Pandora Should Move To Android

[WizardStan]

Over-The-Air; centralized; protection!; removal of 'malicious' software... This is just pure evil, even more pure than this interesting ED-pic that's floating around here somewhere.

These things are not evil, they are tools. Used correctly, used for the purpose their obviously being advertised for, they are in fact the opposite of evil. You're only calling them evil because of the potential for misuse, but that misuse makes the person abusing them evil, not the tools themselves.

 

[Grench]

If we're opening options...

The different OS options can be run on a line. At one end you have a dumbed down OS that makes it easy for non-technical users to do stuff. At the other end you have the ultra-geeky must use command line interface options that scare the hell out of the 'average' person. A lot of work has been done to try to make an ultra-geeky OS that we can't even easily spell on the Pandora's keyboard work for less technical users.

Android - UI is made so simple for the end user that the end user does not have much choice/options left to mess things up. Rapidly growing user base and a very live application development environment. Amazing OS brand recognition.

Ubuntu - UI is made relatively simple, but the power user capabilities are still there - Footprint becomes an issue. Good user base and a large repository through Debian roots. Good OS brand recognition.

Debian/Red Hat/Novel/SUSE - UI is a bit more complex - Footprint is a big issue. Relatively stagnant user base, but good to large repositories. OK OS brand recognition.

Angstrom - UI by itself is relatively unusable by non technical users. Footprint is good. Tiny user base. Only usable repository is whatever this community makes for it in PND files. Zero brand recognition, even Linux users seem to have little idea what it is.

It comes down to which audience you want to pull onto the device.

Getting access to the Android marketplace would be cool and all. Most of the 'absent features' like accelerometer gaming controls and GPS can be subbed out. Most accelerometer games wind up using the accelerometer like a joystick. A bluetooth GPS device should be able to take the GPS roll even better than most embedded options. No phone - but we're better off that way.

IMHO - Flip the whole thing to Ubuntu simply to get rid of the unrecognizable Angstrom OS. You get the higher profile OS recognition and 'ease of use' credentials without loosing the power user capabilities. If only Google were to wake up and make an 'Android Marketplace' application for non-Android Linux OS devices, we'd be set there.

Android is neat and all - but too confining for the device's stated purposes to be used as the main OS.
Angstrom is a hacker OS with no name recognition, no user base to speak of, no independent marketing for the OS, etc... It is too confining from a user audience perspective.

IMHO - keep going with Angstrom through Batch 1&2. Include a 4GB SDHC card in the price of Batch 3 units. Load Angstrom and Ubuntu to partitions on the card and use the on-board flash disk space as a boot loader and /swap. Keep the PND file system/store and set it up for use on Ubuntu. Run Android so that it looks just like another emulated system and create a PND file for it to run off of an SDHC card.

Sorry Angstrom fans - too niche, too alien (special characters in name) and too exclusive to the techies only crowd. I want access to titles on the Ubuntu/Debian repository without having to request someone else to please make a PND file for it. I have my wife, two 8 year old boys, my sister and my mother all using Ubuntu and liking it. After briefly messing a bit with Angstrom, there is no way I could put it in front of them and expect them to be happy.

The Angstrom OS is going to wind up limiting the available audience for the device. The Android likely users will shy way.

The Android OS would open up one audience and sacrifice the Angstrom audience.

Ubuntu is a fairly happy middle ground. It's all there, but both of the above audiences will have people that protest it as either too dumbed down or too difficult.

IMHO

 

[palstyo]

Actually andorid is not fully open OS.
some of main google application is not available for free distribute.
like a android market,gmail etc especially which is related with google account.
Don't think like a android phone.
Most android tablet has same problem(except chinese device, they did it without authorize from google)
ODROID,ARCHOS all the same.
They only can use 3rd party app store.
Yes if pandora's android work with 3rd pary apps store may be chance to get ton of application.
But think about it do you need all apps on that app store?(I means for android)
Actually no need.
Only advantage is there is a lot of choice in same category.
So if you really want to full functional android buy android phone(except chinese one )

Overall android is not suitable for primary OS of pandora.
For secondary OS or just for experimental enviroenment is enough.

