It's the keyboard layout.

[codifies]

...well its not like I'd ever take the perverbial now is it?....

 

[Urben]

If there are symbols on the keyboard which are confusing someone too much:

Spoiler

I'm serious, this is a open source device, you can open the body and change whatever you want with enough knowledge.

Its VERY legit to assume its possible for the target group of the pandora/pyra to fix something what you dont like,

especially if its just one or two little symbols you just have to overdraw with the color of the print.

Since this will be likely black its not even a big deal to find a fitting pen for it.

Its even less of a deal as finding a cool sticker to put it over a webcam, which I guess many of us did sometime.

 

[_wb_]

Remember that I'm not really in favor of putting Ins/Del at the game buttons, even though Del is a very useful key, because I consider Ins to be not useful enough to 'deserve' a game button.

There are terminal emulators that I've used where Ctrl+Ins is copy and Shift+Ins is paste and I've seen other programs use it similarly. There is also it's usage for switching between normal and overwrite modes in word processing type programs. I'm not sure if this is enough to warrant giving it a dedicated key (like in the layouts that have it, along with Del, on the two extra game buttons) though, at least traditionally, it usually is, even on some small netbook and android keyboards and certainly most laptop keyboards.

Yes. I also use Ins to select files in Midnight Commander. So don't have a big problem with giving it a dedicated key. It's just not nearly as important as Del to have it on a dedicated key.

I also like the shortcuts Ctrl+Ins for copy, Shift+Ins for paste (and Shift+Del for cut, by the way), but in most cases you can also use Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V (and Ctrl+X), and if those are not available (like on the terminal, where Ctrl+C is used to kill programs), then typically Ctrl+Shift+C, Ctrl+Shift+V will work.

Overwrite mode in text editors is something not a lot of people use, I think, and more often than not, I accidentally press Ins and start overwriting stuff and that can be annoying.

Anyway, Ins/Del make a natural pair so if Del is on one of those action buttons, then Ins has to be on the other.

 

[Saber]

Agree with Eight Bit and Comradekingu here about too many languages incorporated being too many languages in general. If French and Dutch are the gold standard to go by then Acute, Grave, Circumflex are the epitome of a functional dead key diacritic base. Many "foreign" Pyra users will need these three. Umlauts for all too obvious reasons as well. Rounding it out are letters for Å, Æ, Ç, Ñ, and a few others.

Sometimes the painting is more beautiful when you don't dip your brush into every color. 

 

[_wb_]

Agree with Eight Bit and Comradekingu here about too many languages incorporated being too many languages in general. If French and Dutch are the gold standard to go by then Acute, Grave, Circumflex are the epitome of a functional dead key diacritic base. Many "foreign" Pyra users will need these three. Umlauts for all too obvious reasons as well. Rounding it out are letters for Å, Æ, Ç, Ñ, and a few others.

Sometimes the painting is more beautiful when you don't dip your brush into every color. 

Dutch and French need ë and ï probably more frequently than ü ä ö, so a dead umlaut is more useful to them than dedicated üäö keys.

Tilde as a diacritic is useful for ã and õ in Portuguese (and ñ if it is not already available).

Å and Æ are not that useful, they're only really used in Scandinavian languages.

With just acute, grave, umlaut, circumflex, tilde, caron/breve, cedilla/ogonek/comma, ring/dot and stroke (9 diacritic keys) you can in principle cover everything (except Æ Œ), but of course it's more convenient to have some of them as precomposed letters.

 

[Grench]

Agree with Eight Bit and Comradekingu here about too many languages incorporated being too many languages in general. If French and Dutch are the gold standard to go by then Acute, Grave, Circumflex are the epitome of a functional dead key diacritic base. Many "foreign" Pyra users will need these three. Umlauts for all too obvious reasons as well. Rounding it out are letters for Å, Æ, Ç, Ñ, and a few others.

Sometimes the painting is more beautiful when you don't dip your brush into every color. 

 Dutch and French need ë and ï probably more frequently than ü ä ö, so a dead umlaut is more useful to them than dedicated üäö keys.

Tilde as a diacritic is useful for ã and õ in Portuguese (and ñ if it is not already available).

Å and Æ are not that useful, they're only really used in Scandinavian languages.

