Keymat Layout - the Final Poll!

[comradekingu]

As you can see, the key codes given by xev are different. The transformations that AFAIK occur are:

• Keyboard generates scan code
• Keyboard driver reads scan codes to generate event codes (as defined in input.h)
• X reads the keyboard device events, and maps them to key codes
• Key codes are interpreted using a layout into keysyms
• Application receives keysym and does whatever with it

You are giving me the results of the third and fourth phase. I'm asking for the second.

That doesnt change: (my keyboard is a "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard" if that makes any difference)

Spoiler

Event: time 1437248882.927193, type 4 (EV_MSC), code 4 (MSC_SCAN), value 3a


Event: time 1437248882.927193, type 1 (EV_KEY), code 58 (KEY_CAPSLOCK), value 0


Event: time 1437248882.927193, -------------- SYN_REPORT ------------


Event: time 1437248883.870916, type 4 (EV_MSC), code 4 (MSC_SCAN), value b8


Event: time 1437248883.870916, type 1 (EV_KEY), code 100 (KEY_RIGHTALT), value 1


Event: time 1437248883.870916, -------------- SYN_REPORT ------------


Event: time 1437248883.946328, type 4 (EV_MSC), code 4 (MSC_SCAN), value b8


Event: time 1437248883.946328, type 1 (EV_KEY), code 100 (KEY_RIGHTALT), value 0


Event: time 1437248883.946328, -------------- SYN_REPORT ------------


Event: time 1437248885.343464, type 4 (EV_MSC), code 4 (MSC_SCAN), value 4a


Event: time 1437248885.343464, type 1 (EV_KEY), code 74 (KEY_KPMINUS), value 1


Event: time 1437248885.343464, -------------- SYN_REPORT ------------


Event: time 1437248885.429384, type 4 (EV_MSC), code 4 (MSC_SCAN), value 4a


Event: time 1437248885.429384, type 1 (EV_KEY), code 74 (KEY_KPMINUS), value 0

 

[bzar]

That doesnt change: (my keyboard is a "AT Translated Set 2 keyboard" if that makes any difference)

So is mine. You're saying you didn't press caps lock, right alt (altgr) and keypad minus there? I wonder how the layouts make heads or tails about your keyboard if that's the case


EDIT:

About sticky modifiers:

"xkbset sticky -twokey -latchlock" makes modifiers sticky. No need to have this in layout.

If I understand correctly that affects all modifiers. Is there an easy way to make just L_SHIFT and L_META sticky, while leaving R_SHIFT and R_META unaffected?
-Neelix

See last example here

 

[_wb_]

Damn it guys. Stop with the new proposals in this thread. It is neither the time nor the place to do this.


Take the new proposals and brainstorming to the other threads, please. Choices and motivations only.

I'm not making new proposals or doing brainstorming. That stage is over now. I'm merely looking at the leading layouts and the reasons people give for liking them, and attempting to combine the best elements of the 2, 3 best layouts.

I suppose that is exactly what ED is doing or will do when the poll is over, so why not help with the process?

 

[Neelix]

As you've probably guessed by now I chose layout 7 as my preferred layout. Of the remaining layouts, 1 and 10 were the ones I liked best.

These are the things I like about layout 7 that it does differently from other layouts in the poll:

US keyboard shift layer pairs maintained for primary layer keys. (that is ,< .> '" and the number row symbols)

US keyboard Symbol pair matching between the bottom two rows of the Meta layer.

Insert and delete on the gaming buttons, Backspace on the main keyboard.

Single modifier (Meta) used to access the alternate symbol layer. (meta and super not conflated)

Max 2 of each modifier (one on the keyboard the other on the shoulders)

Escape on left side of keyboard (though I don't mind if it's on the Meta layer)

Dedicated number row

matches physical layout of the Pyra keyboard (layout 8 does not)

-Neelix

 

[Løra (Lolla)]

I must say, that all the layouts with the 'how-many-symbols-can-we-fit-on-one-button' thing going on, not only confuzzled me completely, but has honestly given me a headache too. Please make it stop .

 

[comradekingu]

That may be why there is a dualwide space doing nothing, to even it out, but then that is filled too... (?)

