It's the keyboard layout.

[myNewUsername]

I would argue to leave out more of the international stuff.

 
Here is one where Spanish and Scandinavian are completely dropped, and also the non-essential German-keyboard stuff (° § µ) :

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/3933a99c61eb5c637ea1c43f353020d0

7 letter keys without printed metasymbols. Not bad =) The real problem i think with many printed international symbols is the effort ot takes to locate the symbols I acually use. As one norwegian, It is worth having to map æøå somewhere myself.

 

[lennaick]

I can confirm what Kev2442 sayed.

French AZERTY is the very bad keyboard for french writing… For good writing and confort the BÉPO layout is way better but not very common ATM.

 

[_wb_]

I can confirm what Kev2442 sayed.


French AZERTY is the very bad keyboard for french writing… For good writing and confort the BÉPO layout is way better but not very common ATM.

Interesting, that BÉPO layout!


They have good ideas for dead diacritics, too: http://bepo.fr/wiki/Touches_mortes


In particular, dead_greek is a pretty good idea, I like that a lot!


αβδεφγηιθκλμνοπχρστυωξψζ


ΑΒΔΕΦΓΗΙΘΚΛΜΝΟΠΧΡΣΤΥΩΞΨΖ

Also looks like they independently got the same idea as me to let dead circumflex/caron act as dead superscript/subscript.

I like how they use dead tilde for ≃≲≳ too.

 

[Kev2442]

I can confirm what Kev2442 sayed.

French AZERTY is the very bad keyboard for french writing… For good writing and confort the BÉPO layout is way better but not very common ATM.

Thanks a lot, I didn't know of this layout. Will sure become my next keyboard, as soon as my dirt-cheap Logitech fails. If it ever does.

Well then, as we can't use a full QWERTY keyboard, why not give the Pyra a Dvorak-inspired layout ?

 

[alanjf]

I don't like the idea of removing the capital versions of those letters, that's a recipe for frustration when someone does want to use them, for whatever reason.   À in particular, has cropped up a fair bit in my online french lessons, usually as the first word in a sentence. (e.g. "À Rome, fais comme les Romains.")


- Neelix

If you would try to type ÉÈÀÇÙ that way on a French keyboard, you would get 2790%

And they don't have an easy way to get the capitals, because they don't have a dead grave and dead acute, so all you can do is Compose.

I think I may be missing something here. I thought getting capitals is what the Shift and Caps-Lock keys were for? If it doesn't then that would be some rather bizarre keyboard behavior.

I too don't understand the statement "And they don't have an easy way to get the capitals", as any international keyboard or mapping that I've used, letters with diacritics behave the same way as the base 26 letters in terms of Shift and Caps-Lock, in regards to lower and upper casing. Why is this suddenly different?

Is there really a reason one cannot use shift to get upper-case letters for those upeprcase French letters? I don't recall it being a problem a couple years ago when I was staying in France for a few months. That is, I can distinctly recall using shift to get upper case accented French letters.

Could someone please ellaborate as to what the problem actaully is?

 

[comradekingu]

Its suddenly different because french uses too many letters to make that happen in the ordinary way. Italian has sort of the same issue,

because they have two diactriced letters on the same key.

Not that they shouldnt be able to do that, but for interlingual purposes, ive tried to do away with any such hacks. One modifier to do special language,

+1 modifier to do big letters special language.

Unfortunately we have not that many keys, so the least hacky way i found to do it was to use start and start+select. Its not ideal, but it has way less

caveats than putting ctrl on select and alt on start.

 

[_wb_]

Proposal "_wb_ WGS v1":

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/9e2466ac9e34c76b94c5b7cff1b77d44

The World Glyph Set is a subset of Unicode used as a guideline for font designers. It is a superset of MES-1 (the Multilingual European Subset #1) and it roughly corresponds to WGL4 (Windows Glyph List 4). I think this is a good reference point when evaluating multilingual coverage.

