS ?

3DS emulation is only in its infancy for PCs, there is still a lot to be reverse engineered and implemented. So far emulation authors are taking a high-level approach similar to PSP emulation. From what I've been told it sounds like the requirements for 3DS emulation may not actually be that much worse than PSP emulation, if you have enough GPU power (I estimate that it'll need more GPU power because 3DS has a more advanced GPU). But this is just a very rough impression that on what I've been told that may itself also be a rough impression. And even in the best case scenario it'd probably be a few years off at minimum.

Personally I would feel kind of uneasy about 3DS emulation appearing today, with 3DS game releases still being very big and very active.

 

[WizardStan]

2) Am I able to use the Pyra as a true cellphone with the 3G module ?

Do I need my SIM card for that ? Any plans for 4G ?

They are planning on fully integrating the hardware so that it can, in the perfect world, replace your cell phone. We're not sure how the software is going to look, and you may look a little silly holding a clamshell "brick" up to your head to take a call so it might be worth also investing in something bluetooth.You will need a supported carrier and a sim card. You'll need to do your own research to find out if your carrier is supported or not. The module being used is the PHS8, and any company that uses the frequency bands 850/800, 900, 1900, or 2100 MHz should work just fine.

EvilDragon has mentioned plans to use the 4G module at some point in time, it is pin compatible with the 3G module which means it can just be swapped out (during manufacturing I mean, not after it has been soldered in place) but it costs twice as much and probably has a lot more restrictions that he's not ready to deal with. Let's see how the 3G sells first.

4) I don't remember of any indication of price, any idea about the 3G model ?

I think the estimate has been $700 but don't quote me on that. In reality no one will know until the final prototype is done and all decisions have been made, there's still a lot to figure out.

An USB3 HDD.formatted as NTFS. I suppose I can use it as a main storage device (not a boot disk), however I'm curious if it can coexist with Windows PCs.

Easy peasy. It'll have USB3 on an OTG port, you just need the right adapter.

This is a SoC (system on Chip) So Ram is within the same die the CPU is.

RAM is a separate chip, actually. The SoC contains all the key components like GPU, audio, etc... but the RAM and storage are both external.To answer the question, it seems the RAM is on the CPU board and the storage is on the main board. The default storage is some unknown size right now but it can also be driven off a microSD card (can't use both at the same time though, so you need to choose your pros and cons). The RAM is probably going to be 2GB because that's the maximum size of the chip, more RAM would require a second chip and there's just not enough room for it. There's also no way to just upgrade it because to get more than 2GB would still require preparing the traces (for which there is no room) if an end user wants to risk soldering on a second chip themselves. In the future different chips may become available and a redesign to the CPU board might happen to add more RAM, but I think you'll find that 2GB is actually a lot.

The cell module is soldered to the main board, there's again no easy way for an end user to upgrade it, although soldering it by hand is probably a little easier than the RAM, I still wouldn't recommend trying.

3) I've been curious about Linux for a long time (Win7 gamer...) and I plan on using the Pyra as a test for a possible dual-boot/full change. It seems that any Linux software is based on libraries, thus CPU-independent. Am I truly able to use every Linux program on ARM ?

Except for Wine, of course. Well, unless there's hope in WinRT libraries.

The Pyra will not be able to boot Windows at all, not sure if that's clear or if I misunderstood what you were saying about dual-boot so if I did I apologize.As sebt3 mentioned, short answer is anything with source should work, or be relatively easy to make work. Longer answer there's a lot of things that won't work because they are closed source (some games, skype, etc) and therefore can't be recompiled, and also a lot of things which rely on x86 assembly (mostly emulators) or libraries we can't use (openGL2.0; openGLES is fully supported, but not the desktop version of OpenGL, although lunixbochs has made a lot of progress in changing that)

 

[Silent-Hunter]

Is there any technical reason it can't run the ARM version of Windows 8? Or is it only for legal reasons? If Microsoft decided to sell Windows 8 ARM to consumers, would it technically be installable?

Not that I want it at all, yuck. I'm just curious.

 

[slaeshjag]

Windows 8 on ARM is increadibly locked down. It requires secureboot that is set up to reject everything but the signed windows 8 install. Windows 8 doesn't even allow you to run unsigned native software.

 

[Kev2442]

I was thinking more of using the WinRT libraries to help supporting DirectX on ARM, but I know it's nothing real.

As for the 3DS, I just wondered, based on the DS emulation and tech specs. I would do the same with GC/Wii, PS2 and Xbox.

I wasn't planning on 700 bucks, but it's not sure. Given the actual Pandora is sold at 400-500 euros, IDK about any changes in France, but that would sure be better. :lol:

I'm thinking ahead CPU-wise. I was thinking about selling complete PCBs as upgrades for both the SoC and RAM, but not anytime soon.

The dual-boot was meant for my PC.

I've run Windows ever since I became a gamer, and except for a few Ubuntu, OSX and Knoppix experiences, I'm not running Linux.

The Pyra was planned as a first long-time experience of Linux, letting me considerate a dual-boot on my home computer.

And I won't let you apologize, as it's my fault : had to be clear about it.

So, given the scepcs and expected price, I have to ask the following :

what are the pros and cons of owning a Pandora/Pyra besides high-end smartphones and ultrabooks ?

