Pandora 2 specifications and price

[Foxgod]

Well, glad we blew right past reasonable expectations like playable Saturn or Dreamcast emulators...

The latter may happen on the 1ghz unit, and we should at least try.


WIthout trying you dont get anywhere.

 

[Grench]

I meant that the 8GB module would only be about $20 more than the 4GB module.


I'd expect the 4GB module itself to be over $20.

I think I see where you're going with this - and so far I really like what I see.


Don't listen to the people who say they, 'only need 256 meg'. They're only going to hold back the dream.


You've all seen the, 'We can't port/play/emulate that machine because it would be too slow' responses to port requests.


8GB RAM implies a 64bit machine. Likely quad core 2Ghz or so. Likely USB 3.0. Likely 1080p 3d graphics capable with several hundred MB of graphics ram - maybe shared from the 8GB.


With a quad core CPU, 8GB RAM and a fast USB 3.0 controller to the SD media, this thing should be able to emulate a Wii, Playstation and even an XBox (Pentium III). Right now the Pandora is similar to the Zenith Z-note 486/25 I used to use in DOS emulation speed. Now we're talking about possibly emulating something in the range of Pentium III to Pentium IV. Similar to a VirtualBox session on an X86 Linux machine, we would be able to have multiple ARM VMs running in the background that we can toggle in and out. Having one with an iPod, one with an Android, and more running in VM sessions simultaneously should be hardware-possible. Yes, that would require the software to catch up - which it won't do without a platform to do it on.


This opens huge capabilities - that are going to require the fast CPU, big RAM, big fast storage, high resolution screen and high speed networking - all in a tiny package that fits in your pocket.


Given the 'specs' that have so far been implied - this sounds like a whole new frontier in hand held computing. I'm excited just to have a ring side seat!

 

[WizardStan]

Keep in mind, as CraigIX has stated previously, the plan is to work without internal NAND.

Noted.

At least one of the partitions on at least one of these cards will be getting used as boot.

Right, with you so far.

As stated, I don't want to restrict my boot card to 1 year old technology that is finally showing up in microSD cards. That you would want to seems far more silly to me than my standing by full sized SD cards would to you.

Agree, 100%

In order to keep users from ejecting the boot drive, a good idea was presented months ago to have it hidden up behind the battery. I don't think I originated that idea - but it is a good one.

Yup, nothing wrong so far.

If the device only has two SD cards, then one of them must be used as boot and should not be removed during operation. It may as well be internalized - and there is NO DECREASE IN FUNCTIONALITY that way.

If the device only has two SD cards... IF the device only has two SD cards. See, that's where we're having the disagreement. Not about speed, or capacity, or whatever else you think this is about. All of that is secondary to the base argument: get rid of the nand and use one of the existing SD card slots as a defacto boot card; or use the third mmc bus to install an internal SD card to boot off of, leaving the two external SD slots as they are. All of your arguments for more speed and capacity is based entirely on the premise that there will only be one external slot, and the internal slot necessarily has to be the boot drive. That is poor planning, removing the second SD slot is a bad idea because it subtracts useful features for almost zero benefit.


You want ultra high speed and are willing to sacrifice an SD slot for it? Fine, get your ultra high speed SD card and use that in one of the external slots. Those of us that have no problem waiting the extra 15 seconds for the system to boot can then continue using both SD slots as ejectable media. Everyone wins. I don't understand why you are so deadset against this.

 

[SNESFAN]

@grench not going to jump into the argument, just going to leave this here and walk away.


full sd


http://www.sandisk.com/products/dslr/ultra-sdhc-sdxc-uhs-i-card-30mbs


micro sd


http://www.sandisk.c...rds-for-android


stupid expensive but bleeding edge fast full sd


http://www.sandisk.c...-i-memory-cards


EDIT:


I agree in general with the full sd internal vs microsd for speed, if it comes down to slimming down as much as possible/surface area I say go for micro.. but keep the two external full + 1 internal (format depending on available physical space)


you can always use micro cards with an adapter, but you can't shrink a full card down to a micro slot.

 

[Foxgod]

@grench not going to jump into the argument, just going to leave this here and walk away.


full sd


http://www.sandisk.c...hs-i-card-30mbs


micro sd


http://www.sandisk.c...rds-for-android


stupid expensive but bleeding edge fast full sd


http://www.sandisk.c...-i-memory-cards

Oh no, your in it now, so grab your feces and start throwing, youre not getting away from this!


