Pandora 2 specifications and price

[ekianjo]

Ok, I get your points. About the cost part though, you cannot deny all the options you mention have a cost, plus don't forget that you will only get a low volume for each part so it will not be as dirty cheap as the ones found in other devices because OPT won't get the same rebates. And even if the cost is "low", adding more and more parts end up adding a non-negligible cost. And more chances of hardware failure, as well, since you multiply the number of things that can go wrong with your device.


About RAM, I don't agree with you there. RAM is super important to be able to launch large applications. If you want to use GIMP to edit large pictures in RAW mode, you needs tons of RAM. If you are browsing with 10 tabs opened you need tons of RAM. If you have several applications opened at once, more RAM will almost always make it better. I see the Pandora 2 as a fully portable computer that I can carry around and plug on a big screen when needed - something that would have enough power that it does not make me feel like I'm using a portable device.


About Android: I'm not sure whether you are an exception or if you represent more Pandora clients so far. I'm under the assumption that most people here would already have a smartphone (iOs or Android already) before even buying a Pandora. I may be wrong. But Android is not going to be a differentiatior for that device at all. And people who don't know Pandora will just think "another machine running Android..." -> there's no WOW factor associated. It's just "like everyone else" at this stage. I don't know people who want a system that runs Android will simply WAIT for Pandora 2 - they can already get much better alternatives for that with other manufacturers.


About patents, do not minimize the issue. The Galaxy S 3 from Samsung has a completely different shape than its predecessor because of patents conflict with iPhone's design. Patents go very, very far in terms of scope nowadays.


Ubuntu: you can run the GUI you like best... KDE, Gnome 2, Cinnamon, XFCE... and some people like Unity. It's not a bad choice in terms of distro. And a lot of people (at least in the Linux world) have heard of ubuntu, so it has some recognition Angstrom does not have. And is updated very often.


Anyway, we'll see what they decide to do.

 

[anexanhume]

I read before that the "Nova" and "Thor" part were the main SoC and baseband lines respectively.. or something like that. Still, according to the wikipedia list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NovaThor) A9600 is just "Nova".. which confuses me further since I've always seen it as part of the NovaThor line as I'm sure you have.. >_>


I get the feeling that STE is going to have a hard road actually bringing this to market, like usual. I'm surprised STMicro can actually manage 28nm on their own at all. If I were to guess I'd expect Exynos 5250 to hit the market in a real device first, then OMAP5. Whether or not OPT can actually get a hold of them is another story, although Samsung at least seems to have been willing to sell a small number of their SoCs if hackable enough to qualify as a dev kit.

Then we share the confusion.


Exynos 5250 is actually supposed to be in production according to original estimates. Supposedly it will show up in a tablet first, meaning I guess we can expect it in the next galaxy tab.

 

[Foxgod]

I read before that the "Nova" and "Thor" part were the main SoC and baseband lines respectively.. or something like that. Still, according to the wikipedia list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NovaThor) A9600 is just "Nova".. which confuses me further since I've always seen it as part of the NovaThor line as I'm sure you have.. >_>


I get the feeling that STE is going to have a hard road actually bringing this to market, like usual. I'm surprised STMicro can actually manage 28nm on their own at all. If I were to guess I'd expect Exynos 5250 to hit the market in a real device first, then OMAP5. Whether or not OPT can actually get a hold of them is another story, although Samsung at least seems to have been willing to sell a small number of their SoCs if hackable enough to qualify as a dev kit.

Then we share the confusion.


Exynos 5250 is actually supposed to be in production according to original estimates. Supposedly it will show up in a tablet first, meaning I guess we can expect it in the next galaxy tab.

As long as it can be delivered in quantities of thousands maximum after summer 2013, it will be an option to the team.

 

[Exophase]

Ok, I get your points. About the cost part though, you cannot deny all the options you mention have a cost, plus don't forget that you will only get a low volume for each part so it will not be as dirty cheap as the ones found in other devices because OPT won't get the same rebates. And even if the cost is "low", adding more and more parts end up adding a non-negligible cost. And more chances of hardware failure, as well, since you multiply the number of things that can go wrong with your device.

Okay, but only if you know the costs can you really make a fair assessment, and that'd probably go with both of us. I think they should include these things if the cost is not large. At the very least you can get accelerometers in low quantity for under $1, and GPS comes as part of some Wifi/BT combo chips these days.

