It's the keyboard layout.

[szr]

There is a proposal that meets this user's needs.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/b863ac229b0af4b0f46d5e73ca3104b8

Nice, bit crowded on the labels but a decent lay-out imo. I do ask myself why the ABXY buttons are the other way around compared to the pandora.

You're right.  Fixed.  Thank you for the feedback!

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/fcd69e93d9f1fdd811c8d13cc212f3a6

Interesting layout, though I have one question. You have Break as FN + Pause (right below Start and Select), though looking at my own full-size keyboard, Break is usually simply Shift + Pause, so would it really need to be an FN key? If the normal Shift + Pause were to be used for Break, then FN + Pause could be used for something else.

Also, would it not make sense to use "Start" for the Pause key, given how Start in many console (many of which will be emulated) use "start" to pause/unpause the game? Seems like it would be rather fitting imho.

Either way, I like how the Pyra is turning out, can't help but be exited.

 

[comradekingu]

The problem with those is i have to sit there and think "what are these people thinking" only to discover its that they think i can do without F11 and F12, which isnt the case.

Edit: I laid out the different options in the earlier post.

 

[Saber]

Fashioned a third layout without Shift + AltGr values on the F-keys. 

• Circumflex has been moved and dead umlaut was added.
• Some characters changed places.

In my sig or here: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/c8dffc8aa605c2aa97cc53fa987402e9

Spoiler

 

[codifies]

I didn't intend that we do without f11 and f12 I just don't see why they need to be contiguous...

Sticking rigidly to the idea that they must be all together is just making life needlessly difficult.

Don't be so quick dismiss those keyboards they are the result (probably) of a team of people trying to solve a similar problem, at the very least we should see if we can't work out where they have gone wrong (if they have)

 

[comradekingu]

Everyone else dismisses those as toy-keyboards, why shouldnt we? People _are_ quick to dismiss keyboards based on hacky layouts. Deal with it or dont, at the peril of selling less units.

If you only have F1-F10 you havent solved any problems, you have created one. The other way to be non-ideal is to step it onto a different row.

Continuous F1-F12 is the standard, everything else is an error. Avoiding making it a visual one is a ok compromize, because F-keys are advanced functionality, and it can be thought via conky/desktop wallpaper to those advanced people. No visual problems enforced on anyone.

 

[Grench]

Everyone else dismisses those as toy-keyboards, why shouldnt we? People _are_ quick to dismiss keyboards based on hacky layouts. Deal with it or dont, at the peril of selling less units.

If you only have F1-F10 you havent solved any problems, you have created one. The other way to be non-ideal is to step it onto a different row.

Continuous F1-F12 is the standard, everything else is an error. Avoiding making it a visual one is a ok compromize, because F-keys are advanced functionality, and it can be thought via conky/desktop wallpaper to those advanced people. No visual problems enforced on anyone.

So... wait...  are you actually stating that you would endorse solving what you see as a visual problem by introducing a physical one?

 

[codifies]

failing to learn by others experience is failure indeed

Can you cite the paragraph of which standard that says function keys have to be contiguous ? (probably not there are no standards for keyboards) 

Avidly avoiding anything you don't consider "normal" (whatever that is) is needlessly limiting your possible options...

 

[Grench]

failing to learn by others experience is failure indeed

Can you cite the paragraph of which standard that says function keys have to be contiguous ? (probably not there are no standards for keyboards) 

Avidly avoiding anything you don't consider "normal" (whatever that is) is needlessly limiting your possible options...

Lol - I think that is the first time in this entire keyboard discussion that I've been accused of thinking too much -inside- the box.

How far out of the box would you like to go?

If you're going to break up F1-F12, do it right and do 3 sets of 4.  Make a number pad while you're at it, retain top level punctuation keys and DosBox compliance AND put ALL of the modifiers on the keyboard so they don't even need to be mapped to the shoulder buttons.

How about we just destroy the box and do it to truly maximize functionality in and out of games?

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/3909b1ca9e87a590a89d24608b7a5de9

 

[rygD]

It returns!  If only we could have that centered space bar.  Everything else aside, can someone give me a list of major cons for having the F# keys and numbers as their own "layer"?

 

[codifies]

@grench I was talking about dismissing all mini keyboard...


And that keyboard of yours is redonkulously cluttered....


8 modifier keys.... 8 on a keyboard with only 41 keys....

