[poll: vote now!1!!] 3G paranoia: Discussing solutions

[slaeshjag]

Hmm... I've used mainly SSH over a unregistered pre-paid SIM for years, and I haven't noticed anything?

 

[WizardStan]

I've used mainly SSH over a unregistered pre-paid SIM for years

They're talking about those pre-paid phones you can buy from Walmart. Presumably, despite the SIM being pre-paid, you still have some kind of account with the carrier, no? Something that links the phone number to your name in their records?

 

[slaeshjag]

No. The kind they hand out on the streets. You can then buy re-fill with cash in store (although I usually do that online because stores are meh.)

I said "unregistered" SIM. That means they do not have my name in their records. Although as of late, that means I can't use it to buy bus tickets etc (you need it registered to pay with it, kinda makes sense I guess.)

 

[moxie]

I sometimes think that other countries telephone markets must be very different from Swedens.

 

[ZetaNeta]

And no... there are "almost" universal chips out there which work "almost everywhere".

No, the one that he's chosen is the PHS8 from Gemalto. This has been stated several times through this thread. It comes in two flavours: PHS8-E for European and PHS8-US for North American standards. There's also a -P which is the "universal" you're talking about but it costs almost twice as much. This isn't different "versions" the way that different CPUs would require completely different designs, the chips are all 100% compatible, all that is required to populate a different one is to change the reel, the program for placing it is exactly identical. Not populating it is equally as simple, you just remove it from the machine and it doesn't get placed.
The reason they're doing the SoC on module is because SoCs are not (usually) pin compatible: using a different processor requires redesigning the board almost entirely from scratch, and it is much easier to redesign a 2" board than a 6" one. There is no such requirement for the cell modules, they can simply be placed and removed and swapped in the pick and place machine. Gemalto actually makes older GPRS only versions and a newer line of LTE chips and they are all, every single one, forwards and backwards compatible, a different reel of parts can be placed in and the machine will have no idea whether it is populating a GPRS, UMTS, or LTE module because as far as it is concerned they are all identical.

I see that 3G chips cant be just expensive enough to think whether to put it or not. (I may be wrong)

You are wrong. As I've said several times, it is very simple to not have a part included. There is no reason for him not to stock at least a few. The parts can be bought in smaller quantities, 10s even, so it's not like he needs to buy 1000 of them at a time and try to force people to take them.

So, i have some reasons to say that a "normal" charging circuit wont let the battery blow if you short the power of a single component.

You're probably talking about things you have no idea about again, using the wrong words most likely. A "short" is where you connect the positive terminal to the negative terminal. If you do this it will blow up the battery; at best it will blow a well placed fuse, at worst it will blow the battery. It is highly unlikely that they will place a fuse on the line because they have no reason to expect it to be shorted. This has nothing to do with the charge circuit.

1. Buying alot of 1 chips is cheaper than  worrying with 2 chips. You just dont understand the importance of those "bulk discounts" when it goes for big quantities.


2. He isnt doing them "on order". He have production lines, making tons of those Pyras. He needs to guess *amount of variants go here* as much as he needs now about the demand, otherwise raise the price.

I estimate that the result of this may go higher than the ~30 euros difference we are talking about in here.


Well, maybe for some people this price doesnt really seem cheap


I would prefer a -P version, as i wanna have maximum possibilities. (Same reason i "unlocked" my wifi module to use all available channels, instead of the ones allowed by the law)


*Some other facts were here, but are left for next post if such shall be*


Are you powering all the components on a single "wire"? With all the same voltage and current? No. Otherwise i am "amazed" with you "design abilities".

 

[ZetaNeta]

If we are so much after paranoia: http://www.erikyyy.de/tempest/
Cant there be anything in the SoC, or the LCD driver.... or any point in the video output system to integrate such a technology.
Seems like a proper implementation can be easily hardcoded even into a cheap microcontroller.
 

I disagree. There are alot of energy sources which are small enough to power a specially designed device. (After all, if you put a battery there, most probably you are after designing it too)

After all, betavoltaics can keep you with a bunch of microAmp "for some lifetimes"

 

 
You need a similar LED for wifi (and maybe even BT) then, because those can also be used to track you. And of course you should never enable any of them, because the second you enable one of them, who knows what kind of spy data they start sending to the NSA.
 
