It's the keyboard layout.

[comradekingu]

Its suddenly different because french uses too many letters to make that happen in the ordinary way. Italian has sort of the same issue,

because they have two diactriced letters on the same key.

Not that they shouldnt be able to do that, but for interlingual purposes, ive tried to do away with any such hacks. One modifier to do special language,

+1 modifier to do big letters special language.

Unfortunately we have not that many keys, so the least hacky way i found to do it was to use start and start+select. Its not ideal, but it has way less

caveats than putting ctrl on select and alt on start.

 

[_wb_]

Proposal "_wb_ WGS v1":

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/9e2466ac9e34c76b94c5b7cff1b77d44

The World Glyph Set is a subset of Unicode used as a guideline for font designers. It is a superset of MES-1 (the Multilingual European Subset #1) and it roughly corresponds to WGL4 (Windows Glyph List 4). I think this is a good reference point when evaluating multilingual coverage.

Here is a WGS coverage sheet for the above proposal: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ph2QGB_J0zs0-u3H9IkWbFTpwGe-d48zQ0LsxmhizNs/edit?usp=sharing

Instead of µ, the Meta key at M is now "dead Greek". To get µ you would press Meta-M M, so it's still easy to type the µ symbol. But all the other Greek letters are there as well. E.g. Meta-M P would give you π (or Π if you do Meta-M Shift-P), Meta-M W gives Ω ω, Meta-M S gives Σ σ, Meta-M D gives Δ δ, and so on.

This "dead Greek" feature is not so much intended for Greek people (although they could use it as well, I guess), but it's mostly because so many Greek symbols are used in science and mathematics, and since this is a geeky niche device, I think people might like that. At least I do. (Also it seems fitting for a device with a Greek mythology name)

 

[codifies]

Isn't there a superfluous "r" in the label for Meta-M ? : o )

but seriously having the Meta on the Left and symbols on the right makes it actually usable for me (I find it painful to use shoulder buttons and keys at the same time) despite the large number of symbols its not over cluttered and symbols do seem fairly easy to find.

Its may well have take a whole bunch of iterations, but each one has refined your ideas and I think its ened up with a really useful keyboard without other uses being too compromised.

 

[_wb_]

Isn't there a superfluous "r" in the label for Meta-M ? : o )

Hrm, I dunno, a "dead geek" key sounds a bit sinister

 

[_wb_]

Here is proposal "_wb_ WGS v2": http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/64d0e09a7874925bbf82e64a3ea56946

WGS/MES-1 coverage chart: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ph2QGB_J0zs0-u3H9IkWbFTpwGe-d48zQ0LsxmhizNs/edit?usp=sharing

Taking inspiration from the famous Space-cadet keyboard, the German NEO-layout, and the French BÉPO-layout, there are now three "special" dead keys:

• GREEK: as before, produces all letters of the Greek alphabet (very useful in science and math); moved it to Meta+H
• ¤ (CURRENCY): instead of £ at Shift+€, there is now a BÉPO-style "dead currency", which can be used to produce more or less all the currency symbols of the world: ฿¢₫€ƒ₲₴﷼₭£₥₦௹₰₢₪৳元₩¥ ₳₱₡₯₠₣៛₤ℳ₦૱₧₨$₮圓円
• MATH at Meta+M: this one can be used to produce mathematical symbols; we can sort out exactly which ones should be included later (it is just a matter of software), but I would include at least these: ∡⊂⊆⊊∂∈∫ℓℵ°∏√∑× ∆∇ ≥ ≤ ‰∅∞∝ − ∕ ÷⊕⊗ ≡≈ ∀∃ ℂℍℕℙℚℝℤ ∩⋂∪⋃ ↔⇔ →⇒ ↦⊧ ⊤⊥ ¬∨∧  (suggestions for where to map them are in the coverage chart)
  

I also re-introduced dead stroke ◌̸ at Meta+X, which can also be used as dead macron (since vowels don't normally get strokes except for Ø which is already available directly). This gives ĐĦŁŦđħłŧ ≠ and ĀĒĪŌŪāēīōū, and it could also be used in conjunction with MATH symbols to produce negated mathematical symbols:  ∉ ≢⊈⊭∄ etc.

I removed the explicit ¬ and ° since they are available via MATH (e.g. at MATH+! for "logical not" and MATH+o for "degree symbol").

