Pandora Should Move To Android

[craigix]

Consider:

The Pandora should move to Android to get real commercial software and games - plus it's only a matter of time before someone else releases an Android games console (which works well), Pandora should be first.

Discuss...

You do realize it will not work out of the box on pandora, do you?
Good luck finding people to do the port for you.

How do you know I want it? I've been purposely neutral mainly because I know nothing about it (aside from the java wrapping issue).

Anyhow, interesting reading, I've never used Android myself. This thread just came from a conversation on MSN, since we didn't know much about Android (aside from it showing up in a lot of devices soon) we decided to get the forum opinion on it.

And we certainly got that

 

[Bosbeetle]

Consider:

The Pandora should move to Android to get real commercial software and games - plus it's only a matter of time before someone else releases an Android games console (which works well), Pandora should be first.

Discuss...

You do realize it will not work out of the box on pandora, do you?
Good luck finding people to do the port for you.

How do you know I want it? I've been purposely neutral mainly because I know nothing about it (aside from the java wrapping issue).

Anyhow, interesting reading, I've never used Android myself. This thread just came from a conversation on MSN, since we didn't know much about Android (aside from it showing up in a lot of devices soon) we decided to get the forum opinion on it.

And we certainly got that

well I think you can draw a conclusion about it

 

[valhalla]

I wouldn't be interested in a google sanctioned android system that requires google logins for everything: if my 1st batch pandora came with that I would be reflashing the nand in no time.

The open source edition of android could be interesting as an alternative system option, but AFAIK it wouldn't give full access to the Marketplace, and I don't think it would be better than angstrom for commercial games. From my limited android experience I don't think it would be a good choice for people who would like to use pandora also as an umpc, so we would probably lose more than we gain. If my pandora came with such a system i would probably keep it on the nand at least until I realize that I'm always booting from some proper GNU/Linux system on SD. I'm also not so sure that I would promote it at the local LUGs and similar environments as much as I currently plan to do.

As for the "Android is still linux": yes, it does use an heavily patched linux kernel, but any similarity and compatibility ends there. There is much more in a "linux" system that makes it the way it is. Android will give access to some already existing applications (as long as they don't require hardware that we don't have) but it would prevent all of the existing linux software from working, except with a complete rewrite.

 

[Trip]

IMO Android is made for completely different type of device than the Pandora. Make it Android compatible without ruining what you already have by all means, but don't sacrifice the usefulness of the Pandora for more software that probably wont be 100% feature compatible anyway.

The system that the Pandora is currently using is definitely the way to go.

Everything else has already been said by multiple people so I wont waste my time

 

[fusion_power]

PS: I don't like Java

oh, I forgot that point.
+1
In my experience, there is only one relationship with java: JAVA=SLOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWW

 

[elwing]

android is completly useless compared to the base OS... except if it got the full market access.
but:
1. I doubt OP can get a fully google sanctionned android.
2. If they do I'm sure they cannot also support an angstrom OS.
3. It's a rather elegant way to split and destroy the comunity...

thus: NO!!!

 

[Gerix]

Wait, are you saying I'm going to need to dual boot to play commercial video games? No, this doesn't sound familiar at all...

 

[skeezix]

Craig just threw this otu there for a discussion; it is not a twinkle in anyones eye.

(cpasjuste I think did a basic Android port ages ago, it worked; it needs tonnes of work.. Andorid is not just magicly free to use

For my part, this discvussion is about wht you want for a primary OS; you coudl run android right now if you wanted on NAND, or boot it from SD; you can run any linux you like.

The question here is what you want as pushed as primary.

I will _not_ be running it on my Pandora (except that I support the community, so if everyone went that way, I might dual boot into it on occasion for testing something?); I like our current firmware.. nice good old regular Linux, easy to tweak without a load of heavy gunk on top. I see no problem in having a variety of systems and the user can pick which they put on NAND, and which they boot from SD.