But even with such LEDs, how can you be sure that the LED doesn't blink while you're not looking? If you're assuming that the module and/or the OS is compromised enough to lie about the 3G power status, then it's not a big stretch to imagine that it uses some kind of method to do its dirty spying business while you're not looking.
 
And if the module is evil enough to lie about being on or off, then maybe it's also evil enough to have a tiny battery in it that can store just enough power to send some tracking data every once in a while without needing external power (which would turn on the LED).

I agree, for it to really make sense we would need to be able to switch off all forms of wireless comunications.
I don't think an internal battery is plausible, would be easy to find and wouldn't store enough energy.
A hardwired LED is useless, because you might miss it going on for a short while.

Edit: Oops, merge please.

To be fair, the paranoia is understandable.

what? why? what are they doing that tracing them is necessary?

http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/

out of 7.2 billion people of this world they think that some government somewhere is desperate to track them?

if "they" wanted to track a person there is enough information available without GPS/wifi . every time you use a eftpos etc.... oops i just increased the paranoia.

They can read you mind, but we are here just to increase the demand in the market of the "Idiotic paranoids"
 

so what are you doing that you think you will be attacked? what is so special about you that someone would go to the lengths needed to hack a very niche device just to track you? if you are not breaking any laws why be afraid of some unspecified person tracing your every movement?
 
as has been stated again and again. dont buy the damn module in your PYRA.

Since you apparently having nothing to hide, please post your credit card number below.

As always a rule of the god: "He knows everything, but he is in no need of doing anything". And it applies to any organization powerful enough.
"Do you mind a stone knowing all you perverted thoughts, while it wont change anything at all?"

There are overpowered enemies,  and you need to think: If they got root access to my main server, what should they do?
And there are underpowered enemies, against which, a proper encryption should work.

Thats why i got SELinux. It wont protect me from ones who anyway can remotely inject/dump instructions into/from myPentium, but it will protect me from the "every random IP in china or romania".
I am free to give a CC number to my bank, but not to my neighbor. (At least because bank says that in the contract)
 

I have heard that using prepaid cell phones makes you a bigger target to tracking since the bad people use prepaid phones, so if that were true, wouldn't it also be plausible to think that people who turn on a cell radio for short periods would get looked at more closely?

Even without paranoia, a engineer probably will take a look at a customer who nonstop connects/disconnects, as that may be a technical problem. (In the head of the user maybe )
 

Hmm... I've used mainly SSH over a unregistered pre-paid SIM for years, and I haven't noticed anything?

You understand that no matter the SSH connection, it doesnt encrypt where you tunnel is located :3
 

I sometimes think that other countries telephone markets must be very different from Swedens.

In Russia, sometimes you can find same things where you dont need anyones passports with you.
From another side, we dont have prepaid cards...

 

[WizardStan]

Buying alot of 1 chips is cheaper than  worrying with 2 chips. You just dont understand the importance of those "bulk discounts" when it goes for big quantities.

I do understand. I can guarantee I understand far better than you do.

He isnt doing them "on order". He have production lines, making tons of those Pyras. He needs to guess *amount of variants go here* as much as he needs now about the demand, otherwise raise the price.

Indeed this is true. What relevance does that have with anything I said?

I estimate that the result of this may go higher than the ~30 euros difference we are talking about in here.

60 Euros. The region specific modules are 60 Euros, the -P "world" version is 100 Euros.
None of this has any relevance though, as EvilDragon has said himself (as was pointed out to you several times) that the module will be optional. However he chooses to do it is his business but I have absolutely zero doubt that it is not only possible but highly practical.

Are you powering all the components on a single "wire"? With all the same voltage and current?

The fact you're asking about "same current" automatically demonstrates you don't fully understand electricity. As for "same voltage", no, there are regulators in place on certain rails to ensure the voltage remains constant. They're still attached to the battery though, it's still a positive and a negative terminal, and when you put these together (eg, shorting it) you get "infinite" amperage which will do no insignificant damage.

 

[ZetaNeta]

Buying alot of 1 chips is cheaper than  worrying with 2 chips. You just dont understand the importance of those "bulk discounts" when it goes for big quantities.