Here is a WGS coverage sheet for the above proposal: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ph2QGB_J0zs0-u3H9IkWbFTpwGe-d48zQ0LsxmhizNs/edit?usp=sharing

Instead of µ, the Meta key at M is now "dead Greek". To get µ you would press Meta-M M, so it's still easy to type the µ symbol. But all the other Greek letters are there as well. E.g. Meta-M P would give you π (or Π if you do Meta-M Shift-P), Meta-M W gives Ω ω, Meta-M S gives Σ σ, Meta-M D gives Δ δ, and so on.

This "dead Greek" feature is not so much intended for Greek people (although they could use it as well, I guess), but it's mostly because so many Greek symbols are used in science and mathematics, and since this is a geeky niche device, I think people might like that. At least I do. (Also it seems fitting for a device with a Greek mythology name)

 

[codifies]

Isn't there a superfluous "r" in the label for Meta-M ? : o )

but seriously having the Meta on the Left and symbols on the right makes it actually usable for me (I find it painful to use shoulder buttons and keys at the same time) despite the large number of symbols its not over cluttered and symbols do seem fairly easy to find.

Its may well have take a whole bunch of iterations, but each one has refined your ideas and I think its ened up with a really useful keyboard without other uses being too compromised.

 

[_wb_]

Isn't there a superfluous "r" in the label for Meta-M ? : o )

Hrm, I dunno, a "dead geek" key sounds a bit sinister

 

[_wb_]

Here is proposal "_wb_ WGS v2": http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/64d0e09a7874925bbf82e64a3ea56946

WGS/MES-1 coverage chart: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ph2QGB_J0zs0-u3H9IkWbFTpwGe-d48zQ0LsxmhizNs/edit?usp=sharing

Taking inspiration from the famous Space-cadet keyboard, the German NEO-layout, and the French BÉPO-layout, there are now three "special" dead keys:

• GREEK: as before, produces all letters of the Greek alphabet (very useful in science and math); moved it to Meta+H
• ¤ (CURRENCY): instead of £ at Shift+€, there is now a BÉPO-style "dead currency", which can be used to produce more or less all the currency symbols of the world: ฿¢₫€ƒ₲₴﷼₭£₥₦௹₰₢₪৳元₩¥ ₳₱₡₯₠₣៛₤ℳ₦૱₧₨$₮圓円
• MATH at Meta+M: this one can be used to produce mathematical symbols; we can sort out exactly which ones should be included later (it is just a matter of software), but I would include at least these: ∡⊂⊆⊊∂∈∫ℓℵ°∏√∑× ∆∇ ≥ ≤ ‰∅∞∝ − ∕ ÷⊕⊗ ≡≈ ∀∃ ℂℍℕℙℚℝℤ ∩⋂∪⋃ ↔⇔ →⇒ ↦⊧ ⊤⊥ ¬∨∧  (suggestions for where to map them are in the coverage chart)
  

I also re-introduced dead stroke ◌̸ at Meta+X, which can also be used as dead macron (since vowels don't normally get strokes except for Ø which is already available directly). This gives ĐĦŁŦđħłŧ ≠ and ĀĒĪŌŪāēīōū, and it could also be used in conjunction with MATH symbols to produce negated mathematical symbols:  ∉ ≢⊈⊭∄ etc.

I removed the explicit ¬ and ° since they are available via MATH (e.g. at MATH+! for "logical not" and MATH+o for "degree symbol").

I also removed the explicit Èè to make some room for the new stuff; frequency tables show that è is not that important for French (roughly the same as ê), so having to use dead grave for it is not a big deal, I think.

This would be a very cool handheld multilingual scientific keyboard. It would be able to produce pretty much all Unicode symbols that are useful in the Western world, in at most two thumb strokes per symbol.

 

[Saber]

Another Revision(although I'm still fond of 3.0).   

• { } and [ ] pairs have good locations, as well as =.
• Reluctantly, ? could move down to the X key again, like on Pandora, so = - + _ could sashay to the left, as was contemplated in the first post. 
• The Acute might be the only diacritic dead key(though I prefer the three I have included for utility's sake). 