I also removed the explicit Èè to make some room for the new stuff; frequency tables show that è is not that important for French (roughly the same as ê), so having to use dead grave for it is not a big deal, I think.

This would be a very cool handheld multilingual scientific keyboard. It would be able to produce pretty much all Unicode symbols that are useful in the Western world, in at most two thumb strokes per symbol.

 

[Saber]

Another Revision(although I'm still fond of 3.0).   

• { } and [ ] pairs have good locations, as well as =.
• Reluctantly, ? could move down to the X key again, like on Pandora, so = - + _ could sashay to the left, as was contemplated in the first post. 
• The Acute might be the only diacritic dead key(though I prefer the three I have included for utility's sake). 

Languages this layout is proficient at, without and with remapping(shown here in bold):

Dutch: á, é, ó, ú, ë, ï, and very rarely used â and é.

Estonian: ä, ö, ü, õ, š, ž.

Finnish: å, ä, ö, and very rarely used š and ž.

French: é, à, è, ù, â, ê, î, ô, û, ë, ï, ü, ç, and very rarely used ñ and ÿ.

German: ä, ö, ü, ß.

Hungarian: á, é, í, ó, ú, ö, ü, ő, ű.

Italian: à, è, é, ì, í, î, ò, ó, ù, ú.

Norwegian: é, è, ê, ó, ò, â, ô, å, æ, ø.

Polish: ć, ń, ó, ś, ź, ł, ż, ą, ę          

Portuguese: á, â, ã, à, é, ê, í, ó, ô, õ, ú.

Spanish: á, é, í, ó, ú, ñ.

Swedish: å, ä, ö.

Turkish: â, î, û, ö, ü, ç, ğ, I, İ, ş.

 

[_wb_]

Languages this layout is proficient at, without and with remapping(shown here in bold):

Dutch: á, é, ó, ú, ë, ï, and very rarely used â and é.

Estonian: ä, ö, ü, õ, š, ž.

Finnish: å, ä, ö, and very rarely used š and ž.

French: é, à, è, ù, â, ê, î, ô, û, ë, ï, ü, ç, and very rarely used ñ and ÿ.

German: ä, ö, ü, ß.

Hungarian: á, é, í, ó, ú, ö, ü, ő, ű.

Italian: à, è, é, ì, í, î, ò, ó, ù, ú.

Norwegian: é, è, ê, ó, ò, â, ô, å, æ, ø.

Polish: ć, ń, ó, ś, ź, ł, ż, ą, ę          

Portuguese: á, â, ã, à, é, ê, í, ó, ô, õ, ú.

Spanish: á, é, í, ó, ú, ñ.

Swedish: å, ä, ö.

Turkish: â, î, û, ö, ü, ç, ğ, I, İ, ş.

So basically, for any language other than English, German and Italian, you need to remap and remember the remapping.

 

[ible]

overall i like it.  i'm slightly put off by the spot for _, since it is quite far from the thumb's general locations, but it's nice that it's accessible by both.  (it's a very common coding symbol.)

(of course, i still like my own version with two shifts better, though I hope that we have only one keyboard shift.  but we'll see...)

 

[Saber]

Languages this layout is proficient at, without and with remapping(shown here in bold):

Dutch: á, é, ó, ú, ë, ï, and very rarely used â and é.

Estonian: ä, ö, ü, õ, š, ž.

Finnish: å, ä, ö, and very rarely used š and ž.

French: é, à, è, ù, â, ê, î, ô, û, ë, ï, ü, ç, and very rarely used ñ and ÿ.

German: ä, ö, ü, ß.

Hungarian: á, é, í, ó, ú, ö, ü, ő, ű.

Italian: à, è, é, ì, í, î, ò, ó, ù, ú.

Norwegian: é, è, ê, ó, ò, â, ô, å, æ, ø.

Polish: ć, ń, ó, ś, ź, ł, ż, ą, ę          

Portuguese: á, â, ã, à, é, ê, í, ó, ô, õ, ú.

Spanish: á, é, í, ó, ú, ñ.

Swedish: å, ä, ö.

Turkish: â, î, û, ö, ü, ç, ğ, I, İ, ş.

So basically, for any language other than English, German and Italian, you need to remap and remember the remapping.

That's correct. If I were Swedish I'd have to remember å was placed by moi on Fn + L. 