I do understand. I can guarantee I understand far better than you do.

He isnt doing them "on order". He have production lines, making tons of those Pyras. He needs to guess *amount of variants go here* as much as he needs now about the demand, otherwise raise the price.

Indeed this is true. What relevance does that have with anything I said?

I estimate that the result of this may go higher than the ~30 euros difference we are talking about in here.

60 Euros. The region specific modules are 60 Euros, the -P "world" version is 100 Euros.

None of this has any relevance though, as EvilDragon has said himself (as was pointed out to you several times) that the module will be optional. However he chooses to do it is his business but I have absolutely zero doubt that it is not only possible but highly practical.

Are you powering all the components on a single "wire"? With all the same voltage and current?

The fact you're asking about "same current" automatically demonstrates you don't fully understand electricity. As for "same voltage", no, there are regulators in place on certain rails to ensure the voltage remains constant. They're still attached to the battery though, it's still a positive and a negative terminal, and when you put these together (eg, shorting it) you get "infinite" amperage which will do no insignificant damage.

"Not populating" a component does make a new variation of a console, and you call it "so easy and cheap to do".

100eur for a -P?!?! Are we talking about the same module? PHS8-P costs 69eur without bulk and with VAT.


PHS8-E costs 62eur


Where you got you info???

Well, i been in doubt whenever to add it. But i added it. I didnt really work hard on my post XD


Well, i am just trying to use all my knowledge on electricity (Yeah, i failed with current XDDD), to support that i used to short powered elements on arm boards, in laptops... in quite a number of places.

 

[_jr_]

All the strawmen erected in this thread don't change the fact, that the relevant problem isn't some theoretical possibility, but the actual leakage of private information (i.e. location) inherent in current cell technology (which doesn't invalidate its general usefulness; it's just the way it is built and operated).


This actually becomes more of a problem for feature rich systems. A dumb phone can simply be switched off and the battery removed whenever the phone functions are not needed, but if the phone has other uses this is less of an option.


And while the privacy leakage of WIFI is not comparable (not even close), I wouldn't mind having similar treatment for all wireless communication modules. But if a switch or hardwired led isn't practical, it isn't the end of the world. (Though much more useful to me than a camera or a secondary screen; and definitely much cheaper to design and build than any of those gimmicks).

 

[ZetaNeta]

All the strawmen erected in this thread don't change the fact, that the relevant problem isn't some theoretical possibility, but the actual leakage of private information (i.e. location) inherent in current cell technology (which doesn't invalidate its general usefulness; it's just the way it is built and operated).

This actually becomes more of a problem for feature rich systems. A dumb phone can simply be switched off and the battery removed whenever the phone functions are not needed, but if the phone has other uses this is less of an option.

And while the privacy leakage of WIFI is not comparable (not even close), I wouldn't mind having similar treatment for all wireless communication modules. But if a switch or hardwired led isn't practical, it isn't the end of the world. (Though much more useful to me than a camera or a secondary screen; and definitely much cheaper to design and build than any of those gimmicks).

More useful than a camera? Ilold

 

[WizardStan]

"Not populating" a component does make a new variation of a console, and you call it "so easy and cheap to do".

Whatever you want to call it, "new variation" or anything else, is irrelevant; this whole thing stemmed from when you asserted that you couldn't see EvilDragon producing a version without the module despite the fact that it is trivial from a production standpoint to not include it and he's already said on more than one occasion that it will be optional.

100eur for a -P?!?! Are we talking about the same module?

I was wrong, I confused myself with the PLS8. Sorry. It still doesn't change the actual point though.

Well, i am just trying to use all my knowledge on electricity (Yeah, i failed with current XDDD), to support that i used to short powered elements on arm boards, in laptops... in quite a number of places

And I am saying again, if you did something to disable a part that didn't result in damage to other parts of the system then what you did was not "short" them. I have no idea what you did but "short" is not the word you're looking for. Connecting the ground directly to the power rail will do very bad things to more than just one component.

 

[leathco]

I have faith in the community that first of all, none of our devs would create a nefarious app that would take advantage of 3G, and if someone did, it would be discovered and pulled rather quickly. 