About RAM, I don't agree with you there. RAM is super important to be able to launch large applications. If you want to use GIMP to edit large pictures in RAW mode, you needs tons of RAM. If you are browsing with 10 tabs opened you need tons of RAM. If you have several applications opened at once, more RAM will almost always make it better. I see the Pandora 2 as a fully portable computer that I can carry around and plug on a big screen when needed - something that would have enough power that it does not make me feel like I'm using a portable device.

I didn't mean to imply RAM is not important and that more of it is not useful, what I wanted to make clear is that there's an upper limit on how much RAM the SoC physically supports and it may be a lot lower than you think. And anything beyond 4GB is pushing the limits of useful due to addressing limitations.


And even if the device can physically take a lot of RAM there are practical considerations like what packaging arrangements you can get. You don't want a bunch of RAM if it involves throwing 8 big ICs on the board. So the mindset that they shouldn't have included X because they could have put more RAM on it instead has limitations.

About Android: I'm not sure whether you are an exception or if you represent more Pandora clients so far. I'm under the assumption that most people here would already have a smartphone (iOs or Android already) before even buying a Pandora. I may be wrong. But Android is not going to be a differentiatior for that device at all. And people who don't know Pandora will just think "another machine running Android..." -> there's no WOW factor associated. It's just "like everyone else" at this stage. I don't know people who want a system that runs Android will simply WAIT for Pandora 2 - they can already get much better alternatives for that with other manufacturers.

We can argue back and forth about who does or doesn't want Android and who does or doesn't want to "just use their phone", or I mean, we could make polls or something to find out. But none of that changes that Craig has been very clear on wanting the successor to be a first class Android device. So if that's his intention it's best that they don't shoot themselves in the foot by making the interface Android unfriendly.


Obviously there are going to be people who want the device to do a lot of things and won't be happy with being told that SOME of those things can be done by something else. I don't think you'll find that Pandora does any one thing that nothing else can do, it's not sporting any breakthrough technology.. the thing has always been about convergence.

About patents, do not minimize the issue. The Galaxy S 3 from Samsung has a completely different shape than its predecessor because of patents conflict with iPhone's design. Patents go very, very far in terms of scope nowadays.

And yet they skirt away from it just by changing it a little, which shows that patents are pretty damn specific. Like I said, get a patent lawyer and figure something out. Don't just assume you'll be screwed on anything. The whole patent discussion always struck me as an excuse to support the design OPT preferred from day one.

Ubuntu: you can run the GUI you like best... KDE, Gnome 2, Cinnamon, XFCE... and some people like Unity. It's not a bad choice in terms of distro. And a lot of people (at least in the Linux world) have heard of ubuntu, so it has some recognition Angstrom does not have. And is updated very often.

I'm not against having the option but I want at least one major alternative to Unity to be included on whatever is preloaded. Yes I know some people like Unity.


The main compelling argument for Angstrom w/XFCE is that it has already done fine on Pandora and I don't see a lot of people complaining so why change it? Not that I don't think Ubuntu would have advantages (like a much better repository, that the system would hopefully be meant for using off the bat). And it may end up offering better Android interoperability. Just if they go this direction I hope they maintain as much compatibility as possible.

 

[anexanhume]

I read before that the "Nova" and "Thor" part were the main SoC and baseband lines respectively.. or something like that. Still, according to the wikipedia list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NovaThor) A9600 is just "Nova".. which confuses me further since I've always seen it as part of the NovaThor line as I'm sure you have.. >_>


I get the feeling that STE is going to have a hard road actually bringing this to market, like usual. I'm surprised STMicro can actually manage 28nm on their own at all. If I were to guess I'd expect Exynos 5250 to hit the market in a real device first, then OMAP5. Whether or not OPT can actually get a hold of them is another story, although Samsung at least seems to have been willing to sell a small number of their SoCs if hackable enough to qualify as a dev kit.

Then we share the confusion.


Exynos 5250 is actually supposed to be in production according to original estimates. Supposedly it will show up in a tablet first, meaning I guess we can expect it in the next galaxy tab.

As long as it can be delivered in quantities of thousands maximum after summer 2013, it will be an option to the team.