I thought it best not to stockpile too many things into the layout since nearly all of us will only need a handful of them at any given time.

overall i like it.  i'm slightly put off by the spot for _, since it is quite far from the thumb's general locations, but it's nice that it's accessible by both.  (it's a very common coding symbol.)

(of course, i still like my own version with two shifts better, though I hope that we have only one keyboard shift.  but we'll see...)

Thanks ible. Underscore isn't too far from the thumbs but we could move it to Fn + V if we need to(or move ? down to X as I suggested).

 

[Saber]

Here's v3.1b.

Should also satisfy that "balanced between coding and text entry" thing.

 

[_wb_]

I really think three shifts is a bad idea, even on a full-size keyboard, but especially on one that is short on keys.

Also I don't like a German-centric layout. For me, it should be either plain ASCII, or really multilingual, but not "ASCII + German".

 

[_wb_]

Here is proposal "_wb_ WGS v2": http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/64d0e09a7874925bbf82e64a3ea56946

WGS/MES-1 coverage chart: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ph2QGB_J0zs0-u3H9IkWbFTpwGe-d48zQ0LsxmhizNs/edit?usp=sharing

Taking inspiration from the famous Space-cadet keyboard, the German NEO-layout, and the French BÉPO-layout, there are now three "special" dead keys:

• GREEK: as before, produces all letters of the Greek alphabet (very useful in science and math); moved it to Meta+H
• ¤ (CURRENCY): instead of £ at Shift+€, there is now a BÉPO-style "dead currency", which can be used to produce more or less all the currency symbols of the world: ฿¢₫€ƒ₲₴﷼₭£₥₦௹₰₢₪৳元₩¥ ₳₱₡₯₠₣៛₤ℳ₦૱₧₨$₮圓円
• MATH at Meta+M: this one can be used to produce mathematical symbols; we can sort out exactly which ones should be included later (it is just a matter of software), but I would include at least these: ∡⊂⊆⊊∂∈∫ℓℵ°∏√∑× ∆∇ ≥ ≤ ‰∅∞∝ − ∕ ÷⊕⊗ ≡≈ ∀∃ ℂℍℕℙℚℝℤ ∩⋂∪⋃ ↔⇔ →⇒ ↦⊧ ⊤⊥ ¬∨∧  (suggestions for where to map them are in the coverage chart)
  

I also re-introduced dead stroke ◌̸ at Meta+X, which can also be used as dead macron (since vowels don't normally get strokes except for Ø which is already available directly). This gives ĐĦŁŦđħłŧ ≠ and ĀĒĪŌŪāēīōū, and it could also be used in conjunction with MATH symbols to produce negated mathematical symbols:  ∉ ≢⊈⊭∄ etc.

I removed the explicit ¬ and ° since they are available via MATH (e.g. at MATH+! for "logical not" and MATH+o for "degree symbol").

I also removed the explicit Èè to make some room for the new stuff; frequency tables show that è is not that important for French (roughly the same as ê), so having to use dead grave for it is not a big deal, I think.

This would be a very cool handheld multilingual scientific keyboard. It would be able to produce pretty much all Unicode symbols that are useful in the Western world, in at most two thumb strokes per symbol.

So, what do you guys think about this?

 

[comradekingu]

I think there are little known elements taken from some little known layouts, forgetting efficiency and clarity.

The combination of doing neither means I don't know how to use it, and it makes me feel as I have dyslexia.

There looks to be a severe limitation of keys, as if the functional layout never had anything to do with the actual implementation.

 

[Urben]

So, what do you guys think about this?

I must say I like your 2-labels-per-key layouts way more. I also lost track why you came to this kind of concepts.

 

[Saber]

I really think three shifts is a bad idea, even on a full-size keyboard, but especially on one that is short on keys.

Also I don't like a German-centric layout. For me, it should be either plain ASCII, or really multilingual, but not "ASCII + German".

There are two shift keys. One happens to be repeated(with a different keycode but identical keysym, maybe) on the shoulder button. As for being short on keys, this inevitably occurs because these symbols { [ ] } \ | ; : ' " < > , . / ? which should've had Fn/Meta level priority first, but do not, over less important signs like € and ¿. It's not the keys we are short on, it's the capacity.  

 

[codifies]

I think there are little known elements taken from some little known layouts, forgetting efficiency and clarity.

The combination of doing neither means I don't know how to use it, and it makes me feel as I have dyslexia.