I for one can't wait for Pyra and 3G is a huge plus in my book.  My hopes are to pick up a SIM card and at least be able to use it for web browsing on the go without needing my wireless hotspot.  It would be even better if Pyra could make calls, and I could just keep it in my pocket and use a bluetooth headset for making calls, than just pull out my Pyra for text messaging or data use.  I like my Android phone for this, but having a physical keyboard, a nice powerful CPU and a full FIrefox browser would definately replace my aging Evo 3D.  I was thinking about upgrading to the Samsung Desire, but I'll keep rocking my current phone for the next year or two if Pyra can double as a phone.

 

[Granitehead]

inherent in current cell technology

But only while it's on. And the module has an off switch built in. So unless the module manufacturer screws you, it can actually easily be turned off.Any external switch or power monitoring would be just for the case that the manufacturer of the module built something in which can power the module on despite the internal switch being in the off position.

Someone claimed it would be possible for the manufacturer to build in a battery in the module, I said no, that person said yes. And now I say: No, it's impossible, just believe me. You read the post from the pcb designer stating that the module needs 3.3A spikes, didn't you? And it's average power consumption (way lower than 3A*?V) is still much, much too high to be powered by such a small battery. And it /could/ be easily found when examining the chip.

 

[ZetaNeta]

"Not populating" a component does make a new variation of a console, and you call it "so easy and cheap to do".

Whatever you want to call it, "new variation" or anything else, is irrelevant; this whole thing stemmed from when you asserted that you couldn't see EvilDragon producing a version without the module despite the fact that it is trivial from a production standpoint to not include it and he's already said on more than one occasion that it will be optional.

100eur for a -P?!?! Are we talking about the same module?

I was wrong, I confused myself with the PLS8. Sorry. It still doesn't change the actual point though.

Well, i am just trying to use all my knowledge on electricity (Yeah, i failed with current XDDD), to support that i used to short powered elements on arm boards, in laptops... in quite a number of places

And I am saying again, if you did something to disable a part that didn't result in damage to other parts of the system then what you did was not "short" them. I have no idea what you did but "short" is not the word you're looking for. Connecting the ground directly to the power rail will do very bad things to more than just one component.

Just saying that this maybe so expensive to "do a simple thing", that the whole price of the chip may be covered.

Instead of 1, universal console, we are to get: No3G, USA, EUR, JAP.

I am scared that the prices for maintaining (not making, as you said, its just as easy as not populating it) all those variants will be higher than the price of the PHS8-U by it self.

Unless paranoid people (+25% of the forums) are ready to pay extra for just not having the module (and make the normal people pay even more), i dont really see the reason. And i hope ED understands that too.

I hope you still mean that we will get PHS8, not PLS8. PLS8 seems to be much worser for much bigger price.

~60-70 eur against 100? It only makes my first point stronger.

I cant find regional modules sold separately, can you help me find a price for em please? (No sarcasm, my google-fu really fails me)

For example, when i put a screwdriver between the - and + legs of a diode, how its called?

Or maybe connecting together - and + on a cooler plug on a motherboard?

Finally, i hardreset my ARM board by shorting the battery terminals. Doesnt seem to affect the battery at all after all those years.

I have faith in the community that first of all, none of our devs would create a nefarious app that would take advantage of 3G, and if someone did, it would be discovered and pulled rather quickly. 

I for one can't wait for Pyra and 3G is a huge plus in my book.  My hopes are to pick up a SIM card and at least be able to use it for web browsing on the go without needing my wireless hotspot.  It would be even better if Pyra could make calls, and I could just keep it in my pocket and use a bluetooth headset for making calls, than just pull out my Pyra for text messaging or data use.  I like my Android phone for this, but having a physical keyboard, a nice powerful CPU and a full FIrefox browser would definately replace my aging Evo 3D.  I was thinking about upgrading to the Samsung Desire, but I'll keep rocking my current phone for the next year or two if Pyra can double as a phone.

Oh, oh, i am waiting for it too. I am not replacing a phone like you... i am replacing my laptop now.Always wanted to feel how it is to use something ARMish on the desktop used for "nuclear science".

From another side, heres a advantage that i dont need to pwn my mind to crossdev the gentoo. (Hard, really hard on x86)

inherent in current cell technology

But only while it's on. And the module has an off switch built in. So unless the module manufacturer screws you, it can actually easily be turned off.Any external switch or power monitoring would be just for the case that the manufacturer of the module built something in which can power the module on despite the internal switch being in the off position.

