Latest update: Keymats are here, how strong will the logo plate be - and pretty cases.

[EvilDragon]

No we don't, because the samples were not the final ones. The painted cases were just not painted with the final color/coating, as you kindly told us in your current post.

We needed to find out whether a coat with a color would cause any physical problems (stiffy shoulder buttons, etc.) and whether it hides most of the problems.
The type of color doesn't matter in that regards, as the final color used has the same thickness (0.03mm) and opacity, it just adds more scratch resistance and has a slightly different color.

So the color we used confirmed what we needed to know, nothing else.

You'd rather have waited a few more weeks just to find out what we now already know with the sample color used?

I hope you do not want to compare sunlight with normal lamplight here? These two light sources could not be more different. Normal light is usually called sunlight. Everything else is more or less special lighting. Maybe you are so kind and make your discolorization video under normal sunlight ? Then we could see the difference, if any.

Did you even read my previous answer? All these optical issues are VERY visible in ANY light. LED, sunlight, 3200K bulb, whatever. ANY light. Not any SPECIAL light.
If you followed this thread than you could've read that everyone who visited at GamesCom confirmed it's very visible.
While the final revisions were better, they're not good enough.

No it doesn't. We have to wait for the coating company ordering final color and produce, the maybe, final painted test cases. Only then can it be decided whether this paint is suitable for mass production. As I stated/complained in one of my previous posts (here and here), this will quite take some time and money, of course (carefully spoken).

Either you don't read my anwers properly or you don't want to understand them.

Here are the two ways we had to test and solve this:

First option:

• Coat the existing cases with a sample color that's available at the company. Time to do this: About 1 week. At the same time, order a sample of the correct color (about two weeks).
• Once we confirm that everything is physically working and the color hides the visible issues: Start the mass production of the cases (probably about 4 weeks)
• At the same time, the color has arrived and we can produce samples with the correct color (about a week). Then order the amount needed for mass production (about two weeks again)
• The color should arrive roughly the same time as the cases, so we can start right away.

Second option:

• Order the correct sample color (and wait for about 2 weeks)
• Produce the samples with the correct color (takes another week)
• Once we confirm that everything is physically working and the color hides the visible issues: Start the mass production of the cases (probably about four weeks)
• Order the color for mass production (about two weeks)
• The color arrives, the mass produced cases take about 2 weeks longer

So the second option doesn't have any advantages, it just delays things a bit more.
I don't know the exact timeframe for the case mass production and delivery, but that should be pretty accurate (I ordered 2500 MegaDrive shells from Uniqueplast and they arrived after about 2,5 weeks).

I'm not sure what your issue with the coating is. Coating is not some magical witch's work, it's pretty much standard. Everything the coating manufacturer needs to know is which plastic we are using so the grounding / coat is the correct one.
These companies paint and produce paint for millions items each day... they're no amateurs.

I think at this point, there is no more time or money for testing for suitability, this project has gone on for far too long to go back and get everything 100%. It's already known ED will likely make zero profit from this project, and likely end up still with a bunch of debt. The painted samples EvilDragon has already got proves their painting process works, it should be enough to trust they can do it properly even if it's not the final paint choice.

Once the 1000 Pyras are delivered, we should be at about -250k EUR.

 

[pmprog]

Once we confirm that everything is physically working and the color hides the visible issues: Start the mass production of the cases (probably about 4 weeks)

Why are you waiting to order the cases until the paint is confirmed? Why not just order the cases and ship them to the paint company when you're ready for that

 

[EvilDragon]

Why are you waiting to order the cases until the paint is confirmed? Why not just order the cases and ship them to the paint company when you're ready for that

? Not sure what you mean with that.
If the coating would've added a bit too much thickness at some areas, for example at the peg of the shoulder buttons so that they are too tight (that's exactly what happened with the Pandora and is the reason we needed to use a drill to fix every shoulder button), then this would need a tiny mould change.

If we found that out AFTER receiving 1000 cases, that would be a bit problematic.

 

[pmprog]

? Not sure what you mean with that.
If the coating would've added a bit too much thickness at some areas, for example at the peg of the shoulder buttons so that they are too tight (that's exactly what happened with the Pandora and is the reason we needed to use a drill to fix every shoulder button), then this would need a tiny mould change.

If we found that out AFTER receiving 1000 cases, that would be a bit problematic.