5250 should have an iteration by then (current rumors say the Note 2 will have it, actually), much like the quad core iteration of the current dual-core A9 chip that Samsung has out (4412 if memory serves). We should be looking at a quad core A15 architecture with 2+ GHz cores and quad core Mali T604 GPU in 2013.


Exophase seems to know more about their willingness to deliver in small volume though. Tegra 4 could be interesting given Tegra 3 essentially already has a big.LITTLE configuration with its simple A8 core. I don't know what their approach to homebrew projects like this would be. Maybe they'd be more open to it given the beating they just took from Linus T. on their lack of Linux support. (and lost a huge GPU order from China to AMD)


The good thing is that SoC makers are starting to recognize the tablet segment as an overlapping, but separate, category than the high-end smartphone market, giving more options.

For $700 here's what I expect:


Novathor A9600 level SoC (2.5 Ghz dual core cortex A15) with ImgTec PowerVR 6 'Rogue' GPU.


2 GB LPDDR3.


1280x720P screen. One X screen comes to mind.


Similar keymat and controls with backlighting.


Wifi N, Bluetooth 4.0 support.


HDMI support. For $700, you can afford licensing.


High quality case finish. Soft-touch comes to mind.

You will be pleased to know it will probably meet or exceed most of those specs.

Then I anxiously await the specs as I don't even know anyone committed to volume LPDDR3 shipment or use in SoCs.

 

[Grench]

So - you think that people wouldn't be willing to pay more for better performance?


I guess all of us who signed up for the 1Ghz Pandora offer are all idiots.

You aren't an idiot, just a minority. Expecting the mass to pick up the tab because you absolutely must have the fastest cutting edge is ludicrous. If there weren't a downside to have a full sized SD card I would agree with you 100%, but you are asking everyone to accept a not insignificant footprint increase just so that you personally can use your preference.


There's no point in discussing the merits of a pickup truck if your parking space is only big enough for a smartcar.

You stepped in late so I'll forgive you if you didn't read that entire mess in detail.


Exo stated that even with the microSD he wants inside the unit, that he still wants two full size slots exposed.


My take is, yes, if you're going microSD inside you'll still need two full sized slots because microSD performance and capacity has always sucked.


However, if you were to put one full sized, full USB 3.0 speed SDXC port up behind the battery, you would only need one exposed SD slot on the device.


I'm actually arguing for one less component and a smaller footprint by eliminating the microSD port. Both sides of this argument are for two full size ports - just one of us wants a hidden 3rd port microSD.


Personally, I think they should plan out the SD ports and the external device port to all run off of an internal USB 3.0 hub - essentially making the device 'boot from USB'. The card slots become 'card readers' for all intents and purposes.

LOOK at the links you just provided. microSD IS consistently slower and smaller capacity than the contemporary full sized SD cards. Or are you now going to dismiss your own links/proof?

You're comparing SDXC UHS-I cards to the microSDHC Class 10 cards. Compare the Class 10 to Class 10 and they're within about 5% of speed and cost and that is easily enough for the vast majority of users. If you want a UHS-I speed card then you are free to spend the extra because you CAN get those in microSD format as well as full sized SD. You, the user wanting performance, pays the premium that the average user doesn't care about and can't actually afford. This converts into a savings of space on the board which benefits everyone.

You can't compare class to class and size to size because microSD has always been slower to market. What you're effectively doing by comparing class to class is comparing today's microSD with last year's full sized SD cards. Look at cards by when they are released - and the best equivalents at that time.


My argument is that microSD has always been, and as far as I can tell will always be, 12-24 months (misquoted as years by Exo) behind it's full sized SD counterpart in speed, size and cost.


If we look at 'end of life' cards that have been on the market 2+ years that are on sale at shops - yeah, they're all priced in the same $10-$30 range. The Pandora 2 is a -future- device and needs to be ready for the 'normal' cards of the future. To do that we need to look at the bleeding edge cards of today. Today's bleeding edge is next year's 'normal'.

 

[craigix]

For $700 here's what I expect:


Novathor A9600 level SoC (2.5 Ghz dual core cortex A15) with ImgTec PowerVR 6 'Rogue' GPU.


2 GB LPDDR3.


1280x720P screen. One X screen comes to mind.