Someone claimed it would be possible for the manufacturer to build in a battery in the module, I said no, that person said yes. And now I say: No, it's impossible, just believe me. You read the post from the pcb designer stating that the module needs 3.3A spikes, didn't you? And it's average power consumption (way lower than 3A*?V) is still much, much too high to be powered by such a small battery. And it /could/ be easily found when examining the chip.

If its said to be 3.3, in the "inside" it may actually require few microAmp and half a volt to work.After all, "VillainTech" have progresses over the past few millenniums.

If even not 3G, but it still may implement a short-range transmitter.

And as i said, "few microamp" are currently available to wide public as a "Betavoltaics". Too expensive to be everywhere? Maybe because there is no "villain discount"?

And such a battery maybe extremely small and may keep the module transmitting for a serious amount of time. (+10 years sounds scary)

 

[WizardStan]

I am scared that the prices for maintaining (not making, as you said, its just as easy as not populating it) all those variants will be higher than the price of the PHS8-U by it self.

The price for maintaining... nothing. I have no idea what you're envisioning but I can guarantee whatever fears you have are completely unfounded. How do you think the maintenance would be any different whether the chip is populated or not? Why does the maintenance cost suddenly go up when there's no chip present?

I hope you still mean that we will get PHS8, not PLS8. PLS8 seems to be much worser for much bigger price.

Why? PLS8 is the LTE module. Can't get 4G (and some 3G) without it. EvilDragon has said that it may become necessary or desirable to start populating them with the 4G module. This shouldn't require anything different, the modules are directly compatible with each other, forward and backward. The pins are the same, the software is the same, everything is the same, just the PLS8 can connect to more networks than the PHS8. And costs more, of course, but that will hopefully change by the time he's ready to use it. And still be optional, of course.

~60-70 eur against 100? It only makes my first point stronger

Only if you assume that he's going to force everyone to use the same module whether they want it or not, but as has been said to you several times now, EvilDragon has stated in no uncertain terms that it will be optional.For the extra 5EUR it may be worthwhile for EvilDragon to just use the -P model and not bother with the -E or -US versions, but that only makes it easier to produce it optionally since he only needs to stock two different types, not three.

I cant find regional modules sold separately, can you help me find a price for em please?

Here's the PHS8-E. They also sell the -P and the PLS8-E models. I can't remember where I saw a company selling the -US versions but it was the same price as the -E.

For example, when i put a screwdriver between the - and + legs of a diode, how its called?

That's not a short. You can do that because you're not creating a circuit that didn't already exist, you're just bypassing the diode. It could lead to other problems,

Or maybe connecting together - and + on a cooler plug on a motherboard?

Need a lot more information about what you're doing here. Are you sure the cooler plug (whatever that is) is the only thing on the circuit?Also remember that a desktop's PSU is a lot more complex than what will be in the Pyra, it has more room for heat dissipation and multiple rails. It's entirely possible that you shorted one rail and everything on that rail died but fortunately the only thing on it was the "cooler plug", or possibly some other small components you aren't aware of. Handhelds like the Pandora and Pyra don't have that kind of space, they have to have many components fed off the same rail.

Finally, i hardreset my ARM board by shorting the battery terminals. Doesnt seem to affect the battery at all after all those years.

You literally connect the battery terminals together to reset your board? You are playing a very dangerous game, but it doesn't prove anything: shorting a connection for a brief moment and not seeing smoke does not mean it can stay like that forever. If you're so confident, short your board like that and then leave it that way for a few hours.

 

[Galaxis]

Instead of 1, universal console, we are to get: No3G, USA, EUR, JAP.
I am scared that the prices for maintaining (not making, as you said, its just as easy as not populating it) all those variants will be higher than the price of the PHS8-U by it self.


Unless paranoid people (+25% of the forums) are ready to pay extra for just not having the module (and make the normal people pay even more), i dont really see the reason. And i hope ED understands that too.