Maybe I'm missing something then. You said your test paint had confirmed everything about painting you needed to know, so in which case you know no modifications are required to the moulds, and thus I'm confused why you'd delay the manufacture of the cases.

 

[EvilDragon]

Maybe I'm missing something then. You said your test paint had confirmed everything about painting you needed to know, so in which case you know no modifications are required to the moulds, and thus I'm confused why you'd delay the manufacture of the cases.

But... there is no delay...?
I already told Azouls that the color doesn't affect the case, so we can prepare the mass production.

 

[pmprog]

But... there is no delay...?
I already told Azouls that the color doesn't affect the case, so we can prepare the mass production.

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

From your options, I read this:
Weeks 1 order proper paint
Week 3 receive paint and test
Week 4 order cases
Week 8 receive case
Week 9 painting...

But if, as you said, the paint job you have already run confirms everything you need to know about the paint. Why wait the first three weeks to before getting the cases made?
If you order the cases now, in three weeks when the paint is ready, you should only be 1 week away from getting the cases, instead of 4.

ie:
Week 1 order cases and paint
Week 3 receive paint
Week 4 receive cases
Week 5 paint

If you are saying that you need to run a new test on the new paint you're mixing up, I think this is where bubblebee was referring to this:

No it doesn't. We have to wait for the coating company ordering final color and produce, the maybe, final painted test cases. Only then can it be decided whether this paint is suitable for mass production. As I stated/complained in one of my previous posts (here and here), this will quite take some time and money, of course (carefully spoken).

Where you've not saved any time, or established anything, because you're having to do all these tests again with the "final" paint.

If that's me misunderstanding something then great, but I hope I've explained what's confused me clearly enough

 

[EvilDragon]

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

From your options, I read this:
Weeks 1 order proper paint
Week 3 receive paint and test
Week 4 order cases
Week 8 receive case
Week 9 painting...

But if, as you said, the paint job you have already run confirms everything you need to know about the paint. Why wait the first three weeks to before getting the cases made?

That was the second option. Basically the one bubblebee suggested for some reason.

This is what I did:

Week 1: Paint the existing cases and make sure they're fine, order samples of the proper paint.
Week 2: Order the cases.
Week 3: Receive the proper paint, make samples with the existing cases (just to see how it looks). Order the proper paint for mass production.
Week 6: Receive the cases and the proper paint.
Week 7: Start painting.

Where you've not saved any time, or established anything, because you're having to do all these tests again with the "final" paint.

No, we don't HAVE to do those. Why should we? Physically, it's no different than the one we used. It's more scratch resistant but has the same thickness and opacity.
We just will do some more to see that the paint will look good and is scratch resistant enough. So only if the paint is not as good as expected, we will have some delay. But we'd have the same delay if we did it like you've written it down in this case.

So the order we did it only has possible speedups compared to the other way.

 

[pmprog]

That was the second option. Basically the one bubblebee suggested for some reason.

So yeah, it was me misunderstanding what I was reading. Thanks for clearing it up for me

 

[bubblebee]

You'd rather have waited a few more weeks just to find out what we now already know with the sample color used?

Once the 1000 Pyras are delivered, we should be at about -250k EUR.

What are you talking about ? It's me who complains about another process of painting and coating which take us additional time, it's me who talk about additional costs with your painting and coating. And yes as I read your rude answer, not the first time, I no longer have that unquestionably good feeling about your decisions and statements. And as a pre-orderer and over the years full supporter in our Pyra development I expect regarding my questions and now more than legitimate objections a more professional approach on your part. Your answer is simply disappointing.

You can not say on the basis of any paint that does not represent the final finish, that it will fit. Especially since the painting now adds an additional coating.. That's another process. Therefore, your current painted testcases have only very limited validity. And yes, I'm not convinced that the uncoated case in normal sunlight look as horrible as in your movie lighting.

 

[EvilDragon]

What are you talking about ? It's me who complains about another process of painting and coating which take us additional time, it's me who talk about additional costs with your painting and coating. And yes as I read your rude answers, not the first time, I no longer have that unquestionably good feeling about your decisions and statements. And as a pre-orderer and over the years full supporter in our Pyra development I expect regarding my questions and now more than legitimate objections a more professional approach on your part. Your answer is simply disappointing.