 

[Letalis Sonus]

Is there any technical reason it can't run the ARM version of Windows 8?

Win8 requires UEFI. AFAIK they make use of a UEFI-specific bytecode VM for platform independent drivers (EBC), so this is actually a hard-coded dependency that can't be hacked around. Additionally, secure boot is a must have. And in order to be "Win8 certified", a device is not allowed to have any debugging interface accessible that could allow compromising the boot sequence, e.g. to install a different OS. I doubt they would even sell it to anyone without certified hardware...
Burn, UEFI, burn!!1111

 

[Silent-Hunter]

But surely the ARM version doesn't? I don't think UEFI is compatible with ARM. ARM doesn't even have a regular BIOS.

 

[TrashyMG]

But surely the ARM version doesn't? I don't think UEFI is compatible with ARM. ARM doesn't even have a regular BIOS.

Okay even if it doesn't.. can you just go and buy the ARM version of Windows 8?, or even download it from Microsoft without some kind of Developers licence? And what games are playable on Windows ARM?

 

[Silent-Hunter]

That is exactly what I'm asking. Can ARM Windows 8 be installed on the Pyra? Microsoft may not allow it, but would it be physically possible?

 

[levi]

So, given the scepcs and expected price, I have to ask the following :


what are the pros and cons of owning a Pandora/Pyra besides high-end smartphones and ultrabooks ?

This is a question that's been asked plenty of times before, so please excuse me if I'm terse. A comparable smartphone will be cheaper, but it won't be yours to do what you want with. A Pandora is designed not to need a jailbreak or anything like that, so you don't lose anything by having that functionality. On the other hand, an ultrabook is more expensive and less portable, but is yours once you've paid the money (UEFI shenanigans excepted). Battery life is better too, in both cases, on Pandora and probably Pyra too (though we don't know for sure yet).

 

[TrashyMG]

That is exactly what I'm asking. Can ARM Windows 8 be installed on the Pyra? Microsoft may not allow it, but would it be physically possible?

Most likely not, specific OMAP5 drivers would need to exist and without sources there would be no way of doing this on our own.

 

[Silent-Hunter]

So only if Windows 8 was already available for a device using our SoC?

 

[ekianjo]

That is exactly what I'm asking. Can ARM Windows 8 be installed on the Pyra? Microsoft may not allow it, but would it be physically possible?

The question is, i think, what's the point ? There's almost no applications made for ARM Windows, no source code is available, and Surface has proven much more popular in its pro, x86 offering. Not sure what future there is for ARM Windows. On top of that, there are probably no games for it. 

 

[thatgui]

what are the pros and cons of owning a Pandora/Pyra besides high-end smartphones and ultrabooks ?

Thats an easy and simultaniously a tough one to answer as these depends heavily on how much value one binds to certain features:I'm leaving out Ultrabooks though as comparing them makes little sense, or do you compare notebooks and desktop pcs ?

Comparing it to high end smartphones, I think the aspect where the Pyra will really shine and outmach any smartphone is versatility, both in hardware and software. While some smartphones give you an MicroUSB port and HDMI over an adaptor (and in rare cases full USB througha docking station), you will get two fully capable USB2 ports (even one that supports eSATA) and even a fully capable Micro-USB3 OTG port, where the only limit is what (more or less) the whole Linux community has to offer, and of course an MicroHDMI connector too, right away. Or that practically your wallet determines how much storage you want to carry with you, the best you can expect from a smartphone is MicroSD Slot that is maxed out at 128 (?) GB. And last but not least, the controls. While there are attachable controllers of varring size and quality for smartphones, you get them built in and in addition to that a real keyboard.

Same versatility on the software side, while you can have slightly different "flavour" of the same OS on Android smartphones, you are still stuck with basically the same system, and often as not need to void the warranty in order to do so. I know that there are efforts on bringing Linux onto Android devices (like with the Shield) or some (I think silly) approaches with vncing into Linux that runs on Android, it will always be a side product or a proof of concept, nothing the manufcaturer will officially endorse. On the Pyra you will be a lot more flexible in that regard as (again) the Linux community is practically the limit.

The big cons are pricing (altough smartphones aren't that much cheaper), size+weight and "horse power".

Small Disclaimer: "The Linux community is the limit" is a little enthusiastic as there is still someone needed that brings it to the Pyra, which can be easy or hard or even sometimes too hard to try.

So only if Windows 8 was already available for a device using our SoC?

Theoretically no, as one could surely steal bits and pieces from drivers for other SoCs that share similar (or the same) components. But practically yes, as this person would need to have a lot of knowledge it that particular field.

The question is, i think, what's the point ? There's almost no applications made for ARM Windows, no source code is available, and Surface has proven much more popular in its pro, x86 offering. Not sure what future there is for ARM Windows. On top of that, there are probably no games for it.

MS anncounced that there won't be seperate version for RT, Phone and Desktop anymore in the future, so this may not be entirely true in the (far away) future.

 

[ekianjo]

MS anncounced that there won't be seperate version for RT, Phone and Desktop anymore in the future, so this may not be entirely true in the (far away) future.

So how do they run the same applications if the machines run on separate architectures?