 

[_jr_]

I've voted for several layouts, too. My ideal keyboard would have only US QWERTY labeled (allowing some major remapping while still being mostly compatible with the labels), shifted number row and symbol pairs strictly en_US compatible, F-keys separate from numbers, very few modifiers on the main keyboard area, and few if any primary keys wasted on hardware control. There is no candidate in the poll with these features (though there were some more layouts like this proposed by B-Zar and _wb_), but 8 and 9 are still the preferred candidates here, because fewer labels is the most important quality to me. I prefer the single width space version of these, even if that looks weird (because the asymmetry normally expected is missing). If it is the goal to litter the keymat with lots of labels - which BTW is totally unusual and from my limited testing frightening to the casual user - then layouts 6 and 11 stand out because of their intelligent F key placement. But as long there isn't too much saber (un)design I can live with any layout. Thanks!


PS: if it is necessary to include international labels to appease Germany or whatever then I'd suggest to follow the language poll and not include romance language support since (not really surprising considering the customer base) these are only interesting to about 1 third of users.

 

[Saber]

Okay, I worked on these layouts today after having read every bit of this thread and integrated some of what I and others liked. They look pretty good to my eyes but we'll see how this all comes to fruition after this Monday.

There are two characteristic layouts here with two versions of each. The "a" version has brightness controls up top while the "b" version puts them under keyboard Meta + Dpad. They are identical otherwise. Not sure if "b" varieties of these layouts are possible but it's worth exploring for what else we can get out of it. 

With one keyboard Shift key:

9.0a http://i.imgur.com/jCC5czL.png

Editor here. 

9.0b: http://i.imgur.com/OqCUdcV.png

Editor here.

Spoiler

With two keyboard Shift keys(the right side Shift can be remapped if desired):

9.1a: http://i.imgur.com/lapBJNZ.png

Editor here.

9.1b: http://i.imgur.com/PMNkiGs.png

Editor here.

Spoiler

 

[pablocrossa]

After looking at all the keyboard layouts I (like many others) have trouble choosing one and imagining living with it; there are however two things I think the final keyboard should have:

• Sticky modifiers by default on the keyboard only.
  Seems to make sense on a device tailored to sentient beings without 2 tiny thumbs per hand...
• Can be used just as a non-sticky if two keys are pressed simultaneously (I have an N900 and it's great to just have it work like that).
• Can be disabled if someone dislikes it for some reason (any ideas why that would happen?).

[*]Either two shifts (with one on a trigger) or three shifts (with different key-codes for shoulder and keyboard area) with a driver that does not generate a "keydown" event if one keyboard shift is already pressed and only generates a "keyup" when both are released.

• This eliminates the possible discussed bugs with two keys that generate the same key-code.
• For development and sanity's sake two shifts seems like the right amount, with one on the trigger; if the keyboard shift is sticky all keys can be used without much trouble.
• Two shifts on the keyboard seem to take the space of another key that, on a layout of limited size, could be more useful for example as a dedicated symbol key.

As an afterthought it would be great if the Pyra shipped with an option to "Enable dead keys" in software; this allows keys like ´ to operate as they do on many non-english layouts and can let other language users type more letters than right now without remapping out of spec:

• Hit the dead key twice, it's like only hitting it once on the non-dead version.
• Use keys like ~ and you get the ability to type ñ without too much hassle.

Food for thought
Any more thoughts I get I will come back and post

 

[destraht]

I think that it is very unfortunate that there are 11 layouts in the final poll. If the lowest 6-7 of them were eliminated then it would give a much better impression of what people are willing to live with rather than their ideal layout. As I'm counting now 27% of the voters had their vote thrown away.

 

[destraht]

&nbsp;

Too much choices. Can we use this poll to narrow the list down and then have a second round?


Some layouts are quite similar so there is a problem misunderstanding of poll results if for example ED have different criteria for choosing the best layout than voters.

&nbsp;

I agree because having 11 choices gives people the freedom to pick their ideal layout but there are tons of permutations where a person might have loved a layout that only received 2.5% of the vote but absolutely hated one of the other top choices but was "ok" with another top choice. This poll doesn't accomplish enough for a final poll.

 

[Neelix]

Don't forget, this poll doesn't decide the final layout directly it only informs ED's choice. If you feel that the poll doesn't adequately communicate your preferences, just tell us (and ED) what aspects you liked about your preferred layouts.

-Neelix

 

[_wb_]

I think that it is very unfortunate that there are 11 layouts in the final poll. If the lowest 6-7 of them were eliminated then it would give a much better impression of what people are willing to live with rather than their ideal layout. As I'm counting now 27% of the voters had their vote thrown away.

You know that you can vote for more than one layout in this poll, right?

If among these 11 layouts, there are layouts you can live with and others you cannot live with, then it is probably a good idea to select all the layouts you can live with, instead of just your most preferred one.

 

[jadedpa]

It seems that typing overall would be easier if there were R and L shift keys, as in 5 and 10.

