Moderating: SONY Vs SONY

[WizardStan]

I am confused, how is Craig being intolerant? This is the world of Open Source, if he has a vision for a better way of doing it, he is more than welcome to.

It's come up a few times. If Craig were just some random dev with an idea to do things differently there'd be no problem. It would live or die based entirely on its own merits.


Craig is not just a random dev, what he is designing is (or was considered at the time) to be what would be "official". It would live and be used regardless of whether it was actually good or not, and designing something that the community will be expected to use without consulting what the community actually wants, especially when the community had already been discussing it and solved a lot of the problems Craig is seeking to solve, was a major slap in the face to those developers.

 

[Mr Rob]

He merely postulated that he had an idea and discredits all the work the community has done towards the same goal so far. During this he avoided discussion and refused to present arguments when challenged. He vaguely mentions having his own spec, but when asked to share it he goes silent. He states as fact that solutions are overly complex but ignores specific use cases that are addressed by that very complexity. This is not a productive way to discuss development.

Then let him be vague. He might very well come around in three months with the most thorough and beautiful solution in the world, or he might find the community spec to be the best. These things sometimes just need to cook for a while.

I am confused, how is Craig being intolerant? This is the world of Open Source, if he has a vision for a better way of doing it, he is more than welcome to.

It's come up a few times. If Craig were just some random dev with an idea to do things differently there'd be no problem. It would live or die based entirely on its own merits.


Craig is not just a random dev, what he is designing is (or was considered at the time) to be what would be "official". It would live and be used regardless of whether it was actually good or not, and designing something that the community will be expected to use without consulting what the community actually wants, especially when the community had already been discussing it and solved a lot of the problems Craig is seeking to solve, was a major slap in the face to those developers.

Let the best solution bubble to the top. Competition is good.


The thing that seems to bug people the most is that we'll end up with essentially two repositories in which either devs will need to update their apps in both, or the two repos will have different versions, yes? I imagine two solutions: a PND maker that builds for each spec and uploads them to both repositories (though that's a boring solution), or a script that can sync both repositories on the server end (could be fun to build). Thus end users can use either repository and associated update-apps and no ones the wiser. The Linux systems guy in me says both are easily possible -- I volunteer my systems skills if needed.

 

[WizardStan]

Let the best solution bubble to the top. Competition is good.

Yes, competition is good. Forcing your idea on people just because you are the "leader" is bad. That's the point.


Your idea is exactly what the repo spec solves: developers are free to upload to anywhere that supports the repo spec and it'll just work for all others. Craig has said that he will not support the repo spec. If developers want their stuff on Craig's official AppStore, they will have to upload it there every time. If they also want it in the collective that uses the repo spec, they will have to upload it there as well. All your system skills will mean nothing if Craig has no interest in working with the community.


Given that so far milkshake's repo site is far more dev friendly than Craig's official AppStore, this will leave a glut on the official site as everyone uploads to the repo and procrastinates updating the AppStore, if they ever do. In theory, this should mean it would eventually disappear and Craig learns a valuable lesson. In practice, the fear is that Craig will continue to promote the AppStore anyway, going so far as to manually maintain the apps, leading to misaligned data at best and improper licensing at worst.

 

[Jourdy288]

I do not approve of this

Give me valid reasons as to why you don't agree with it.

You are acting like someone who does not agree with how history went and is now trying to rewrite all books about it. That is just plain stupid.


You should not have posted what you posted in the first place, still you did and now you got to live with it.


Sure it looks different now you are a mod, but still this is no valid reason to "whitewash" your past.


You are not a member of OP, your posts are nothing "official" you are a member of this community like everyone else with the slight difference that you have more rights on this board than we have (for some reason).


It is the past and if you start behaving properly now, nobody will read those posts of yours any more because they will be buried in new posts and threads in a matter of days.


I am the most uncomfortable with you editing other peoples posts, too. Sure you are just trying to let it "make sense", but others peoples posts are their personal space and you should not invade that.


Edit: Also, have you considered that one of first things you have to do as a mod is to "rewrite" most (if it were just some you hardly would have to do it) of your old posts. Not a good sign of you being the right person to have this job is it?


That is not to say I completely disagree with this decision, I just find it... interesting.


You have the power to change, but for the future, not the past.

*SIGH* Is there no winning here? The man's trying to clean up his past!


Admittedly, it looks a wee bit like he's trying to hide something, but you know what? It'll make these boards a better place.

 

[Mr Rob]

Yes, competition is good. Forcing your idea on people just because you are the "leader" is bad. That's the point.


Your idea is exactly what the repo spec solves: developers are free to upload to anywhere that supports the repo spec and it'll just work for all others. Craig has said that he will not support the repo spec. If developers want their stuff on Craig's official AppStore, they will have to upload it there every time. If they also want it in the collective that uses the repo spec, they will have to upload it there as well. All your system skills will mean nothing if Craig has no interest in working with the community.

I would assume that even if he doesn't accept the community spec, he'll make his own and there will be some logic/consistency at least within it. As long as the community follows their spec and Craig follows his spec, compatibility/converting between the two should be possible.

Given that so far milkshake's repo site is far more dev friendly than Craig's official AppStore, this will leave a glut on the official site as everyone uploads to the repo and procrastinates updating the AppStore, if they ever do. In theory, this should mean it would eventually disappear and Craig learns a valuable lesson. In practice, the fear is that Craig will continue to promote the AppStore anyway, going so far as to manually maintain the apps, leading to misaligned data at best and improper licensing at worst.