Then please let me know what exactly your question is. Because it seems I didn't understand it, but I also didn't understand why you would suggest I choose a way which would lead to even more delays.
At least, that's how I understood your suggestion.

Feel free to let me know how you would've handled it to solve it properly, I'm always happy to learn something new

I also don't know where I've become rude, I simply explained why your suggestion would cause more delays compared to how I decided to do it and that the issues are visible in every light.
If you think it's rude that I told you that your suggestions didn't make sense in my opinion, then that's okay, but otherwise, I can't really see where I was rude.
Just trying to explain things.

You can not say on the basis of any paint that does not represent the final finish, that it will fit. Especially since the painting now adds an additional coating.. That's another process.

Both paints, the sample one we used and the new one we'll receive (which is extremely scratch resistant) has a layer thickness of 0.03mm.
There is no additional coat, nothing that adds additional thickness.

So please let me know why they should behave differently, physically. Neither the company that paints over 100.000 plastic parts per day nor the color manufacturer do think that.

Therefore, your current painted testcases have only very limited validity.

No, it hasn't, since the thickness and opacity of both colors is the same.
If there's any other reason you can think of why this wouldn't validate the case, please let me know.

And yes, I'm not convinced that the uncoated case in normal sunlight look as horrible as in your movie lighting.

Let me know your address and I'll send you a case that you can confirm it yourself.
Though everyone else who has seen the case in real life said it looks bad.

 

[matzesu]

I would say: go for the painting: it’s needs some time to write this test image, so it’s takes anyway that long as it take,
Personally I can wait, it would be cool to have the Pyra as a Workpc on my Desk and as a EDC PC/Gaming Retro Handheld in my Pockets bevor 2020, but it’s not that necessary for my Life this year..

 

[pmprog]

I am a free speech absolutist and I treasure openness and tough love. However,

Let me stop you there then... You cannot be an absolutist and have a caveat, otherwise you are not an absolutist.

 

[Djoga'Ro]

Let me correct you there: "You cannot be an absolutist and have a caveat, otherwise you are not an absolutist could be an absolutist and have a caveat."

 

[EvilDragon]

Oh boy.

I never thought I would ever take a position against free speech but here we go: Can I get some feedback from the rest of the users on whether or not we should get Bubblebee banned?

While I can understand you, I'm all against banning here. I don't think Bubblebee means harm or wants to hurt anyone. There might be misunderstandings, might be a bit of a language barrier, etc.

You can simply put him on ignore and don't have to read his posts. And no worries, I am able to cope with stuff like that as well

 

[RZR]

Oh boy.

I never thought I would ever take a position against free speech but here we go: Can I get some feedback from the rest of the users on whether or not we should get Bubblebee banned?

I am a free speech absolutist and I treasure openness and tough love. However, in starting and running various businesses over the last 20 years, the one lesson that sticks with me is the need to recognize customers with severe mental disabilities, particularly those with narcisistic tendencies that make them want to ONLY see the world burn. Bubblebee has CLEARLY demonstrated an unwillingness to at minimum actually read posts as well as going out of their way to misconstrue obvious meaning and intent in order to inject poison into the conversation and start drama. For me, this is unacceptable behaviour in these forums.

I love this project and I want to see it through to completion and onwards to success. The project staff and volunteers have done nothing but a stellar job to move the project forward and overcome enormous challenges. I have seen NO ill will and mismanagement from anyone involved with the project and any person that takes away from their work I want to see removed from the boards or at least put on mute until they can demonstrate that they have the mental faculties and skill to see the situation from enough perspectives to make their contribution useful and moving forward.

Anyone else feel similarly about Bubblebees posts and interactions? Can we get him banned or at least muted for a while so the project staff are not distracted by this disturbed person?

I could be way off base my self, feel free to critique me.

Banned? Why?

Just grab a popcorn bucket, lean back and 'enjoy'.

I find it rather amusing to read people claiming haste when they are actually wasting ED's time.

They don't seem to realize he is the CPO not them, and he will do as (and how) he must to take the project to its end.

But hey, I am really impressed by how patient ED is. I am not, I tend to delegate the "customers with severe mental disabilities" . I guess he is more customer oriented...