There looks to be a severe limitation of keys, as if the functional layout never had anything to do with the actual implementation.

As someone who actually is Dyslexic - You couldn't be more wrong... spacial location of *individual* symbols and even the ease of visualizing multiple objects interrelations while coding are very different from the issues you think Dyslexic causes.

 

[ible]

@Saber:  I like your 3.1b layout, and could definitely live with it.  for some reason, i'd prefer the LED buttons on the right hand side, but that's not a big deal.

i don't think it's bad that it's "German-centric", since German is the next highest language in the language poll after English.

i still think it's a bit "left weighted", since all your punctuation and symbols are over on the left.  I like how mine moves them around a bit, though arguably it's easier to see where things are on yours.

maybe ED can chime back into the discussion, to let us know if three shifts are a full constraint, among other things.  I have a feeling he's blocked us all, so he only sees a handful of replies on this thread

 

[comradekingu]

I have this thing where most things i see are ugly. Things bother me. Very seldomly i see things that people put thought into. It is a form of communication, a breath of fresh air, in an otherwise chaotic world. It is timeless too.

In my head the location on the key should be 1 2 and 3, with one key (press) corresponding to 1, another (shift+) for 2, and a third (altgr+) for 3. It boggles my mind even more when things are moved out of the group they belong to. Yes, its a comparitivly easy change, but it adds noise. When position changes too, and there is no seperation between different kinds of buttons, I activly want to get away from it. I want standard unix philosophy.

https://ctrlaltdesign.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/anatomny-of-a-mac-keyboard.gif has some provisions that make sense of what a normal keyboard is. Language modifiers arent letters, nor are they dedicated keys, etc.

Too much noise causes me to lose focus. I am looking for an overview that isnt there. Even if i know it isnt. Instead of being simple, its a whole slew of issues, which to my mind are questionable things. I didnt mean actual dyslexia, but an issue that puts me as a onlooker in a different position than wbs understanding.

 

[_wb_]

So, what do you guys think about this?

I must say I like your 2-labels-per-key layouts way more. I also lost track why you came to this kind of concepts.

You may be right. I may have been listening a bit too much to the "DOSBox crowd".

Here is another 2-labels-per-key layout, with all my latest ideas integrated:

_wb_ WGS v3 "VÄBÈNÉ": http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/00237d3f2714fbc70a1d75814a1e1575

WGS / MES-1 coverage chart: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17JL4AoLYL6DqLZbZHTfHlsxYVEkLtsDcUPuV8ZwPv94/edit?usp=sharing

Features:

• all ASCII symbols behind at most one modifier
• ergonomics: all the commonly used ASCII symbols that are behind Meta (- + = : ; ' ") are on the opposite side of the Meta key; slash (/) is a Meta-mash combo
• "visual muscle memory": ASCII symbols are close to their US-QWERTY location or at least at the correct row; shift pairs are split up into two keys but kept next to one another
• æsthetics: only two symbols per key, so it looks clean and not too cluttered
• perfectly supports German: Üü Öö Ää ẞß are labeled
• supports French very well: Éé Àà Èè are labeled (the most important extra letters used in French, frequency above 0.25%, cf. Letter frequency tables), all the other letters needed for French (Êê Çç Ùù Ââ Îî Ôô Ëë Ïï) are available using dead diacritics, except Œœ which is an easy-to-remember Compose sequence (Compose OE)
• Supports Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Dutch and many other European languages via dead diacritics: Meta+` for grave (ìòù), Meta+~ for tilde (ãĩñõũ), Meta+< for caron/breve/subscript (čšžďěľť ğăŭ ₁₂₃), Meta+> for circumflex/superscript (âêîôû ĉĝĥĵŝŵŷ ¹²³), Meta+, for cedilla/ogonek (çķļņŗşţ ąęįų), Meta+. for dot/ring (ċėġıż åů), Shift+' for acute (áéíóúý ćńśźĺŕź), Shift+" for umlaut/Hungarumlaut (äëïÿ őű), Shift+- for macron (āēīōū), Shift+/ for stroke (đħøłŧ). The keys that have "magic dead diacritic power" are labeled with the symbol ◌. Most of the dead diacritics are Shift+Meta combos with symbols on the right hand side, which should be easy to do even without using the shoulder buttons.
• Scandinavian languages will probably want to remap ÜÖÄ to the cluster they're used to (ÅÖÄ for Swedish and Finnish, ÅÆØ for Danish, ÅØÆ for Norwegian). All other European languages are fully covered without having to remap anything at all!
  