Oh I didn't say I don't like android.
Actually I like it coz. no need localization this is quite good for non english user especially who using double byte like me.
I just want to say not for pandora.

I know pandora is linux so this is also (probably)easy to implement with uim.
So I think alternative way to get more user is add more language support.
Probably can get a lot of potential andora2ut4: user from Japan.

 

[yodaofborg]

Over-The-Air; centralized; protection!; removal of 'malicious' software... This is just pure evil, even more pure than this interesting ED-pic that's floating around here somewhere.

These things are not evil, they are tools. Used correctly, used for the purpose their obviously being advertised for, they are in fact the opposite of evil. You're only calling them evil because of the potential for misuse, but that misuse makes the person abusing them evil, not the tools themselves.

But on an *Open* device, is it up to google to decide? These are not tools exposed to the user.

[edit]

Dunno why I let craigix troll me, why am I still posing in this thread!

 

[sebt3]

IMHO

From your post I can tell you don't have a pandora already IMHO...

The PND system have been built especially to make things damn simple for the end-user. Hoo and creating a pnd is easy for any average skilled hacker.
Minimenu make daveC happy and is _realy_ noobs friendly.
Ohh and we are using the same UI XUbuntu is using. Do you realy want gnome with its bloat, its bloat and its "interface nazi" (linus torvalds actual quote...) ?

 

[WizardStan]

Over-The-Air; centralized; protection!; removal of 'malicious' software... This is just pure evil, even more pure than this interesting ED-pic that's floating around here somewhere.

These things are not evil, they are tools. Used correctly, used for the purpose their obviously being advertised for, they are in fact the opposite of evil. You're only calling them evil because of the potential for misuse, but that misuse makes the person abusing them evil, not the tools themselves.

But on an *Open* device, is it up to google to decide? These are not tools exposed to the user.

Not sure what you're getting at. Perhaps you do not understand the purpose of these things fahrstuhl is calling evil?

 

[Grench]

IMHO

From your post I can tell you don't have a pandora already IMHO...

You are correct. I am @1250 in the order queue - Ordered October 1, 2008. Still waiting - and waiting...

The PND system have been built especially to make things damn simple for the end-user. Hoo and creating a pnd is easy for any average skilled hacker.

From what I can tell, the PND system is great - if someone has already created it. For applications where it hasn't been created, any no-skill non-hacker is stuck begging for support. The Ubuntu/Debian repository already supports ARM. Creating PND versions for all of it isn't going to happen. This requirement limits the potential audience for the device.

Minimenu make daveC happy and is _realy_ noobs friendly.
Ohh and we are using the same UI XUbuntu is using. Do you realy want gnome with its bloat, its bloat and its "interface nazi" (linus torvalds actual quote...) ?

None of which means a hill of beans to someone who doesn't recognize the term "Angtrom." Angstrom is worthless for marketing the device. Much better off simply calling it, "A Linux OS."

Generally, bloat = flexibility. For a device that is designed never to be powered down, cold boot times aren't as relevant. Of course, that would depend on getting a true standby state working, and that is a whole different issue. RAM can be an issue, but if we were to use the onboard flash as /swap, it should alleviate that some.

How many of you are using Angstrom exclusively on your home desktop machines, notebooks or netbooks? Anyone?

I have Ubuntu loaded on 5 machines in my house and I support installs on another 3 going on 4. I'm not a Linux hacker - things should, for the most part, just work. The little that I fiddled with Angstrom - Angstrom is, quite frankly, a pain in the ass. Not impossible, but way more time consuming than it has a right to be.

Again, IMHO.

 

[SNESFAN]

ok wasn't the topic should pandora go android to get mainstream support? and be the first *good* android gaming handheld

my answer: yes

if you don't want to code for android, fine, there's plenty of other developers that will.

looks like there's a decent angstrom port that you can still develop for, and I think alot of the homebrew apps that's available (i've seen) will find a better audience on angstrom.