IF folks want to push Android as the prime OS, for publicity sake or something; I'll stay out of the vote

For my part .. I just have little interest in rewriting all the UIS in the world to make them run on Android, not to mention a lot of other things. (Sure, you get some (not all) Android apps, but you lose every regular linux app, too, until they get ported into Android apps.) (And when peopel say stuff like, but it uses 'standard APIs', remember to read that as "it uses standard APIs, as long as your standard is Android" As a mobile dev whose been in the game longer than most, Android is still on the edge; they're exactly where Palm and others have been years ago -- Palm let their OS out of the bag to other companies (at a cost mind you), and those companies did exactly trhr same as with Android -- same core, but deciding to enable/disable features, mess with or replace the UI, support/ignore later OS versions, etc, and it fragmented the market and caused _huge_ developer headaches; code ended up full of "if palmos, but if sony's version, do this; if palm os, but handsprings version, do that..."; Android has quite a bit of risk of this sort of thing right now, and its already been happening to some small extent with carriers introeducing UI changes and more to point.. not upgrading firmwares, etc. However, Google and others are fully aware of history before them and are trying to stop this from happening, but haven't the clout to enforce much so we'll see..

Anyway, Android has its ups and downs, and nothing much wrong with it, and a lot lot of awesome; but at the same time, from my single person view .. I want the pandora because its a typical linux hack box, and I don't want to jump through NDK hoops to do it; I've done that before on a dozen mobile OSes and on Android, and it makes my teeth itch.

Assuming folks do the kernel patching and all that so Android works well on Pandora, consider what you gain exactly and what you lose.

But it might be worth it for the markeing fluff, who knows?

But not on _my_ pandora

jeff

 

[Tobriand]

Just weighing in, in what seems to be the usual manner:
- Via Stuckie Extend method: Android would be lovely to have. It would essentially become an interpreter-like programme allowing access to some degree of commercial gaming on Pandora quickly, but without threatening current development. Once it's there, it could ideally be ignored, or ran just to get at the specific programmes.
- As a separately booting OS, Android would be interesting to have, but potentially disconcerting; I don't like booting between systems with one programme compatible with one and another compatible with the others. As far as I can tell, that's exactly what would happen. The resulting community would probably be fragmented, because many of us would spend most of our time in one OS and the remainder would spend their time in the other, and developments on one would be of little or no worth to those running the other. Since the community is comparatively small already, that possibility is something to avoid at nearly all costs - but provided the default OS remains Angstrom, or something perfectly compatible with it, the chances of this are fairly slim.
- As a default operating system, Android would suck. It would suck not because you'd lose users (though some of them you would), but because developers would likely end up jumping ship. Enough did so when Gamepark Holdings started swapping out libraries, drivers, and components (remember the whole multiple screens issue? On Gp32, then on GP2x, and both times without warning and breaking compatibility to a massive degree.) Don't let it happen for Pandora too.

That is not to say that those who want a newbie friendly OS don't have a point. Angstrom at the moment is less friendly to the average user in terms of getting many things running than even the GP2x version of Linux was (the only step skipped is that of opening the zip file - reading documentation is still necessary, but now that documentation often requires that users open the terminal and type in something that looks like magic words to them to obtain a working programme, when ideally such commands should be taken care of by Pandora automatically, probably on first running a .pnd. Data and roms still need to be in the right place, which necessitates being comfortable finding out where that is and moving them there, as per the 2x and 32 days.

However.

This is something solved by putting more into developing Angstrom. Not by jumping ship to a different OS once the train has already left the station and people have been on board waiting to get there for the last 2 years!

 

[jutleys]

craigx i have been using android the day it was ever release on the first handset stuck with it all thease years my opinion android is android and pandora is pandora cant compare them but android would be nice for a duelboot for the devs to update regulary it would be nice to have android as a second duel boot craig but not replacment for pandora os.i can smell gingerbread comming soon to pandora

 

[Natasha]

Anyhow, interesting reading, I've never used Android myself. This thread just came from a conversation on MSN, since we didn't know much about Android (aside from it showing up in a lot of devices soon) we decided to get the forum opinion on it.

