[poll: vote now!1!!] 3G paranoia: Discussing solutions

[moxie]

Someone claimed it would be possible for the manufacturer to build in a battery in the module, I said no, that person said yes. And now I say: No, it's impossible, just believe me. You read the post from the pcb designer stating that the module needs 3.3A spikes, didn't you? And it's average power consumption (way lower than 3A*?V) is still much, much too high to be powered by such a small battery. And it /could/ be easily found when examining the chip.

If its said to be 3.3, in the "inside" it may actually require few microAmp and half a volt to work.
After all, "VillainTech" have progresses over the past few millenniums.


If even not 3G, but it still may implement a short-range transmitter.


And as i said, "few microamp" are currently available to wide public as a "Betavoltaics". Too expensive to be everywhere? Maybe because there is no "villain discount"?


And such a battery maybe extremely small and may keep the module transmitting for a serious amount of time. (+10 years sounds scary)

I thought about answering you in detail. But actually - just no.

OBJECTION! This argument makes no god damn sense!

Exactly. Hence the "no".

That is: Your argument makes no sense. It is impossible to make a good answer in detail because all your details are messed up.

 

[ZetaNeta]

Someone claimed it would be possible for the manufacturer to build in a battery in the module, I said no, that person said yes. And now I say: No, it's impossible, just believe me. You read the post from the pcb designer stating that the module needs 3.3A spikes, didn't you? And it's average power consumption (way lower than 3A*?V) is still much, much too high to be powered by such a small battery. And it /could/ be easily found when examining the chip.

If its said to be 3.3, in the "inside" it may actually require few microAmp and half a volt to work.
After all, "VillainTech" have progresses over the past few millenniums.


If even not 3G, but it still may implement a short-range transmitter.


And as i said, "few microamp" are currently available to wide public as a "Betavoltaics". Too expensive to be everywhere? Maybe because there is no "villain discount"?


And such a battery maybe extremely small and may keep the module transmitting for a serious amount of time. (+10 years sounds scary)

I thought about answering you in detail. But actually - just no.

OBJECTION! This argument makes no god damn sense!

Exactly. Hence the "no".

That is: Your argument makes no sense. It is impossible to make a good answer in detail because all your details are messed up.

Basically, there are atleast the electric field in the Pyra which may keep the module running.

 

[moxie]

Someone claimed it would be possible for the manufacturer to build in a battery in the module, I said no, that person said yes. And now I say: No, it's impossible, just believe me. You read the post from the pcb designer stating that the module needs 3.3A spikes, didn't you? And it's average power consumption (way lower than 3A*?V) is still much, much too high to be powered by such a small battery. And it /could/ be easily found when examining the chip.

If its said to be 3.3, in the "inside" it may actually require few microAmp and half a volt to work.
After all, "VillainTech" have progresses over the past few millenniums.


If even not 3G, but it still may implement a short-range transmitter.


And as i said, "few microamp" are currently available to wide public as a "Betavoltaics". Too expensive to be everywhere? Maybe because there is no "villain discount"?


And such a battery maybe extremely small and may keep the module transmitting for a serious amount of time. (+10 years sounds scary)

I thought about answering you in detail. But actually - just no.

OBJECTION! This argument makes no god damn sense!

Exactly. Hence the "no".

That is: Your argument makes no sense. It is impossible to make a good answer in detail because all your details are messed up.

Basically, there are atleast the electric field in the Pyra which may keep the module running.

Seriously? Ok, I'll bite:

You posit that there might be a hidden transmitter in the GSM/GPS module that might need "a few microamps and half a volt" to operate, and that might thus run an extended length of time from a hidden battery, a betavoltaics module or even the stray electric field of the Pyra. Have I gotten that right?

That opens a few questions. Off the top of my head:

1) What kind of semiconductor technology would that module use? As far as I know, the forward drop of a silicon NP junction is still about 0.7 volts, and I find it hard to believe that there is a useful amplifier configuration that would not need at least three junctions between + and - somewhere in the schematic?