I have a gut feeling that Craig's AppStore is not the final copy of his vision at all. Just as the PNDStore isn't the final copy of that vision, either, and the community repo spec isn't final. Eventually the first and second batches will be complete, and when they start producing tens of thousands of these we'll have a good system in place born from the battle between them both. I'm curious to see what he has in store. I'm also going to re-read the threads on the specs, I find those interesting.


The real scary thing is that one day I'll have 15 cups of coffee and try to re-implement everything using aptitude and Debian packages.

 

[WizardStan]

I would assume that even if he doesn't accept the community spec, he'll make his own and there will be some logic/consistency at least within it. As long as the community follows their spec and Craig follows his spec, compatibility/converting between the two should be possible.

He's said he created a spec, long long ago, but hasn't given any information on it, though it's been requested several times. There was an unspoken offer


Either way, you are half right: if Craig releases his spec, the PNDStore and other such repo programs can be made to look at both the repo and the AppStore, however unless Craig has a change of heart and decides to implement the repo, he's not going to get updates sent to those that do. Package managers aren't push services, they're get services: the AppStore would need to request updates from the repo and unless it speaks the repo language it's not going to get anything useful. End result is that the repo sites will have everything including what gets uploaded to the AppStore, while the AppStore still only gets what is uploaded to it specifically. Repo wins again, AppStore falls further behind, yet I'm still fearful that it is AppStore that will be promoted the most.


Unless the upcoming v2.0 is a major revolution over the existing v1.0, I can't imagine people taking the time to upload it there. Uploading to milkshake's repo is just so slick and easy.


edit: strikethrough a thought I apparently started but didn't finish and have no idea where I was going.

 

[EvilDragon]

For example, move threads, remove insults, cut threads when they're going off-topic...


These jobs have nothing to do with whether you're biased or not.

Of course they do.


If a mod is biased to one point of view and sees a thread going against that point of view he can shut it down by claiming repetition or going too far off topic. It's not like that hasn't happened before.

Please read again what I've written above:


Move threads, remove insults and split threads. NOT close threads if he doesn't agree to them, that can be done by someone else.


If someone discusses about the PSP2 in the General Pandora section, this can be safely moved.If someone calls someone else an asshole, this can be edited out.


These are things that also help the boards and CAN be done by any mod, biased or not.

A new name could be a good start, but usually it will not help for long. That was proved before by horny2k and his new nick DerJochen.

Hey, that gives me an idea... DerJochen... mumblemumble... moderator... mumblemumble... hehe, naaah, just kidding

 

[Mr Rob]

He's said he created a spec, long long ago, but hasn't given any information on it, though it's been requested several times. There was an unspoken offer


Either way, you are half right: if Craig releases his spec, the PNDStore and other such repo programs can be made to look at both the repo and the AppStore, however unless Craig has a change of heart and decides to implement the repo, he's not going to get updates sent to those that do. Package managers aren't push services, they're get services: the AppStore would need to request updates from the repo and unless it speaks the repo language it's not going to get anything useful. End result is that the repo sites will have everything including what gets uploaded to the AppStore, while the AppStore still only gets what is uploaded to it specifically. Repo wins again, AppStore falls further behind, yet I'm still fearful that it is AppStore that will be promoted the most.


Unless the upcoming v2.0 is a major revolution over the existing v1.0, I can't imagine people taking the time to upload it there. Uploading to milkshake's repo is just so slick and easy.


edit: strikethrough a thought I apparently started but didn't finish and have no idea where I was going.

In either case, we'll see what happens they get big. Fascinatingly enough, the only app site listed in the paper 'Quick Start' guide that comes with the device itself points to the Open Handheld site. Wacky!

Hey, that gives me an idea... DerJochen... mumblemumble... moderator... mumblemumble... hehe, naaah, just kidding

Google Translate has failed me. Der is 'the', what's 'Jochen'? I know some Russian, but not very savvy with the German.

 

[Trip]

For example, move threads, remove insults, cut threads when they're going off-topic...


These jobs have nothing to do with whether you're biased or not.

Of course they do.


If a mod is biased to one point of view and sees a thread going against that point of view he can shut it down by claiming repetition or going too far off topic. It's not like that hasn't happened before.

Please read again what I've written above:


Move threads, remove insults and split threads. NOT close threads if he doesn't agree to them, that can be done by someone else.

You might want to let Sony know what it is that he will be capable of then as he seems to think that he will be able to remove them <_<

* Only if the thread is out of context or doesn't really make sense after editing, but if a thread is a lost cause (thankfully, I recall only ONLY ONE THREAD being so), then I will have no choice but to remove it from public view.

I would assume that he would be able to lock it too if he can remove??

 

[Klaue]

Google Translate has failed me. Der is 'the', what's 'Jochen'? I know some Russian, but not very savvy with the German.

Jochen is just a german name - it's a short version of Joachim


[/offtopic]

 

[THB]

Just proves you can be a racist homophobe and spam the forum with stupid threads all you like, as long as you kiss craigs arse, you too can be a mod.

 

[Null]

as long as you kiss craigs arse, you too can be a mod.

I shall start immediately , mind you i'm not too sure i'd make a brilliant mod because I was made one once on a computer forum, it shut down soon afterwards, not that there could have been a link between the two oh no.

 

[Linopoly]

* Only if the thread is out of context or doesn't really make sense after editing, but if a thread is a lost cause (thankfully, I recall only ONLY ONE THREAD being so), then I will have no choice but to remove it from public view.

I would assume that he would be able to lock it too if he can remove??

He already locked the original thread where people were complaining that he was made a mod. He gave a rationale, but I don't think it makes up for the obvious conflict of interest. I can't blame him for wanting to lock a thread like that, but moderators shouldn't be using their privileges on threads that they have a personal interest in.