Let me guess... a conversation with a business angel ;-)

 

[ngrcat]

 

[WizardStan]

Anyhow, interesting reading, I've never used Android myself. This thread just came from a conversation on MSN, since we didn't know much about Android (aside from it showing up in a lot of devices soon) we decided to get the forum opinion on it.

Let me guess... a conversation with a business angel ;-)

If so, I would recommend firing this guy. He's suggested you do something you can't do.
Literally, you cannot.
While everyone is debating over the pros and cons of Angstrom vs Android, there's one thing they are forgetting: we pre-ordered a Linux based gaming handheld slash umpc thing with a specific set of features. You cannot remove features after you've taken the pre-order. You can add or make equal exchanges, stores do this all the time: if you order a 6 pack of socks and they're out of 6 pack, they send you a 10 pack at no extra cost; But imagine you ordered a 6 pack of socks but they were out so they sent you a 6 pack of underwear.
Long story short: you either have to deliver the Linux based console that we preordered, or refund everyones money. Switching to Android at this stage can not even be a consideration. Ask your lawyer.

 

[Wootson]

Developing one OS is already too much work. If OpenPandora decides to also put out an Android OS, they will surely end up with half working operating systems in the end. Even now with the various options they already need to be very careful. It's not like you just press a button and everything is going to work. I would just stick to Angstrom Linux and develop that as far as possible. Who cares that other companies are hopping onto the Google train.

And Android as a (commercial) gaming platform... Please! Even Apple can't pull it off with their iPhone and iPod series. You have the occasional game here and there, but that's it. If you want high quality games, the NDS and the PSP are the places to be. Not Android, not OS4, not Linux.

To OpenPandora: first make sure you get the first batch complete and stick with what you already have, the grass at the neighbors is not greener than yours.

Edit: Splitting up into multiple operating systems will also become a community killer in the end. First of all if it would become default, I would cancel my pre-order this very second. And secondly, a lot of developers would need to choose sides in an already niche community with less than a few thousand devices. If your small, you can't take these risks, only if your big enough. And OpenPandora is still in the baby-phase at the moment. More choice does not equal better community.

 

[Sugar_Kane]

Maybe you could allocate some in a future batch to have android installed as primary, and market those units to the non-techy crowd. I'm sure there would be plenty of interest from the average Joe wanting a tiny laptop, but put off by linux.

 

[Gerix]

How's Gentoo doing, anyway? And I was kind of hoping this device would show that Linux can be fun to use. Naive me...

 

[mcqfesijiba]

Android is good in my phone (I like it infinitely better than my old, limited Blackberry OS), but wouldn't fit the Pandora as well. Of course, any port to Pandora is welcomed since most of us have no problem playing around with different OSes and applications on our device, but I will generally always use a minimal OS for my Pandora leaving as many resources as possible for the games.

 

[xyta]

In my opinion switching to Android would be a big mistake.

The Pandora was developed to get the best homebrew and emulation handheld possible. With Angstöm, people can use the device how they want and code homebrew how they want and distribute their self-writen software how they want...

The large companies like MS, Sony or Apple -in contrast- earn a big share of their profits with accesoires or software or apps. So they don't want homebrew or emulation software on their devices and try to keep as much control as possible of the distribution of software.

Sony's PSP and PS3 are quite dongeled and Apple's IPhone also needs to be jailbreaked to get a full access to the device. In the past Apple made some further steps to keep their developers under control. Recently they forbade the developers to use other toolchains than these of Apple for writing IPhone Apps.

Now to Google. With Android they tried to offer an alternate cell phone OS for touch screen devices similar to the IPhone. Android is more open than the IPhone OS, but not completely open. Google keeps control on several important parts of the OS. Depending if you have a dev version or an end-user version you have different rights of accessing some parts of the system, which also contains some closed sources etc.
For now it might also be attractive for some Pandora developers to publish their software as Android apps. And it might be attractive to Craig to "outsource" a big part of the Pandora software development to a specialist company with an obviously advanced platform (Google).

But as mentioned above, homebrew and emulators often contradics to the business model of these major IT companies which try to gain control of the content.
So I think it could be quite possible that Google changes their license agreements for Android, the Appstore and Programmers in the future and won't allow homebrew an emulation anymore. If they did this, we suddenly had the same problem -closed consoles- which resulted in the development of the Pandora again!