2) Let's say we find a magical semiconductor technology that has a forward drop of 0.15 volts. That is awfully close to induced noise, though. In particular, as you yourself point out, inside the pandora where there's a lot of quick digital switching going on nearby. How would the module be able to reliably differentiate between one and zero?

3) OK, so we have really massive shielding and big fat (although tiny, so that they fit inside the module without arousing suspicion) decoupling caps. Fair enough. How will the secret transmitter transmit? I mean, you'd need an antenna of some sort, but the obvious antenna (the GSM one) will be tuned to the GSM bands, not the super secret villain band, whatever that is. Would ED get a module with two antennas and a note going "Oh hai, please connect this other antenna too - Not that it is used for anything, mind, just for fun, eh?". Remember, we just massively shielded the module from interference from the outside, which means that the world outside is equally shielded from transmissions from inside the module.

4) So let's say we solved this. We pressed a magic antenna pattern onto the outside of the module, we have magic decoupling of the antenna so that it won't bring in any of the noise we so carefully shielded against in number 3, and it is invisible so noone gets suspicious. We have "a few microamps and half a volt", which means we have access to a microwatt of transmitter power. Exactly how would this transmission get a range that reaches even outside the Pyra casing? Let alone somewhere where it could be unobtrusively picked up by anyone or anything?

Now, I'm not an electronics guy at all, so I usually keep my mouth shut about these topics. These things seemed too obvious, though. I'm sure that someone with more knowledge than me can pick out more problems. The thing is, though, that we're not talking "oh, they might have Secret Technology" kind of problems here - We're talking violations of the laws of physics. Which are usually difficult to pull off.

 

[Granitehead]

We're talking violations of the laws of physics. Which are usually difficult to pull off.

But they could just do their own private research and keep some twenty or thirty years ahead of public knowledge. There are surely some new things which they have already discovered which they use to do funny stuff without us noticing.

 

[moxie]

Possibly. But unless I'm completely misinformed, things like the forward drop of NP junctions depend on stuff like the energy levels of electrons in different orbital positions, and those are a bit difficult to mess about with. Likewise, half a volt and a few microamps are never going to get above a microwatt of power.

So: Possibly, yes. But not like ZetaNeta fantasizes.

 

[Granitehead]

Possibly. But unless I'm completely misinformed, things like the forward drop of NP junctions depend on stuff like the energy levels of electrons in different orbital positions, and those are a bit difficult to mess about with. Likewise, half a volt and a few microamps are never going to get above a microwatt of power.

NSA's secret fundamental research department has probably found a way to work around that little issue, considering how much money they get compared to CERN and the like.

 

[WizardStan]

Everything is possible with the power of government coverups!

 

[ZetaNeta]

We're talking violations of the laws of physics. Which are usually difficult to pull off.

But they could just do their own private research and keep some twenty or thirty years ahead of public knowledge. There are surely some new things which they have already discovered which they use to do funny stuff without us noticing.

Exactly.

Possibly. But unless I'm completely misinformed, things like the forward drop of NP junctions depend on stuff like the energy levels of electrons in different orbital positions, and those are a bit difficult to mess about with. Likewise, half a volt and a few microamps are never going to get above a microwatt of power.

So: Possibly, yes. But not like ZetaNeta fantasizes.

Magic. They should had already invented it. Who says they could not invent a capacitor good enough to feed the antenna while not in use, and same time, be small enough to be hidden in the module?


Recently, crazy technologies came more and more common...


And i took this info as a example. Obviously you can get more energy from the field generated by the Pyra. You got a battery near you too. You got GSM signal, which also can be used to get some low voltage.


After all, there should be technologies to convert air into energy, if "those crazy villains" are so smart.