But for just being the best android gaming handheld... I would love to see pandora to take that crown. And IMO pandora could easily get that crown.

maybe a poll would be better for this question. didn't see it

 

[Exophase]

There's no telling for sure that the "good Android gaming platform" market is really going to happen :/

 

[yodaofborg]

Not sure what you're getting at. Perhaps you do not understand the purpose of these things fahrstuhl is calling evil?

Sorry, quoted the wrong post, and now I remember why I love Craigix so much, so yeah.

 

[milkshake]

from what I have read of the comments most people (obviously not everyone) seem to have some sort of negative feeling towards an OS that they have never used?! comments like that make me sick.
the Android OS is brilliant OS and I think would be an asset if done correctly for the pandora.

Here are some of the things that make sense to me:

The OS itself is open source (not all the applications though).
lots of paid for google development has happened and is still happening so it can only get better .
Its easy to use (will draw a bigger audience to the pandora).
Android can be "rooted" to give you full power over the device if needed.
A terminal can be installed for those linux power users.
Would make the device a more developer friendly device using the android API's also this has an added benefit of allowing your game to run on other android devices if you wanted.

To put it simply, Android is alot further ahead in development than where we are now with our linux distro.
Its continuously being improved so can only get better where as the pandora's main OS/kernal/drivers are only worked on when the devs want to.

most software that you could want can be made for the android also as well as the existing android software library (assuming marketplace is available).

I dunno I just don't understand what people don't like about this idea or maybe just about android itself? :huh:
even if this doesn't get done for our main OS this should still be done as an alternative.

Maybe you would be able to choose which OS you want flashing to the pandora when you first turn it on that would be interesting.

 

[SNESFAN]

There's no telling for sure that the "good Android gaming platform" market is really going to happen :/

Well, the king of the smallest country in the world goes to sleep at night knowing he is still the king.

 

[skeezix]

Grench -- you can use Debian ARM packages, or Angstrom ipk's, etc and so on; system fully supports it. The reason PND's came around really, was due to 1) small internal storage, and 2) SDs ejecting and moving around a lot (which may or may not work well with traditional package systems, depending on a lot of things.) ie: We needed a firmware in NAND, and one that people could pop games and such into. Installing Debian ARM's into that isn't practical, since NAND is not a 100GB hard drive

But if you boot from SD, or configure packages to install to ext2 (say) on sD, etc, you can fully use Debian ARMs. (Or if they're small and fit into NAND, go ahead, its your device.) Likewise, you could boot Debian _itself_ on SD (say), and go all the way. We just have to supply a firmware in NAND so the device is usable without SDs, but if you presume to have an SD and Debian on it, go nuts

So PND is great, but if you want a package that another linux has and it is not yet packaged up into PND, you still have options. That said, packaging into PND is often not too hard at all; our peroblem is not difficulty, it is lack of enough developer/packager/user hands.

jeff

 

[yodaofborg]

Android is great, I love it. It's great, on a phone. Pandora does not have the hardware required for most the *apps* and *commercial software* to work correctly. Sure, the developers of these applications could drop what they are doing and add support for Pandora's hardware, because nobody here can. Do you think they will? China is pumping out device after device that get sold in their 1000's daily to people all over the world. The amount of 'droid phones these days is silly, and not all of them are even fully certified.

Why would mainstream devs support Pandora just because it can run 'droid? Stop pipe dreaming, and realise this:

 

[mali]

I dunno I just don't understand what people don't like about this idea or maybe just about android itself? :huh:

I don't get it either. And while you are at it, put in 3G and get rid of the stupid keyboard we don't need anyway. Android is finger friendly.

 

[Eniko]

I like how a lot of people are being like "OMG Y U DONT LIEK ANDROID!?", like that's even the point. Like the point isn't that it'd be stupid as shit to switch to a primary supported OS for which the hardware doesn't have the features to get the most out of it, and which will severely limit the options for non-Android software and developers, and which will likely split a niche community thus causing even further harm.