Anyway, what is the reward for winning this discussion, being able to tell craig n ed in person what you think of it?

 

[fusion_power]

you can always use micro cards with an adapter, but you can't shrink a full card down to a micro slot.

I have SD cards since GP2X and of course I also want to use them in future Handheld Devices. I have not a single micro SD and I guess alot of people are in the same situation. And personaly, I find micro SD way to tiny, they may be lost within minutes, or blowin away by fresh air or a Fly steals it...

 

[_wb_]

The important thing to me is that micro SD cards can easily be used in full SD slots, but not the other way around. As time goes by, I like to be able to buy a new, faster and bigger card, and start using it as my "main" card, i.e. the one that essentially does not leave my device. The old cards then get demoted to "auxiliary" cards, useful for swapping data around or storing rarely used stuff, but not to keep inside the device all the time.


Now if there is an internal slot, I would probably use that as my "main" slot. If that slot is micro SD, then I'll always have to buy micro SD cards when I want something bigger and better. So all my "auxiliary" cards would over time also be micro SD cards, in a full SD holder so they fit in the front slot(s). I could just as well have ONLY micro SD slots then. But as Grench pointed out, micro SD lags behind full SD in terms of capacity, speed and price. So this is not a desirable situation - and I would probably end up not using the internal micro SD slot at all.

 

[craigix]

There is no way we can make it smaller and keep full sized SD. No other similar sized devices use full sized SD anymore, by 2014 full sized SD will be on its way out and mini/micro will be way out selling it, which will make mini/micro the market leader for price and spec.

 

[infinity]

But a good Fullsize SD is still much faster than a Class10 Micro


On a Fullsize you can get a reading speed of 90MB/s the fastest Micro SD I have seen so far was a 30MB/s Class10

 

[craigix]

Right, but that's now, in 2012. We're looking ahead to 2014.

 

[Foxgod]

How much difference would it make overall in angstrom?


Does it really need 90mb/s ?


And yeah, they should be faster end of 2013, early 2014.

 

[infinity]

I think you should keep the Size.


Make a 3rd Slot for one MicroSD under the Battery for a 2nd OS and put a 32GB NAND in to the Pandora2 so you can make 2 Partitions with 16GB each and put a Klikibunti OS like Ubuntu on one Partition and the "old" Pandora OS in an upgraded version to the other Partition, and make an option to ship it with a preinstalled Micro SD with Android on it for the guys who want the Pandora as an Android game Console.

 

[Exophase]

8GB RAM implies a 64bit machine. Likely quad core 2Ghz or so. Likely USB 3.0. Likely 1080p 3d graphics capable with several hundred MB of graphics ram - maybe shared from the 8GB.

Now you're totally leaving reality. There's no 64-bit SoC suitable for something with the power budget of Pandora. The only hope would be if Intel decides to release a < 1W Atom that doesn't have x86-64 fused off. Even Medfield does not apply. For OPT to hit a late 2013 release date they'll probably have to obtain at least engineering samples by early next year at the very latest. You won't see mobile SoCs with ARM64 or MIPS64 or whatever in that timeframe.


It may or may not have USB 3. It probably won't have dedicated VRAM, definitely not several hundred MB worth. The graphics, while maybe "1080p capable" on some level, will not surpass XBox 360 and PS3 (which are generally NOT considered 1080p capable)

With a quad core CPU, 8GB RAM and a fast USB 3.0 controller to the SD media, this thing should be able to emulate a Wii, Playstation and even an XBox (Pentium III).

Having more than oh, 1GB of RAM (probably much less really) doesn't help you with emulating those consoles. Having a USB 3 driven SD controller does not help you emulate those consoles. Having four cores over two only minimally helps you emulate those consoles. Having 2GHz 32nm or 28nm processor that is low power enough to run in Pandora 2's power budget will not give you enough single threaded performance to emulate those consoles at full speed.


And let me add that I definitely hope that OPT does not follow your desire to put a USB 3 SD card reader on the PCB instead of using the SoC's native SD capabilities. Hopefully the SoC itself will have fast enough SD access to make this moot, then everyone will be happy and we won't have to put up with your complaints. But now that it's confirmed that all the SD cards will be micro I think we're going to be in for one hell of a lot..