 

[TrashyMG]

This argument is so dumb it's not funny, There is no point in the government to modify or hack or do anything secretive into the phone itself.. everything, voice/data travels through a network infrastructure that is much easier to get access to the information they need. People are so paranoid about their phones, yet use something like the Internet everyday without any issues..

 

[moxie]

Possibly. But unless I'm completely misinformed, things like the forward drop of NP junctions depend on stuff like the energy levels of electrons in different orbital positions, and those are a bit difficult to mess about with. Likewise, half a volt and a few microamps are never going to get above a microwatt of power.


So: Possibly, yes. But not like ZetaNeta fantasizes.

Magic. They should had already invented it. Who says they could not invent a capacitor good enough to feed the antenna while not in use, and same time, be small enough to be hidden in the module?
Recently, crazy technologies came more and more common...

The laws of physics say so. "A capacitator good enough to feed the antenna" - What does this even mean? I'm genuinely confused as to if you're actually attempting to say anything meaningful but are getting tripped up by language, or if you're just making stuff up as you go along.

And i took this info as a example. Obviously you can get more energy from the field generated by the Pyra. You got a battery near you too. You got GSM signal, which also can be used to get some low voltage.


After all, there should be technologies to convert air into energy, if "those crazy villains" are so smart.

What? Isn't the whole point of this that you're claiming that someone could have put a tiny transmitter into the module that would work even when the chip is powered down? Where would you get the GSM signal from, then?

And how, pray tell, would you get energy from the field in the Pyra? I do get what you're driving at, but do you have any idea how harvesting an electric field is done? How, exactly, would this be done undetectably from a small module? Do  you have any idea about anything you're blathering on about?

 

[WizardStan]

So long as you're afraid of technology that they might have but no one could possibly know about, what about the mind reading devices? Commercial applications are only just starting to appear, the ability to monitor certain brain waves and decipher those into usable signals. It can't possibly be a stretch to think that the NSA, with its seemingly limitless funds, could be decades ahead of current tech, able to detect brainwaves at a distance and decode the actual thoughts and images behind them, scattering such devices around cities, perhaps disguised as otherwise harmless cell towers, could it? Why would they need to listen to your words or track your phone when your brain tells them everything already?

And if that's so far fetched, why is it more likely that they've invented some form of energy storage so far advanced that it is practically physically impossible?

Do  you have any idea about anything you're blathering on about?

*shakes magic eight ball*"Signs point to no"

 

[ZetaNeta]

This argument is so dumb it's not funny, There is no point in the government to modify or hack or do anything secretive into the phone itself.. everything, voice/data travels through a network infrastructure that is much easier to get access to the information they need. People are so paranoid about their phones, yet use something like the Internet everyday without any issues..

I am just making up jokes (which are hard to argue about) which warms up the paranoids.


Its funnier than it sounds.

Possibly. But unless I'm completely misinformed, things like the forward drop of NP junctions depend on stuff like the energy levels of electrons in different orbital positions, and those are a bit difficult to mess about with. Likewise, half a volt and a few microamps are never going to get above a microwatt of power.


So: Possibly, yes. But not like ZetaNeta fantasizes.

Magic. They should had already invented it. Who says they could not invent a capacitor good enough to feed the antenna while not in use, and same time, be small enough to be hidden in the module?
Recently, crazy technologies came more and more common...

The laws of physics say so. "A capacitator good enough to feed the antenna" - What does this even mean? I'm genuinely confused as to if you're actually attempting to say anything meaningful but are getting tripped up by language, or if you're just making stuff up as you go along.

And i took this info as a example. Obviously you can get more energy from the field generated by the Pyra. You got a battery near you too. You got GSM signal, which also can be used to get some low voltage.


After all, there should be technologies to convert air into energy, if "those crazy villains" are so smart.

What? Isn't the whole point of this that you're claiming that someone could have put a tiny transmitter into the module that would work even when the chip is powered down? Where would you get the GSM signal from, then?