 

You don't need to be scared, as you're not running the show. With the Pandora, PCBs have been populated in relatively small batches, and in several different versions. From that, having a couple of different variants won't add a lot to the costs, as long as they all can be populated on the same PCB version. And on a side that you don't seem to see, there are a lot of customers who just don't want the added costs of a 3G module at all. After all it's one of the single most expensive components in the package (and I, for example, am perfectly happy to use my existing 3G USB stick in case I need cellular network access).

 

(Also I think I remember that a JAP 3G version was specifically *not* planned - something in the line of, there are no pre-certified 3G modules for that market and the product certification costs are much too high.)

 

[Granitehead]

Someone claimed it would be possible for the manufacturer to build in a battery in the module, I said no, that person said yes. And now I say: No, it's impossible, just believe me. You read the post from the pcb designer stating that the module needs 3.3A spikes, didn't you? And it's average power consumption (way lower than 3A*?V) is still much, much too high to be powered by such a small battery. And it /could/ be easily found when examining the chip.

If its said to be 3.3, in the "inside" it may actually require few microAmp and half a volt to work.After all, "VillainTech" have progresses over the past few millenniums.

If even not 3G, but it still may implement a short-range transmitter.

And as i said, "few microamp" are currently available to wide public as a "Betavoltaics". Too expensive to be everywhere? Maybe because there is no "villain discount"?

And such a battery maybe extremely small and may keep the module transmitting for a serious amount of time. (+10 years sounds scary)

I thought about answering you in detail. But actually - just no.

 

[BlackEagle]

To be hornest, I'll get it only if the 3G module is onboard =)

Although it's a gaming console I'ld like to use it primary as a PDA and mobile Computer (Mostly better than Cellphone ;-P)

 

[ZetaNeta]

I am scared that the prices for maintaining (not making, as you said, its just as easy as not populating it) all those variants will be higher than the price of the PHS8-U by it self.

The price for maintaining... nothing. I have no idea what you're envisioning but I can guarantee whatever fears you have are completely unfounded. How do you think the maintenance would be any different whether the chip is populated or not? Why does the maintenance cost suddenly go up when there's no chip present?

I hope you still mean that we will get PHS8, not PLS8. PLS8 seems to be much worser for much bigger price.

Why? PLS8 is the LTE module. Can't get 4G (and some 3G) without it. EvilDragon has said that it may become necessary or desirable to start populating them with the 4G module. This shouldn't require anything different, the modules are directly compatible with each other, forward and backward. The pins are the same, the software is the same, everything is the same, just the PLS8 can connect to more networks than the PHS8. And costs more, of course, but that will hopefully change by the time he's ready to use it. And still be optional, of course.

~60-70 eur against 100? It only makes my first point stronger

Only if you assume that he's going to force everyone to use the same module whether they want it or not, but as has been said to you several times now, EvilDragon has stated in no uncertain terms that it will be optional.
For the extra 5EUR it may be worthwhile for EvilDragon to just use the -P model and not bother with the -E or -US versions, but that only makes it easier to produce it optionally since he only needs to stock two different types, not three.

I cant find regional modules sold separately, can you help me find a price for em please?

Here's the PHS8-E. They also sell the -P and the PLS8-E models. I can't remember where I saw a company selling the -US versions but it was the same price as the -E.

For example, when i put a screwdriver between the - and + legs of a diode, how its called?

That's not a short. You can do that because you're not creating a circuit that didn't already exist, you're just bypassing the diode. It could lead to other problems,

Or maybe connecting together - and + on a cooler plug on a motherboard?

Need a lot more information about what you're doing here. Are you sure the cooler plug (whatever that is) is the only thing on the circuit?
Also remember that a desktop's PSU is a lot more complex than what will be in the Pyra, it has more room for heat dissipation and multiple rails. It's entirely possible that you shorted one rail and everything on that rail died but fortunately the only thing on it was the "cooler plug", or possibly some other small components you aren't aware of. Handhelds like the Pandora and Pyra don't have that kind of space, they have to have many components fed off the same rail.

Finally, i hardreset my ARM board by shorting the battery terminals. Doesnt seem to affect the battery at all after all those years.

You literally connect the battery terminals together to reset your board? You are playing a very dangerous game, but it doesn't prove anything: shorting a connection for a brief moment and not seeing smoke does not mean it can stay like that forever. If you're so confident, short your board like that and then leave it that way for a few hours.