EDIT: D'oh! I didn't notice that all of the Pyra layouts kept the shoulder shift, making keyboard shift pretty much useless. My bad!

 

[_wb_]

It seems that typing overall would be easier if there were R and L shift keys, as in 5 and 10.

All layouts have L and R shifts. Some of them have 3 shifts though.

On a small keyboard with less keys than even a laptop keyboard, two shifts should be enough. On the Pandora I never use keyboard shift (nor keyboard ctrl), because shoulder button modifiers are much more efficient.

 

[comradekingu]

Typing is the most efficient with one shift, on the right, since its closer to the punctuation its used with. That would be layout 8.

And typing is easier for more people if its on the left, since that means regular typing for more people, since its more familiar and facilitates real buttons for international users.

Which would be this. Slightly less efficient, and less compatible languages, but you dont have to remember anything.

If you want to observe the US shift-pairs, which isn't to do with software compatibility, its still one shift.

Two shifts on keyboard when one can be sticky, on a keyboard that has no keys to spare, is a waste of one key. And it also adds a hack to allowing it to be on shoulders.

 

[mrpalmtop]

I voted for #5.

A lot of people who have purchased the Pandora don't realize that having two shift keys on the keyboard is very important to a lot of people who wouldn't purchase a Pandora. It's ludicrous imo to expect people to use gaming controls for their typing.

There are far more people who purchased a Psion Series 5, HP 200LX, or an HP Jornada than have purchased a Pandora. We should learn from all of these successful products that having two Shift keys on the keyboard is very important for adoption.

 

[comradekingu]

The jornada looks to be a 10 finger ordeal, and the only modern in terms of design and age. Allthough both that and the Psion have no printed F-keys.

What makes it stand out is that you can type something other than English on it. I'm unsure sticky shift was even a thing back in the 200LX days.

Edit: Turns out it was, and they even advertised it in the manual:

■ A typewriter keyboard layout with a "sticky" shift key — you don't
need to hold down [ Q ) while you press another key; you press it to
activate it and then press the other key. Shifted key definitions are
shown in orange on the keyboard.
With two thumbs sticky shift makes all the sense in the world, because you tie up 100% of the usable input (not counting shoulders) to use regular shift, that doesnt translate from a 105key.

Something that also doesnt translate is that numpad, having to reach over it to type makes little sense to me. I guess it works in a sense as badly as right hand desktop numpad in a largely right-handed world.

 i got it from this, since searching didnt work for me in the pdf, only on the search-indexing.

 

[Neelix]

A lot of people who have purchased the Pandora don't realize that having two shift keys on the keyboard is very important to a lot of people who wouldn't purchase a Pandora. It's ludicrous imo to expect people to use gaming controls for their typing.

Have you tried it?

Seriously... I never even considered it when I first got my Pandora, I just struggled along with the single shift on the keyboard. (Sometimes going so far as to use Capslock to enter single letters) The most I used the Shoulder shift for was dragging windows about on the desktop. Then one day _wb_ showed up and made a comment about how efficiently he could type on the Pandora by using the shift key on the shoulder button with his index finger while typing on the keyboard with his thumbs... My immediate reaction was "really? huh..." So I tried it out. It took me a couple of days to get used to it, but once I did I never looked back, and started wishing I had Fn on the shoulder buttons as well.

-Neelix

 

[Saber]

A lot of people who have purchased the Pandora don't realize that having two shift keys on the keyboard is very important to a lot of people who wouldn't purchase a Pandora. It's ludicrous imo to expect people to use gaming controls for their typing.

Have you tried it?


Seriously... I never even considered it when I first got my Pandora, I just struggled along with the single shift on the keyboard. (Sometimes going so far as to use Capslock to enter single letters) The most I used the Shoulder shift for was dragging windows about on the desktop. Then one day _wb_ showed up and made a comment about how efficiently he could type on the Pandora by using the shift key on the shoulder button with his index finger while typing on the keyboard with his thumbs... My immediate reaction was "really? huh..." So I tried it out. It took me a couple of days to get used to it, but once I did I never looked back, and started wishing I had Fn on the shoulder buttons as well.


-Neelix

Remember not everyone's fingers can reach those low corners so easily while thumb typing, and people have different "styles" when using keyboards. Essentially forcing all people to use the Shoulder button for basic text entry isn't so inviting.  :mellow:

As for using this sticky Shift business to excuse away only one keyboard Shift, some of us would like our keyboard Shift keys to behave like they normally do, where you hold it down and press another key, and not press the key, go make breakfast and walk the dog then come back later.