And how, pray tell, would you get energy from the field in the Pyra? I do get what you're driving at, but do you have any idea how harvesting an electric field is done? How, exactly, would this be done undetectably from a small module? Do  you have any idea about anything you're blathering on about?

I mean you may collect energy while the module is powered, and use it later on.


Sorry if i am not really good in terminology and "deep physics"... I am just a relaxed "bro" sysadmin, who likes to add more and more options to GCC till he nosebleeds


I meant technologies similar to "Ambient backscatter". This can efficiently power the module, and transmit the data.


That was a part of my "NSA knows what you dont about the physics" epic speech targeted at scaring the paranoids.

 

[moxie]

Or, even less hypothetically: The Pyra itself will be a stronger transmitter than the proposed microwatt secret villain thingie with the magic power source. The very act of the processor running creates electromagnetic waves that propagate quite some distance. We already have seen a scientific paper where the researchers managed to reconstruct encryption keys from the electromagnetic radiation of the processor doing the decryption. Boost that with some evil government magic and twenty years of hidden knowledge, and you'll have the NSA identifying your pandora at distance, using just the EM fingerprint of your processor.

 

[ZetaNeta]

Or, even less hypothetically: The Pyra itself will be a stronger transmitter than the proposed microwatt secret villain thingie with the magic power source. The very act of the processor running creates electromagnetic waves that propagate quite some distance. We already have seen a scientific paper where the researchers managed to reconstruct encryption keys from the electromagnetic radiation of the processor doing the decryption. Boost that with some evil government magic and twenty years of hidden knowledge, and you'll have the NSA identifying your pandora at distance, using just the EM fingerprint of your processor.

In my headphones, i can hear how i move the mouse. And its obvious that the sounds are comming not from the mouse.

 

[moxie]

Yes, and the ambient backscatter technique does require a rather larger and more conspicuous antenna, and is able to communicate with other devices a few feet away...

 

[ZetaNeta]

Yes, and the ambient backscatter technique does require a rather larger and more conspicuous antenna, and is able to communicate with other devices a few feet away...

Ok, ok, but what says you cant use the existing antenna?

 

[moxie]

Yes, and the ambient backscatter technique does require a rather larger and more conspicuous antenna, and is able to communicate with other devices a few feet away...

Ok, ok, but what says you cant use the existing antenna?

...because it is of the wrong resonant frequency? And that it still won't work as long as you don't walk around with a government spy trailing you a few feet away?

 

[ZetaNeta]

Yes, and the ambient backscatter technique does require a rather larger and more conspicuous antenna, and is able to communicate with other devices a few feet away...

Ok, ok, but what says you cant use the existing antenna?

...because it is of the wrong resonant frequency? And that it still won't work as long as you don't walk around with a government spy trailing you a few feet away?

If we didnt care about the crazy paranoids, this topic would have ended few pages ago.


But because we care, what exactly prevents government from placing the invisible nano-receivers in the air, effectively forming a giant spy-net listening to you PSU, and decoding you private keys?


May we stop? I am tired of saying crazy stuff only snowden-fangirl will actually care about.


Lets just assume that we dont care if our module spies on us.

 

[klapse]

There are a lot of weaknesses to exploit, even in open-source OSes. Getting a villain into the kernel development cycle is not impossible. Getting a villian to put in a buffer overflow to jpg, gif, png or mp3 libraries is another option. Getting a villian to backdoor a webbrowser is yet another.

Then there are the telecoms. Getting a villain to work in the network administration of a telecom is possible. Forcing a telecom to install filters is being done.

Despite there being so many ways to compromise a device, I think the hardware-LED modem activity light is a good idea. I once identified a hacked system based on the network activity light of one of my ethernet cards. The Pyra would also benefit from a LED showing network activity over WIFI.

 

[WizardStan]

I think the hardware-LED modem activity light is a good idea

It's not an activity LED, it's an on/off LED only. And would it really be that much more of a benefit for it to be hardwired vs software controlled?