The Pandora is an open source device, a lot of people wanted it because it had so many options and possibilities and so much software that was just a port to ARM away to use. You take out Python, Mono, lots of libraries and software that'll require significant rewrites just to get them to function on Android and you've just taken away all the freaking potential of the device.

And for what? Marketability? The OS isn't gonna sell Pandoras. The device does that. Besides, how do any of you know the device needs more marketability? The first batch isn't even done, technically right now the Pandora is so freaking marketable that demand far exceeds supply. Getting a bit ahead of things there, aren't you?

Or for getting the commercial devs on board? Because the Pandora running Android means anything for Android will obviously run properly on the Pandora right, despite those missing hardware features! Of course! And I'm sure the Android has tons of high profile AAA rated games, and the devs for those games are going to give half a shit about making sure their games are going to be compatible with our super niche device, right? RIGHT?

And all that is totally worth shitting on preorderers who didn't sign up for any of that, pissing off this niche community's devs, and splitting the community, RIGHT?

Seriously. With so many arguments against this, I wonder if the people here pushing for Android (and being contemptuous towards those who want the device they bought to stay as advertised, no less) aren't just trolling. It boggles the mind.

EDIT: That's the last I have to say about this. If this happens I'm gonna switch back to C# and XNA and focus on the 360 community games instead.

 

[milkshake]

Pandora does not have the hardware required for most the *apps* and *commercial software* to work correctly. Sure, the developers of these applications could drop what they are doing and add support for Pandora's hardware, because nobody here can. Do you think they will?

Why would mainstream devs support Pandora just because it can run 'droid? Stop pipe dreaming.

The hardware the Pandora doesn't have that is required for some of the apps are the following: Accelerometer, Camera, multi touch.
To be honest most of the commercial apps do not require these features so I really do not know what you are on about.

Also I'm pretty sure that if emailed the developers of some of the applications could add physical control support for their game because it would not only benefit Pandora users but other android devices that have a keyboard or ability to use external keyboards/controllers so its not like they would refuse point blank plus it could make them some new customers.

 

[sebt3]

Creating PND versions for all of it isn't going to happen. This requirement limits the potential audience for the device.

Sure it won't happen for "all", but it will for all that matter. And at the speed things are going, this target will be reached faster than you think.

if we were to use the onboard flash as /swap, it should alleviate that some.

that's a very bad idea : nand wont like this.

None of which means a hill of beans to someone who doesn't recognize the term "Angtrom." Angstrom is worthless for marketing the device. Much better off simply calling it, "A Linux OS."
many of you are using Angstrom exclusively on your home desktop machines, notebooks or netbooks? Anyone?
things should, for the most part, just work. The little that I fiddled with Angstrom - Angstrom is, quite frankly, a pain in the ass. Not impossible, but way more time consuming than it has a right to be.

(sorry for the heavy edit)
Angstrom is not know by non-techies, sure. But its more used than you think : it's _the_ reference in embedded linux. Heck those behind this distribution have (not sure if it's still true) holded the official ARM branch of the linux kernel. It have been around since people have tried to get linux inside their ipaq.

It might not be know by the average people, but this is the best distribution for an handheld

 

[yodaofborg]

Pandora does not have the hardware required for most the *apps* and *commercial software* to work correctly. Sure, the developers of these applications could drop what they are doing and add support for Pandora's hardware, because nobody here can. Do you think they will?

Why would mainstream devs support Pandora just because it can run 'droid? Stop pipe dreaming.

The hardware the Pandora doesn't have that is required for some of the apps are the following: Accelerometer, Camera, multi touch.
To be honest most of the commercial apps do not require these features so I really do not know what you are on about.

Also I'm pretty sure that if emailed the developers of some of the applications could add physical control support for their game because it would not only benefit Pandora users but other android devices that have a keyboard or ability to use external keyboards/controllers so its not like they would refuse point blank plus it could make them some new customers.

Email away. Please do, but make sure they get the gaming nubs working!

 

[mali]

Hey Eniko, take it easy, it won't happen anyway
The Open Pandora project would disappear in a mild puff and nobody wants that.