Under maintenance i mainly mean "having and selling em". You may have 1000 pyras, and you got 750 of them bought. Everything is fine


And if you for ex. produce Pyra №1, 2, 3, 4. You make 250 of each. First one get poorly sold, second one is out of stock, third one is almost sold, and fourth one is again poorly sold. From the №2 and 3, ED gets lots of profit.


From №1 and 4, he either gets small profit, either nothing, either gets losses. Of course, i think he "trust himself", but he will still put some more euros into the price of 2 and 3 to cover the risks.


If you "just dont populate a component" at the factory, that doesn't mean the customer have the technology even close to one used to install BGA modules, meaning that a user who wants 3G wont buy No3G.


And same with America/Europe. Polish student got no interest in american modules :3


(I hope you know that without me, and even know a proper name for this, but i "explained it to kids in examples" to make sure we understand each other... and because i forgot how its called )


PHS afaik got GPS/GLONASS builtin. Didnt notice the LTE thingy (Sorry)


P*S8-E/USA isnt even worth being used in anything but "real embedded" solutions, where the devices are bought in bulk, and as with buying chips in bulk, every single cent counts.


But... ok, i may agree that 2 variants may be fine, but having more... noway.


I didnt get how different it is. Can you explain more clear? And i wanna hear about the problems, as i am doing that quite often, and knew no problem.


The cooling worked fine after that if thats what you mean.


Can i use a lithium AA for that game, as batteries of such capacity are rare here, and i dont wanna spend them.


I get what you mean, and i had several batteries blow up in front of my eyes (1 flied so hard it hit the "always open" cdrom drive and closed it). But none i shorted on purpose have blown so far.

 

[ZetaNeta]

Instead of 1, universal console, we are to get: No3G, USA, EUR, JAP.
I am scared that the prices for maintaining (not making, as you said, its just as easy as not populating it) all those variants will be higher than the price of the PHS8-U by it self.


Unless paranoid people (+25% of the forums) are ready to pay extra for just not having the module (and make the normal people pay even more), i dont really see the reason. And i hope ED understands that too.

 

You don't need to be scared, as you're not running the show. With the Pandora, PCBs have been populated in relatively small batches, and in several different versions. From that, having a couple of different variants won't add a lot to the costs, as long as they all can be populated on the same PCB version. And on a side that you don't seem to see, there are a lot of customers who just don't want the added costs of a 3G module at all. After all it's one of the single most expensive components in the package (and I, for example, am perfectly happy to use my existing 3G USB stick in case I need cellular network access).

 

(Also I think I remember that a JAP 3G version was specifically *not* planned - something in the line of, there are no pre-certified 3G modules for that market and the product certification costs are much too high.)

Well... if thats what you say.... I just dont wanna pay anything more than 2 euros just because paranoids/students with mcdonalds wifi want their cheaper version.


If its not gonna affect the cost seriously (which is the reason for this holywar), i agree.


I inserted JAP by accident. I thought -J variant stands for Japan XD


I thought i deleted that from the post


(I wonder what poor ekianjo will do...)

Someone claimed it would be possible for the manufacturer to build in a battery in the module, I said no, that person said yes. And now I say: No, it's impossible, just believe me. You read the post from the pcb designer stating that the module needs 3.3A spikes, didn't you? And it's average power consumption (way lower than 3A*?V) is still much, much too high to be powered by such a small battery. And it /could/ be easily found when examining the chip.

If its said to be 3.3, in the "inside" it may actually require few microAmp and half a volt to work.
After all, "VillainTech" have progresses over the past few millenniums.


If even not 3G, but it still may implement a short-range transmitter.


And as i said, "few microamp" are currently available to wide public as a "Betavoltaics". Too expensive to be everywhere? Maybe because there is no "villain discount"?


And such a battery maybe extremely small and may keep the module transmitting for a serious amount of time. (+10 years sounds scary)

I thought about answering you in detail. But actually - just no.

OBJECTION! This argument makes no god damn sense!

To be hornest, I'll get it only if the 3G module is onboard =)

Although it's a gaming console I'ld like to use it primary as a PDA and mobile Computer (Mostly better than Cellphone ;-P)

Meh too. I am unlikely to use it as a console at all.