By the way, chances are that an external USB 3 SD card reader would have a comparable amount of PCB space and routing requirements as a microSD slot (more for your USB 3 hub). So you're intent on saying there's no room for the internal microSD slot but there is for the USB 3 card reader. You'll have to ask yourself what's likely to be more desired by Pandora's current clientele - internal boot microSD + two external SD (sorry, microSD, Craig's call I guess!) or two USB 3 speed SD (sorry, microSD!!).

Right now the Pandora is similar to the Zenith Z-note 486/25 I used to use in DOS emulation speed.

Now we're talking about possibly emulating something in the range of Pentium III to Pentium IV.

You're seriously going way off the deep end here.


Something in the range of Pentium 3 to Pentium 4 is going to be like, 800MHz Pentium 3. That's got to be about 50 times faster than your 25MHz 486. I am not fucking with you. Pandora 2 will not have 50 times the CPU capability of Pandora 1. Not even if you add the performance of every last core together, which would do a fat load of nothing when talking about emulating late 90s PCs that only had one core.


Pandora 2 will probably have something around a 2GHz Cortex-A15. That will be oh, maybe 1.8x more powerful per clock than Cortex-A8, at 2x the clock, gives you about 3.6x the CPU power per core. That is, IF the performance of the memory subsystem doesn't screw you; don't underestimate the ability for SoC vendors today to come out with awful memory subsystems. And hope that it doesn't hit any of the Cortex-A15's glass jaws, like its two way set associative L1 cache.

Similar to a VirtualBox session on an X86 Linux machine, we would be able to have multiple ARM VMs running in the background that we can toggle in and out. Having one with an iPod, one with an Android, and more running in VM sessions simultaneously should be hardware-possible. Yes, that would require the software to catch up - which it won't do without a platform to do it on.

That'll require the software to catch up, which it won't do without the platform. Good argument! Not like this sort of software would ever be developed for markets that'll use the same SoCs but sells hundreds of times the volume, especially now that they're incorporating keyboard docks and USB for gamepads and stuff.


The very thought of even emulating iOS on a non-Apple platform has all sorts of technical obstacles that goes far beyond the level of hardware virtualization it has. But if it happens I can all but guarantee that it'll happen for Android first (where if it can sell without Apple shutting it down it'll make millions)

This opens huge capabilities - that are going to require the fast CPU, big RAM, big fast storage, high resolution screen and high speed networking - all in a tiny package that fits in your pocket.

Your argument is suddenly feeling awfully circular.

Given the 'specs' that have so far been implied - this sounds like a whole new frontier in hand held computing. I'm excited just to have a ring side seat!

I'd be pretty excited too if I had your imagination and disconnection from reality!

 

[Foxgod]

8GB RAM implies a 64bit machine. Likely quad core 2Ghz or so. Likely USB 3.0. Likely 1080p 3d graphics capable with several hundred MB of graphics ram - maybe shared from the 8GB.

Now you're totally leaving reality. There's no 64-bit SoC suitable for something with the power budget of Pandora. The only hope would be if Intel decides to release a < 1W Atom that doesn't have x86-64 fused off. Even Medfield does not apply. For OPT to hit a late 2013 release date they'll probably have to obtain at least engineering samples by early next year at the very latest. You won't see mobile SoCs with ARM64 or MIPS64 or whatever in that timeframe.


It may or may not have USB 3. It probably won't have dedicated VRAM, definitely not several hundred MB worth. The graphics, while maybe "1080p capable" on some level, will not surpass XBox 360 and PS3 (which are generally NOT considered 1080p capable)

With a quad core CPU, 8GB RAM and a fast USB 3.0 controller to the SD media, this thing should be able to emulate a Wii, Playstation and even an XBox (Pentium III).

Having more than oh, 1GB of RAM (probably much less really) doesn't help you with emulating those consoles. Having a USB 3 driven SD controller does not help you emulate those consoles. Having four cores over two only minimally helps you emulate those consoles. Having 2GHz 32nm or 28nm processor that is low power enough to run in Pandora 2's power budget will not give you enough single threaded performance to emulate those consoles at full speed.