Similar keymat and controls with backlighting.


Wifi N, Bluetooth 4.0 support.


HDMI support. For $700, you can afford licensing.


High quality case finish. Soft-touch comes to mind.

You will be pleased to know it will probably meet or exceed most of those specs.

Then I anxiously await the specs as I don't even know anyone committed to volume LPDDR3 shipment or use in SoCs.

You might have to put up with 8GB of DC DDR3.

 

[Foxgod]

For $700 here's what I expect:


Novathor A9600 level SoC (2.5 Ghz dual core cortex A15) with ImgTec PowerVR 6 'Rogue' GPU.


2 GB LPDDR3.


1280x720P screen. One X screen comes to mind.


Similar keymat and controls with backlighting.


Wifi N, Bluetooth 4.0 support.


HDMI support. For $700, you can afford licensing.


High quality case finish. Soft-touch comes to mind.

You will be pleased to know it will probably meet or exceed most of those specs.

Then I anxiously await the specs as I don't even know anyone committed to volume LPDDR3 shipment or use in SoCs.

You might have to put up with 8GB of DC DDR3.

8 GB in a handheld, now youre just fooling with us

 

[craigix]

Pretty normal I'd expect by 2013, or at least available on some top end devices.

 

[Foxgod]

Pretty normal I'd expect by 2013, or at least available on some top end devices.

I hope so, but tablets only i think, would it actually be possible to stuff tablet hardware into a pandora, without making it too big?


Personally i dont think smaller devices such as phones will have more then 2gb in 2013, the higher ends having 3, maybe 4 gb tops.


As of right now, 2GB is the most you can get from a phone, and that one is spanking fresh on the market (S3, samsung).

 

[craigix]

Like a 1080 LCD I think 8GB will be tops for the foreseeable future.


So we may as well go there.

 

[Klumpen]

700€? Count me out.


That would be a bit too snobby for a real alternative to the mainstream handhelds/netbooks.

 

[Foxgod]

Like a 1080 LCD I think 8GB will be tops for the foreseeable future.


So we may as well go there.

If possible, i am all for it, i rather pay 700 for a top notch laptop that fits in my pocket, then 900 for one that doesnt.


Will it still use OMAP, or are other systems being considered?


The reason i ask is, because OMAP5 does indeed support 8 GB of memory, and its out Q3 2013, so seems like a good drop in.

 

[craigix]

You will have to wait until next year to know the answer to that I think.

 

[WizardStan]

Exo stated that even with the microSD he wants inside the unit, that he still wants two full size slots exposed.


My take is, yes, if you're going microSD inside you'll still need two full sized slots because microSD performance and capacity has always sucked.


However, if you were to put one full sized, full USB 3.0 speed SDXC port up behind the battery, you would only need one exposed SD slot on the device.


I'm actually arguing for one less component and a smaller footprint by eliminating the microSD port. Both sides of this argument are for two full size ports - just one of us wants a hidden 3rd port microSD.

Nope. I'm agreeing with exophase on this: no matter what is internal, be it micro or full sized, two readily swapable SD cards is preferable. Adding a microSD internal is a feature increase. Your idea to move one of them internally is a feature decrease. Feature decreases, while not strictly undesirable, should at least be approached with reservation.


Since you would be satisfied with just a single SD card slot, what is preventing you from using your latest, greatest SDXC card in one of the external slots and ignoring the internal? You would be no worse off than if it were internal, and those that don't care about the latest, greatest are satisfied and able to continue using two cards of choice. Everyone wins.

You can't compare class to class and size to size because microSD has always been slower to market. What you're effectively doing by comparing class to class is comparing today's microSD with last year's full sized SD cards. Look at cards by when they are released - and the best equivalents at that time.

Except if you look at average benchmarks of cards RIGHT NOW, Class 10 microSD cards are coming in at just 1 MB/s slower average random access write vs their full sized counterparts. UHS speed microSD cards exist, though I will admit to a greater scarcity, with speeds in the 40-50MB/s sequential reads against the 50-60MB/s full sized card. I cannot imagine any scenario where that extra 10MB/s which only a small handful will ever even attempt to use is worth crippling the device for the vast majority.

 

[Foxgod]

You will have to wait until next year to know the answer to that I think.