• Currency symbol ¤, which is user-configurable: either it directly produces some symbol (e.g. € or ₤), or it becomes a "dead currency" key which can be used to produce all the currency symbols of the world (฿¢₫€ƒ₲₴﷼₭£₥₦௹₰₢₪৳元₩¥ ₳₱₡₯₠₣៛₤ℳ₦૱₧₨$₮圓円)
• GREEK: at Meta+G, there's a "dead greek" key which can be used to easily produce all the letters of the Greek alphabet (αβςδεφγηιθκλμνοπχρστυωξψζ ΑΒΔΕΦΓΗΙΘΚΛΜΝΟΠΧΡΣΤΥΩΞΨΖ)
• MATH: at Meta+M, there's a "dead math" key, which can be used to produce lots of mathematical symbols in just two thumb presses. This allows you to easily type things like this:  ∀x ∈ ℕ  ∃y ∈ ℚ : y > 0 ∧ xy ≤ π  or this  f : ℝ×ℝ → ℂ : (a,b) ↦ a+bi  or this  X ⊆ (Y ∪ Z)  ⇎  (X ⊆ Y) ∨ (X ⊆ Z). Perfect for making some quick slides or scientific notes on the road! (of course you would use LaTeX for the real work, or some kind of formula editor, but for some quick stuff, this would be just perfect — especially compared to the "Insert Special Symbol" method!)

The dotted circles (◌) could be dropped if people are offended by them, but I think they help a lot to visualize and remember the diacritics. Note that the dead diacritics are in this proposal all at the same spot as the standard Compose sequence symbols for the corresponding accents (` for grave, ~ for tilde, ' for acute, " for umlaut, , for cedilla, . for dot, / for stroke, - for macron, < for caron, > for circumflex), so even if you don't want to use the two-thumb press shorthand (e.g. [Meta+<]  [ Z ] to get ž) and use the standard Compose sequence instead (e.g. [Meta+Space] [ < ] [ Z ] to get ž), it is nice to have that little ◌ over there as a reminder.

 

[_wb_]

@Saber:  I like your 3.1b layout, and could definitely live with it.  for some reason, i'd prefer the LED buttons on the right hand side, but that's not a big deal.


i don't think it's bad that it's "German-centric", since German is the next highest language in the language poll after English.


i still think it's a bit "left weighted", since all your punctuation and symbols are over on the left.  I like how mine moves them around a bit, though arguably it's easier to see where things are on yours.


maybe ED can chime back into the discussion, to let us know if three shifts are a full constraint, among other things.  I have a feeling he's blocked us all, so he only sees a handful of replies on this thread

There are different ways to interpret the language poll.

One way to see it is: no language other than English gets a majority, so plain US-QWERTY is enough.

Another way to see it is: German is the next-highest so it has to be supported.

Yet another way to interpret the results is as follows: 14% of the board users would be unhappy if Spanish is not supported, 17% would be unhappy without French, 33% without German, 10% without Italian, 10% without Scandinavian, and so on.

In particular (taking into account the overlaps), the following people would not be happy if only English and German were supported:

 

_wb_, Urben, WizardStan, Grench, elvissteinjr, Linux-SWAT, comradekingu, Canseco, Glyph Reader, dfist45, 3xcl4m4t10n, iprice, zhorro, oskarzer0,Peixinho,TrashyMG, ptitSeb, BAFelton, Neelix, Glyph Reader, dfist45, sebt3, ekianjo, jconprendrien, Klumpen, Kev2442,Farox, PowerGod, Kharg, Holliefant,Lykurgos, FIQ, B-ZaR, Nilsnsn, Losk,  matti1234, LEOXD, Night, oxym

So if that poll with 101 responses can be extrapolated, and if it is in any way representative for the target audience of the Pyra, then about 40% of the people would not be happy with an English+German only layout. Of course 40% is "only a minority", but I think it is a sufficiently large minority to take it into account.

But yes, it would be nice if ED could give us some more directions, in particular about the number of Shifts (2 or 3), the "hardware buttons on top", the desirability  of "DOSBox compatible shift-pairs", and the balance between "clutter" and language support.