With just acute, grave, umlaut, circumflex, tilde, caron/breve, cedilla/ogonek/comma, ring/dot and stroke (9 diacritic keys) you can in principle cover everything (except Æ Œ), but of course it's more convenient to have some of them as precomposed letters.

If I count right, this has all 9 without being 'too cluttered'.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/506b2c784b770c2b396be9ce4b6044d9

I went at length on this post that may have been finished after the conversation passed it:

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/17881-its-the-keyboard-layout/?p=383959/URL]

Is » and « your only issue with this? (Explained why it might be a good solution in linked message.)

Is it 'the right point' for a compromise?

 

[_wb_]

Agree with Eight Bit and Comradekingu here about too many languages incorporated being too many languages in general. If French and Dutch are the gold standard to go by then Acute, Grave, Circumflex are the epitome of a functional dead key diacritic base. Many "foreign" Pyra users will need these three. Umlauts for all too obvious reasons as well. Rounding it out are letters for Å, Æ, Ç, Ñ, and a few others.


Sometimes the painting is more beautiful when you don't dip your brush into every color. 

 
Dutch and French need ë and ï probably more frequently than ü ä ö, so a dead umlaut is more useful to them than dedicated üäö keys.


Tilde as a diacritic is useful for ã and õ in Portuguese (and ñ if it is not already available).


Å and Æ are not that useful, they're only really used in Scandinavian languages.


With just acute, grave, umlaut, circumflex, tilde, caron/breve, cedilla/ogonek/comma, ring/dot and stroke (9 diacritic keys) you can in principle cover everything (except Æ Œ), but of course it's more convenient to have some of them as precomposed letters.

If I count right, this has all 9 without being 'too cluttered'.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/506b2c784b770c2b396be9ce4b6044d9


I went at length on this post that may have been finished after the conversation passed it:

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/17881-its-the-keyboard-layout/?p=383959/URL]


Is » and « your only issue with this? (Explained why it might be a good solution in linked message.)


Is it 'the right point' for a compromise?

Yes, that one has all diacritics, even the Hungarian double acutes (the tenth one I forgot).

Besides the « » (which could easily be changed to Ins/Del), I also prefer to have Tab as a dedicated key.

Shoulder Shift/Meta on the right is OK for me, but I don't really see the advantage, and on the Pandora Shift and Ctrl are L1 and R1.

I wouldn't label the Compose key, because of two reasons:

- it is something that can easily be modified: if you plan to use it a lot, you probably want it on a dedicated key (e.g. keyboard Shift or Meta, if you're using the shoulders anyway)

- if there are so many dead diacritics and labeled special symbols, most people will not need Compose

Other than those remarks, it's certainly a layout I could live with.

Something like this would be even better imo:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/aa2e94f502cf26d345809d43beff7466

(or http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/f974cd897d32fa2d6a980a5fcb4c2dceif you don't like the /? on space)

 

[comradekingu]

There is a difference between "having language support" and being able to type a language from the point of view of the user.

AltGr+/diactrics is ok for interlingual use other than english, which is convenient to a lot of users, but the only thing good enough for real support is dedicated keys,

which is even more users.

 

[_wb_]

There is a difference between "having language support" and being able to type a language from the point of view of the user.


AltGr+/diactrics is ok for interlingual use other than english, which is convenient to a lot of users, but the only thing good enough for real support is dedicated keys,


which is even more users.

That depends on the language. For German and Scandinavian, dedicated keys are the way to go. For Spanish, Portuguese, and French, a mix between dedicated keys (for çñé) and diacritics (for grave/acute/circumflex) is best. For Italian and Dutch, no dedicated keys are needed but diacritics are used.

Dedicated primary keys are nice to have, but we don't have keys to spare, so keeping 3 keys available for that comes at a rather heavy price imo.

 

[ible]

+ and - on the game pad is duplicating + and - on the keyboard (waste of keys). It adds to confusion. "Whhich + do I press?" It hurts custom mapping - mapping + to 'grenade1' would mean loosing the ability to type the symbol +.

Not that I'm supporting _wb_'s decision to put +/- on the facebuttons (I wanted those at some point, but have gone to Ins/Del), but you don't have to worry about degeneracy.  Numpad +/- give different keycodes than keyboard +/-, so _wb_ can safely assign two different keycodes to his two different -/+ buttons, so that they can be remapped without difficulty.  (This blew my mind when I learned about it.)