 

[rSl]

i'm strongly for not banning anyone here, unless he/she insults another member personally (more than once).
we all have difficult times in reallife sometimes and so some interactions on this board may reflect this.
also, i cannot detect any rudeness from ed against you @bubblebee.
so please @bubblebee, have a good cup of tea and chill a little.
we are so near to see the light at the end of this loong tunnel called pyra development, please hold 'ya horses/nerves a little bit longer!
it's hard to stay positive for such a long time. personally, i try by not posting agressive things and spread love (likes) everywhere!
thats the only thing i can do at this stage of the project. i'm in with 330€ prepaid and a lot of love, as these kinds of projects are *only* possible with
a lot of goodwill and spirit.
peace!

 

[levi]

The type of color doesn't matter in that regards, as the final color used has the same thickness (0.03mm) and opacity, it just adds more scratch resistance and has a slightly different color.

The only thing I'd like to see confirmed not to happen is that the additional thickness doesn't make it harder than it need be to remove the screws from the holes at the bottom, as happened with my Pandora. Admittedly, if the paint is only 0.03mm thick it'd be quite hard to cause a problem, but this paint seems to require a primer and a top coat each of presumably 0.03mm thick and then if you paint both sides of the hole it could reduce the diameter by 0.12mm, which is 2.4% of a 5mm hole for example. That still doesn't sound like a big number, but presumably it wasn't on my Pandora either, but it still ended up in me drilling them out to remove them.

 

[theredbaron]

Oh boy.

I never thought I would ever take a position against free speech but here we go: Can I get some feedback from the rest of the users on whether or not we should get Bubblebee banned?

I am a free speech absolutist and I treasure openness and tough love. However, in starting and running various businesses over the last 20 years, the one lesson that sticks with me is the need to recognize customers with severe mental disabilities, particularly those with narcisistic tendencies that make them want to ONLY see the world burn. Bubblebee has CLEARLY demonstrated an unwillingness to at minimum actually read posts as well as going out of their way to misconstrue obvious meaning and intent in order to inject poison into the conversation and start drama. For me, this is unacceptable behaviour in these forums.

I love this project and I want to see it through to completion and onwards to success. The project staff and volunteers have done nothing but a stellar job to move the project forward and overcome enormous challenges. I have seen NO ill will and mismanagement from anyone involved with the project and any person that takes away from their work I want to see removed from the boards or at least put on mute until they can demonstrate that they have the mental faculties and skill to see the situation from enough perspectives to make their contribution useful and moving forward.

Anyone else feel similarly about Bubblebees posts and interactions? Can we get him banned or at least muted for a while so the project staff are not distracted by this disturbed person?

I could be way off base my self, feel free to critique me.

Let me start by saying I don't know. Honestly, I don't remember them at all, so no idea if they do this enough for me, but....

Free speech means you are allowed to say something without the government stopping you / punishing you. However, it doesn't mean that there is no consequences. At the very least, depending on what is said, people don't have to listen, they can ask you to leave, ban you from returning, etc. Just because this is an online forum doesn't matter.

If I walked into an Apple store and started interrupting every conversation talking about how shitty iphones are, that the macbooks are underpowered over priced, and still look like shit, what would happened? At least here in the USA, I would be banned the first time, no second chance, nothing. In fact, I would likely go to jail for "disturbing the peace". Not that this ever happened to me...

Free speech is government. That's it. No need to bring that into the conversation. The question is simply have they done enough "disturbing the peace" to warrant a ban? Honestly, I think that is only for ED to judge. If the aggravation is high for him, fine (I probably would have by now). However, if its just a slight annoyance, and he thinks he can take it, why not.


Actually, this is a perfect example of why limited shadow bans are awesome. A little setting that just blocks their post from being viewed. They see nothing wrong, but we don't see their post. Kind of a forced don't feed the trolls.

 

[rSl]

and one question to @EvilDragon about the different colours planned.
wouldn't it be a good thing to only produce one (possibly black) coloured cases at the beginning to not loose time when matching paint and case-base-colours with the
painting company and when assembling them at global components?

 

[pmprog]

Actually, this is a perfect example of why limited shadow bans are awesome. A little setting that just blocks their post from being viewed. They see nothing wrong, but we don't see their post. Kind of a forced don't feed the trolls.

I'd disagree with you here. If you are banned, you should know it, and you should be made fully aware of the reasons.
I don't see a problem with individuals using the ignore feature on other individuals though