In the question Android <> Angstöm, it depends how you see the future of the Pandora. If you still want the ultimate homebrew handheld and its users to be able to do anything with it (like learning programming consoles, playing films) forever, you'll need a completely free OS like the Pandora Angström Distribution.

If you want the Pandora to be a device with the focus on consuming, switch to Android. In this variation the community will probably be more passive. Big professional apps of commercial companies will be available, but this will also result in our own developers getting more lazy. It would not be neccessary to write a program for a certain use for the Pandora, since real good looking professional apps will already be in the Android store.

 

[Eniko]

Oh, OK, I underestimated your needs. It seems that you require pygame explicitly, and wouldn't want to adapt your renderer to use native drawing APIs (which are very similar to the pygame ones). Yes I realize that pygame provides a lot of convenience and you probably want to stick to that for that reason. I also had the impression that there was a pygame implementation on top of Jython, but I'm not a Python programmer so I clearly haven't done my research.

Also there's ProGuard for code obfuscation if that's what you're looking for. Oh and code produced by Cython is as "decompilable" as Jython-generated code is; C-code adapted for Python isn't the same thing as normal C-code.

I don't need Pygame specifically, but I am working on coding a game, in cPython, with a Pygame renderer. My point was that if cPython+Pygame won't work and cPython+Cython+Ogre3D won't work, there's tons of other stuff that won't work, and I somehow doubt that this problem only applies to me and my unnatural love for programming languages named after snakes.

Jython is not cPython. Jython is an interpreter for Python syntax, but it doesn't even work the same and have the same quirks as cPython, so just "switching a renderer" might not be enough. What about the Global Interpreter Lock? How does that work on Jython? What if certain Python stuff is slower in Jython? What if I make extensive use of Pickles and I no longer have access to the much, much faster cPickle module? Or more likely I use StringIO for building strings more efficiently, and I can no longer access cStringIO? I've used cStringIO for OpenGL renderers and networking code that really had to be fast. What if I'm using Numpy or Twisted or any other number of libraries that aren't available for Jython that are available for cPython?

Yes, porting cPython to Jython is less gruelling than porting Visual Basic to C++, but they're not even nearly close enough to not make this a full port. I'm just some chick banging out games in my spare time, I'm already doing all the art and the coding. Now if Pandora is split between Angstrom and Android users I need to go off and learn Jython's quirks, libraries, etcetera, just to reach the entirety of an already small audience, and then pray all of that works backwards on Angstrom or maintain two ports. Why would I want to bother?

And this isn't just me being bitchy about the stuff I'm developing, although the thought of Android being adopted as an official or even semi-official OS for the Pandora does make me feel bitchy, but if it's like this for me I somehow doubt that all of this will be much less troublesome for other developers. And then what do you get as a dev? Pick between Android forcing you into it's mold and hoping that works on both OSes, or between developing for only one and knowing that you'll only reach a tiny amount of people even within your niche, or the more likely: spend your free time somewhere else entirely and not develop.

I can tell you which I would likely pick.

So why am I supposed to be excited and on board with this? I am not. And that's not even getting into the fact that going from there I can think of slews of stuff that wouldn't work on Android.

Haha, you're not excited about developing a game for a platform and then learning that the platform is considering shifting to a new operating system that won't run your game? Don't worry! A handfull of us will stick around and play it.

And VRAndy beautifully illustrates why this might cause a mass exodus among the non-commercial developers. So what you wind up with over time will be a device that isn't a phone running an OS for phones that's 95% commercial. That's not what I want.

 

[Exophase]

- But to all the "let's stay with Linux" crowd, Android is still Linux.

Is it?

IMO yes... there are lots of forks of the Linux kernel, maybe not usually as decisive as this but I'm sure even Pandora's kernel hasn't been fully passed upstream yet. To me this is like saying GP2X isn't Linux because it's shipping with an ancient kernel. So long as a fork doesn't strip away major functionality it should still qualify.