Languages this layout is proficient at, without and with remapping(shown here in bold):

Dutch: á, é, ó, ú, ë, ï, and very rarely used â and é.

Estonian: ä, ö, ü, õ, š, ž.

Finnish: å, ä, ö, and very rarely used š and ž.

French: é, à, è, ù, â, ê, î, ô, û, ë, ï, ü, ç, and very rarely used ñ and ÿ.

German: ä, ö, ü, ß.

Hungarian: á, é, í, ó, ú, ö, ü, ő, ű.

Italian: à, è, é, ì, í, î, ò, ó, ù, ú.

Norwegian: é, è, ê, ó, ò, â, ô, å, æ, ø.

Polish: ć, ń, ó, ś, ź, ł, ż, ą, ę          

Portuguese: á, â, ã, à, é, ê, í, ó, ô, õ, ú.

Spanish: á, é, í, ó, ú, ñ.

Swedish: å, ä, ö.

Turkish: â, î, û, ö, ü, ç, ğ, I, İ, ş.

 

[_wb_]

Languages this layout is proficient at, without and with remapping(shown here in bold):

Dutch: á, é, ó, ú, ë, ï, and very rarely used â and é.

Estonian: ä, ö, ü, õ, š, ž.

Finnish: å, ä, ö, and very rarely used š and ž.

French: é, à, è, ù, â, ê, î, ô, û, ë, ï, ü, ç, and very rarely used ñ and ÿ.

German: ä, ö, ü, ß.

Hungarian: á, é, í, ó, ú, ö, ü, ő, ű.

Italian: à, è, é, ì, í, î, ò, ó, ù, ú.

Norwegian: é, è, ê, ó, ò, â, ô, å, æ, ø.

Polish: ć, ń, ó, ś, ź, ł, ż, ą, ę          

Portuguese: á, â, ã, à, é, ê, í, ó, ô, õ, ú.

Spanish: á, é, í, ó, ú, ñ.

Swedish: å, ä, ö.

Turkish: â, î, û, ö, ü, ç, ğ, I, İ, ş.

So basically, for any language other than English, German and Italian, you need to remap and remember the remapping.

 

[ible]

overall i like it.  i'm slightly put off by the spot for _, since it is quite far from the thumb's general locations, but it's nice that it's accessible by both.  (it's a very common coding symbol.)

(of course, i still like my own version with two shifts better, though I hope that we have only one keyboard shift.  but we'll see...)

 

[Saber]

Languages this layout is proficient at, without and with remapping(shown here in bold):

Dutch: á, é, ó, ú, ë, ï, and very rarely used â and é.

Estonian: ä, ö, ü, õ, š, ž.

Finnish: å, ä, ö, and very rarely used š and ž.

French: é, à, è, ù, â, ê, î, ô, û, ë, ï, ü, ç, and very rarely used ñ and ÿ.

German: ä, ö, ü, ß.

Hungarian: á, é, í, ó, ú, ö, ü, ő, ű.

Italian: à, è, é, ì, í, î, ò, ó, ù, ú.

Norwegian: é, è, ê, ó, ò, â, ô, å, æ, ø.

Polish: ć, ń, ó, ś, ź, ł, ż, ą, ę          

Portuguese: á, â, ã, à, é, ê, í, ó, ô, õ, ú.

Spanish: á, é, í, ó, ú, ñ.

Swedish: å, ä, ö.

Turkish: â, î, û, ö, ü, ç, ğ, I, İ, ş.

So basically, for any language other than English, German and Italian, you need to remap and remember the remapping.

That's correct. If I were Swedish I'd have to remember å was placed by moi on Fn + L. 

I thought it best not to stockpile too many things into the layout since nearly all of us will only need a handful of them at any given time.

overall i like it.  i'm slightly put off by the spot for _, since it is quite far from the thumb's general locations, but it's nice that it's accessible by both.  (it's a very common coding symbol.)