I think my biggest concern with Saber's layout is exactly this sort of degeneracy, but with the three shifts.  Will ED have three distinct keycodes for each shift?  If so, they aren't exactly standard shifts, and may need tweaking in software to get it right.  If not, then how can we remap them if we so desire?  In either case, it seems better not to have three shifts, but rather only two.

 

[comradekingu]

For languages other than English, having places to put language modifiers, and dedicated letters is the way to go.

That place is predominantly, and most importantly possible, on the right half of the keyboard.

If you remove that, you are left with Dutch, Swahili and catalan. With language-modifiers in the wrong place.

At the point where you said "is the way to go for german" is the point were germans are either in, or out.

 

[Grench]

 

[codifies]

call me a worry wart, but I'm still not convinced about bunching all those symbols { [ \ etc on the right side is going to work - it just looks like a difficult to use mistake - hope I'm wrong....

 

[Grench]

call me a worry wart, but I'm still not convinced about bunching all those symbols { [ \ etc on the right side is going to work - it just looks like a difficult to use mistake - hope I'm wrong....

Ref:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QWERTY#United_States

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/94ca174096ca3adbe2b65ab27ac253b0

(note: I found another subtle cleanup that could be done.)

They all come from the right side of the US standard keyboard. If you use one, that will be where you instinctively look there to find them.

Many of them are on the Fn and Fn+shift layer. It should not be a problem as Fn and Shift are together on the bottom left and should be easily chordable with the left thumb.

The 'paired' symbols that are on the Fn layer are the type where you'll generally type in both sides then left arrow one and fill in the contents.

Should be easy.

 

[Neelix]

Tab is essentially a long space. The Pandora had tab on space, but the implementation was bad since space was right next to the Fn button. With the Fn key on the left and space on the right, Fn+space=tab becomes a very easy combo.

This makes no sense to me. How is forcing the use of 2 fingers on opposite sides of the keyboard for tab better, when the Pandora allows you to press it with one finger in a single motion? (which to my mind almost a good as having a dedicated key for it)   Much easier to trigger it with Fn and space together than not.

Thinking it through on the 5th and 6th game buttons, I don't think it's a great idea to have them tied to any key that is likely to be needed in communications/typing.

I'm curious what game you have in mind that doesn't separate text entry from action sequences.  (and if it doesn't, do you really have time during action to be editing your text beyond the use of backspace?)

- Neelix

 

[szr]

call me a worry wart, but I'm still not convinced about bunching all those symbols { [ \ etc on the right side is going to work - it just looks like a difficult to use mistake - hope I'm wrong....

Ref:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QWERTY#United_States

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/94ca174096ca3adbe2b65ab27ac253b0


(note: I found another subtle cleanup that could be done.)


They all come from the right side of the US standard keyboard. If you use one, that will be where you instinctively look there to find them.


Many of them are on the Fn and Fn+shift layer. It should not be a problem as Fn and Shift are together on the bottom left and should be easily chordable with the left thumb.


The 'paired' symbols that are on the Fn layer are the type where you'll generally type in both sides then left arrow one and fill in the contents.


Should be easy.

I Like this layout, though I would suggest not separating PrtScn and SysRq as they are usually the same key (iirc SysRq is Shift + PrtScn on a regular US keyboard) and instead replace SysRq with Pause (which is also Break on a US keyboard) leaving SysRq = Shift + PrtScn just like on a full size keyboard. Would this not make more sense, especially given Pause/Break isn't otherwise present in this layout that I can see?

Also, why do << and >> need their own keys? I thought those were going to be numpad +/- and maybe Ins and Del.

 

[FaeMinx]

Guys, scrap everything:

http://www.ozy.com/good-sht/wanna-type-faster-meet-a-buzzy-new-keyboard/39015?utm_source=Outbrain&utm_medium=CPC&utm_campaign=INTL%20-%20All%20Clicks%20ALL%20Devices

Start again. ;D

*kidding*

 

[comradekingu]

I have not been following this discussion closely but looked at some proposals this weekend. The one thing that struck me is that many including _wb_'s tries to be an insane amount of everything at once. Compatible with everything != usable. If each button has so many keycodes that you need a third level modifier just to type in your language, then it is too much to read or print on keymat as well. That means you have to look it up, so why not have more layouts available and switch to a suitable one with limited need for modifiers as the Kingu's functional area? I would rather switch between two sane layouts than hitting modifiers, combobuttons and spend time reading too tiny keymat print.