And let me add that I definitely hope that OPT does not follow your desire to put a USB 3 SD card reader on the PCB instead of using the SoC's native SD capabilities. Hopefully the SoC itself will have fast enough SD access to make this moot, then everyone will be happy and we won't have to put up with your complaints. But now that it's confirmed that all the SD cards will be micro I think we're going to be in for one hell of a lot..

Right now the Pandora is similar to the Zenith Z-note 486/25 I used to use in DOS emulation speed.

Now we're talking about possibly emulating something in the range of Pentium III to Pentium IV.

You're seriously going way off the deep end here.


Something in the range of Pentium 3 to Pentium 4 is going to be like, 800MHz Pentium 3. That's got to be about 50 times faster than your 25MHz 486. I am not fucking with you. Pandora 2 will not have 50 times the CPU capability of Pandora 1. Not even if you add the performance of every last core together, which would do a fat load of nothing when talking about emulating late 90s PCs that only had one core.


Pandora 2 will probably have something around a 2GHz Cortex-A15. That will be oh, maybe 1.8x more powerful per clock than Cortex-A8, at 2x the clock, gives you about 3.6x the CPU power per core. That is, IF the performance of the memory subsystem doesn't screw you; don't underestimate the ability for SoC vendors today to come out with awful memory subsystems. And hope that it doesn't hit any of the Cortex-A15's glass jaws, like its two way set associative L1 cache.

Similar to a VirtualBox session on an X86 Linux machine, we would be able to have multiple ARM VMs running in the background that we can toggle in and out. Having one with an iPod, one with an Android, and more running in VM sessions simultaneously should be hardware-possible. Yes, that would require the software to catch up - which it won't do without a platform to do it on.

That'll require the software to catch up, which it won't do without the platform. Good argument! Not like this sort of software would ever be developed for markets that'll use the same SoCs but sells hundreds of times the volume, especially now that they're incorporating keyboard docks and USB for gamepads and stuff.


The very thought of even emulating iOS on a non-Apple platform has all sorts of technical obstacles that goes far beyond the level of hardware virtualization it has. But if it happens I can all but guarantee that it'll happen for Android first (where if it can sell without Apple shutting it down it'll make millions)

This opens huge capabilities - that are going to require the fast CPU, big RAM, big fast storage, high resolution screen and high speed networking - all in a tiny package that fits in your pocket.

Your argument is suddenly feeling awfully circular.

Given the 'specs' that have so far been implied - this sounds like a whole new frontier in hand held computing. I'm excited just to have a ring side seat!

I'd be pretty excited too if I had your imagination and disconnection from reality!

Dude, i respect your knowledge, but chill out.


Theres nothing wrong with dreaming, good idea´s come from it.

 

[Exophase]

Dude, i respect your knowledge, but chill out.
Theres nothing wrong with dreaming, good idea´s come from it.

Why are you so offended by people being called wrong?

 

[Foxgod]

Dude, i respect your knowledge, but chill out.
Theres nothing wrong with dreaming, good idea´s come from it.

Why are you so offended by people being called wrong?

Its not the calling them wrong thing, its okay to correct people, but to put it positively, youre a tad bit too passionate with it.

 

[WizardStan]

Theres nothing wrong with dreaming, good idea´s come from it.

There's a sharp difference between dreaming you can fly and seriously talking about building wings out of feathers and wax.

 

[Foxgod]

Theres nothing wrong with dreaming, good idea´s come from it.

There's a sharp difference between dreaming you can fly and seriously talking about building wings out of feathers and wax.

Nice one to bring up, because back in the days two brothers where called enormous idiots by many for claiming that mankind could fly.

 

[Exophase]

Its not the calling them wrong thing, its okay to correct people, but to put it positively, youre a tad bit too passionate with it.

I'm pretty sure I'm not quite as passionate as Grench as has been. Are you giving him warning points too?


To each their own, really. I personally don't get much value at your little jabs of disapproval sprinkled throughout this thread but if that's what you really want to do please be my guest.

 

[Foxgod]

Its not the calling them wrong thing, its okay to correct people, but to put it positively, youre a tad bit too passionate with it.

I'm pretty sure I'm not quite as passionate as Grench as has been. Are you giving him warning points too?


To each their own, really. I personally don't get much value at your little jabs of disapproval sprinkled throughout this thread but if that's what you really want to do please be my guest.

What i really like is staying platonic with people i dont know, instead of taking things to a personal level.