Good enough il have plenty to do on the 1ghz unit you guys are cooking for me atm


Was a long wait, but i am glad i didnt decide to upgrade for the rebirth edition, and waited for the 1ghz unit instead.

 

[WizardStan]

You might have to put up with 8GB of DC DDR3.

Is that really necessary? No doubt the cost between 2GB and 8GB is going to be not insignificant, but other than "more is better", what possible justification could you have for wanting to put 8GB into it? We're running the current Pandora's with 256MB. The boost to 512 helps a little. I have 4GB on my desktop and the only reason I even come close to that is because Firefox (which I try to avoid now). Even Chromium, I open 150 tabs and barely crack 2GB of RAM. I don't even hit that when I clean-build my kernel on all 6 cores.


Seriously, 8GB would be great if it actually gets utilized, but wasted capacity is wasted money. Can we get a cost:benefit analysis here?

 

[Foxgod]

You might have to put up with 8GB of DC DDR3.

Is that really necessary? No doubt the cost between 2GB and 8GB is going to be not insignificant, but other than "more is better", what possible justification could you have for wanting to put 8GB into it? We're running the current Pandora's with 256MB. The boost to 512 helps a little. I have 4GB on my desktop and the only reason I even come close to that is because Firefox (which I try to avoid now). Even Chromium, I open 150 tabs and barely crack 2GB of RAM. I don't even hit that when I clean-build my kernel on all 6 cores.


Seriously, 8GB would be great if it actually gets utilized, but wasted capacity is wasted money. Can we get a cost:benefit analysis here?

Youre going to need the 8 GB if you want to run FireFox and Internet Explorer side by side on the Pandora 2.


Something that most desktops today struggle with.


But seriously, Memory is one of these things you cant have enough of, and high numbers of RAM are also good for marketing.


I am sure that plenty of games and apps running trough OS emulation are going to be thankfull for it.


But i am not sure if it can be pulled off, the OMAP 5 may support it, but it still has to be able to fit into the case, then theres also the heat generation to consider.


4GB would probably be more realistic.


But if the team can pull it off,. i am all for it, memory is cheap these days, so adding the full 8 GB wont cause a huge price increase.


The real money suckers are the screen and the SOC, and you cant go without those, so why sacrifice on the ram?

 

[craigix]

You might have to put up with 8GB of DC DDR3.

Is that really necessary? No doubt the cost between 2GB and 8GB is going to be not insignificant, but other than "more is better", what possible justification could you have for wanting to put 8GB into it? We're running the current Pandora's with 256MB. The boost to 512 helps a little. I have 4GB on my desktop and the only reason I even come close to that is because Firefox (which I try to avoid now). Even Chromium, I open 150 tabs and barely crack 2GB of RAM. I don't even hit that when I clean-build my kernel on all 6 cores.


Seriously, 8GB would be great if it actually gets utilized, but wasted capacity is wasted money. Can we get a cost:benefit analysis here?

Useful in 2014? Yes, I'd expect it will be.


And by the end of 2013 I don't expect 4-8GB of RAM to be a cost issue.


Consider that when we finally bought the 256MB modules for the P1, they were cheaper than the 128MB ones.

 

[Foxgod]

You might have to put up with 8GB of DC DDR3.

Is that really necessary? No doubt the cost between 2GB and 8GB is going to be not insignificant, but other than "more is better", what possible justification could you have for wanting to put 8GB into it? We're running the current Pandora's with 256MB. The boost to 512 helps a little. I have 4GB on my desktop and the only reason I even come close to that is because Firefox (which I try to avoid now). Even Chromium, I open 150 tabs and barely crack 2GB of RAM. I don't even hit that when I clean-build my kernel on all 6 cores.


Seriously, 8GB would be great if it actually gets utilized, but wasted capacity is wasted money. Can we get a cost:benefit analysis here?

Useful in 2014? Yes, I'd expect it will be.


And by the end of 2013 I don't expect 4-8GB of RAM to be a cost issue.


Consider that when we finally bought the 256MB modules for the P1, they were cheaper than the 128MB ones.

The only other thing we have to hope for by then, is that Ps2 and Gamecube emulation will have gone opensource, or at least will have a Linux-Arm version floating around


Qemu will be happy too with all the added power.