Cheers

We will need a third level modifier anyway. We simply don't have enough keys to avoid that.

Switching to a more suitable layout and tweaking the mapping to your personal preferences (while invalidating the labels on the keys) is always a possibility, no matter which labels we put on the keys.

The extra symbols in my proposal (äöüßçñéèàøæå) do indeed add a bit of visual clutter, but the advantage is that for nearly everyone, there's no need to remap anything at all.

This is not an advantage, its a solid disadvantage. The only serious support you get is Dutch, Catalan, and Swahili. If you are ok with language-modifiers in the wrong place. None of the stuff that matters most. German, French, Spanish, Italian, etc.

The option isnt not printing them, allthough that would be better, its allowing for real support as per how a typewriter/keyboard works, doing dedicated keys and language-modifiers as close to where they are supposed to be as possible. Additionally you can do hidden symbols, so who is that good for?

The "for everyone" mentality is only useful for interlingual purposes. And it can be employed as such, hidden. So why hidden?

If you look at the usergroup, and their languages, you disadvantage half the usergroup (the english people) by printing visual symbols.

The "advantage" of which, to get any efficiency, for nearly everyone (other than english people) you need to remap _the whole keyboard_.

Edit: As a sidenote, there are a lot more language-modifiers on my layout, they are just, you guessed it, hidden as per US-international defaults.

 

[ssokolow]

I'm really, really starting to feel the international symbols should be cut out completely. I don't mind people having them at their disposal, I want everyone to be happy with the product, blablabla. But purely personally especially the backlight will just "pop" that crap to my eyes to annoy me all the time.

It makes no difference to me what the layout is: like I've said, I'm sure I'll remap many things no matter which layout is chosen. But basically the visual appearance is just not going to appeal to me. I don't use scandinavian keyboards when I can avoid them on desktops... much less a scan-ger-span-franian.

So I'd just gladly pay extra for a C64 retrokeymat to make my Pyra do the retro thing properly! Not insane extra, of course, but lets just say I did not consider the 100 euro alu case for the Pandora as "too expensive" for something I use WAY more daily than my phone, microwave, car, toilet...

And even that C64 map would surely have less symbols than some layouts here...

Oooh... waaait... ooooooooh, first Ultima was 35 years ago next year, I think I can still read the alphabet without constantly looking up the symbols oh gosh that would just really rock... backlit futhark-clone alphabet lighting my magic box... oooooooooooooh.... I waaaaaaaant!

Agreed. I'm Canadian, so our laptops tend to have the compacted laptop equivalent to 105-key keyboards with US-104 printing in black, Fn-accessible numpad in blue, and Canadian Multilingual French in green... but those aren't backlit and the keys have much more room for whitespace on them, so I can just ignore the green text with a little effort.


...and, since they're using the ordinary compacted version of the US layout, I don't have to look at them and can type from muscle memory.


(When I need to type accented letters for names like André or words like sœur, français, and société on my desktop, I rely on having remapped Control_R to Compose on my US-104 keyboard. I do have Alt_R remapped as ISO_Level3_Shift via -variant altgr-intl -option lv3:ralt_switch but I only really use it for exponents and other things I couldn't originally find a compose mapping for like this emote. ¬_¬ )


My attitude toward the Pyra keyboard has been that, since I don't have the time or the know-how to keep up with the discussion, I'm just going to assume it's guaranteed to look horrible and cramped with symbols I'll never use and hope this thread will have enough success at paring that back that it can still impress the way my black Pandora does.

 

[_wb_]

Tab is essentially a long space. The Pandora had tab on space, but the implementation was bad since space was right next to the Fn button. With the Fn key on the left and space on the right, Fn+space=tab becomes a very easy combo.

This makes no sense to me. How is forcing the use of 2 fingers on opposite sides of the keyboard for tab better, when the Pandora allows you to press it with one finger in a single motion? (which to my mind almost a good as having a dedicated key for it)   Much easier to trigger it with Fn and space together than not.

For doing a single Tab, the Pandora way is probably better indeed.

For doing multiple (repeated) Tabs, holding Fn/Meta with one thumb (or on a modifier) while repeatedly hitting Space is going to be better than what you can do on the Pandora.

Having a dedicated Tab key is better still.