(of course, i still like my own version with two shifts better, though I hope that we have only one keyboard shift.  but we'll see...)

Thanks ible. Underscore isn't too far from the thumbs but we could move it to Fn + V if we need to(or move ? down to X as I suggested).

 

[Saber]

Here's v3.1b.

Should also satisfy that "balanced between coding and text entry" thing.

 

[_wb_]

I really think three shifts is a bad idea, even on a full-size keyboard, but especially on one that is short on keys.

Also I don't like a German-centric layout. For me, it should be either plain ASCII, or really multilingual, but not "ASCII + German".

 

[_wb_]

Here is proposal "_wb_ WGS v2": http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/64d0e09a7874925bbf82e64a3ea56946

WGS/MES-1 coverage chart: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ph2QGB_J0zs0-u3H9IkWbFTpwGe-d48zQ0LsxmhizNs/edit?usp=sharing

Taking inspiration from the famous Space-cadet keyboard, the German NEO-layout, and the French BÉPO-layout, there are now three "special" dead keys:

• GREEK: as before, produces all letters of the Greek alphabet (very useful in science and math); moved it to Meta+H
• ¤ (CURRENCY): instead of £ at Shift+€, there is now a BÉPO-style "dead currency", which can be used to produce more or less all the currency symbols of the world: ฿¢₫€ƒ₲₴﷼₭£₥₦௹₰₢₪৳元₩¥ ₳₱₡₯₠₣៛₤ℳ₦૱₧₨$₮圓円
• MATH at Meta+M: this one can be used to produce mathematical symbols; we can sort out exactly which ones should be included later (it is just a matter of software), but I would include at least these: ∡⊂⊆⊊∂∈∫ℓℵ°∏√∑× ∆∇ ≥ ≤ ‰∅∞∝ − ∕ ÷⊕⊗ ≡≈ ∀∃ ℂℍℕℙℚℝℤ ∩⋂∪⋃ ↔⇔ →⇒ ↦⊧ ⊤⊥ ¬∨∧  (suggestions for where to map them are in the coverage chart)
  

I also re-introduced dead stroke ◌̸ at Meta+X, which can also be used as dead macron (since vowels don't normally get strokes except for Ø which is already available directly). This gives ĐĦŁŦđħłŧ ≠ and ĀĒĪŌŪāēīōū, and it could also be used in conjunction with MATH symbols to produce negated mathematical symbols:  ∉ ≢⊈⊭∄ etc.

I removed the explicit ¬ and ° since they are available via MATH (e.g. at MATH+! for "logical not" and MATH+o for "degree symbol").

I also removed the explicit Èè to make some room for the new stuff; frequency tables show that è is not that important for French (roughly the same as ê), so having to use dead grave for it is not a big deal, I think.

This would be a very cool handheld multilingual scientific keyboard. It would be able to produce pretty much all Unicode symbols that are useful in the Western world, in at most two thumb strokes per symbol.

So, what do you guys think about this?

 

[comradekingu]

I think there are little known elements taken from some little known layouts, forgetting efficiency and clarity.

The combination of doing neither means I don't know how to use it, and it makes me feel as I have dyslexia.

There looks to be a severe limitation of keys, as if the functional layout never had anything to do with the actual implementation.

 

[Urben]

So, what do you guys think about this?

I must say I like your 2-labels-per-key layouts way more. I also lost track why you came to this kind of concepts.

 

[Saber]

I really think three shifts is a bad idea, even on a full-size keyboard, but especially on one that is short on keys.

Also I don't like a German-centric layout. For me, it should be either plain ASCII, or really multilingual, but not "ASCII + German".

There are two shift keys. One happens to be repeated(with a different keycode but identical keysym, maybe) on the shoulder button. As for being short on keys, this inevitably occurs because these symbols { [ ] } \ | ; : ' " < > , . / ? which should've had Fn/Meta level priority first, but do not, over less important signs like € and ¿. It's not the keys we are short on, it's the capacity.