 

[ible]

Fashioned a third layout without Shift + AltGr values on the F-keys. 

In my sig or here: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/c8dffc8aa605c2aa97cc53fa987402e9

Your layout is extremely left-thumb heavy. QWERTY is already left-weighted for english usage, and when you put almost all the punctuation over there too, that is bad news for the already tired left thumb. It would be nice to move some of the international meta keys over to the left, and move some punctuation to the right, so it would help to balance the keyboard for English usage. (Like in my layouts, or _wb_'s, or comradekingu's.)

How about we just destroy the box and do it to truly maximize functionality in and out of games?

I think it's about time to give up the dreams of having that keyboard, except by modding. Hopefully the hardware will be implemented in a way to easily software remap things. Three shifts would make keyboard modding harder (because there is a constraint that two of your keys have to do the same thing).

 

[rygD]

8 modifier keys.... 8 on a keyboard with only 41 keys....

It is perfect for thumb use since all modifiers can be hit with either thumb, and additionally hitting both locks them so you have 4 times the non-modifier keys, and you can lock a layer for use in games where they are heavily used.  There are other benefits, but that is one of my favorites.

 

[codifies]

So the fact nearly 20% of the keyboard are modifier keys doesn't suggest anything to you?

 

[rygD]

Are you really asking me to defend a layout we know has a 0% chance of being chosen?  I was merely explaining how it works and part of why I like it.

And, as an overall deviation from typical design I see nothing wrong with having 8 modifier keys, especially considering how they are used.  Is it flawed?  Yep.  Are all the other layouts? Yep.

 

[WizardStan]

On the nature of four characters per key, I took the liberty of gimping this together

Spoiler

All I did was move the F* keys over, and copy them into the upper right corner. As you can see they fit fairly well, quite visible, no squinting required. It's especially cromulent at the F5-F7 keys which are basically dead center of the image; I didn't shift those on the Y axis at all, just moved them directly to the left and a copy in the top right corner.

 

[codifies]

Its a shame so many proposals have demoted number keys to second class citizens they are a cromulent place for the first 10 function keys...

 

[comradekingu]

So, what benefits do 4 symbols per key have?

These are negative effects

• Looks worse
• Keyboards dont have 4 prints per key
• Reliance on Shift+AltGr which is very advanced level treshold stuff
• More squinting required. Printing stuff above each-other not only means stuff gets smaller, you also
• Break the connection between modifier and print-location.

 

A more ideal way is    [Normalpress       Shift+          AltGr+]           [char1 char2 char3]

 

To me it seems like 4-per key is an additional way to implement regular typing (in nonstandard way), as a need occuring from taking away real AltGr.

 

[Saber]

Fashioned a third layout without Shift + AltGr values on the F-keys. 


In my sig or here: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/c8dffc8aa605c2aa97cc53fa987402e9

Your layout is extremely left-thumb heavy. QWERTY is already left-weighted for english usage, and when you put almost all the punctuation over there too, that is bad news for the already tired left thumb. It would be nice to move some of the international meta keys over to the left, and move some punctuation to the right, so it would help to balance the keyboard for English usage. (Like in my layouts, or _wb_'s, or comradekingu's.)

My layouts are not left-thumb heavy if you look at logically. With the universally frequent punctuation { } [ ] ; : ' " / ? , . situated more on the left half and the main modifier(AltGr, which generates them), Spacebar, Enter, and Backspace(all four of which are thumb heavy keys on their own mind you) on the right side, you deliver a balanced environment for both thumbs to work in unison. Think about it. Right thumb followed by left thumb and right thumb followed immediately by left thumb, back and forth, like a seesaw. What you're championing is left thumb then left thumb again then right thumb then left thumb. 

 

[Neelix]

• Looks worse

This is entirely a matter of opinion. I happen to disagree.

• Keyboards dont have 4 prints per key

This is irrelevant. Normal keyboards have more keys.


For the record though there is a precedent. I have owned keyboards with 4 symbols on a key. One example specifically comes to mind:


| ¦


\ ¬


Which funnily enough corresponded to shifted, AltGR shifted, unshifted and AltGr unshifted versions of the key in the US international layout.

• Reliance on Shift+AltGr which is very advanced level treshold stuff

We're going to have to be able to rely on Shift+AltGr combinations anyway for the upper and lower case versions of any accented letters included.

• More squinting required. Printing stuff above each-other not only means stuff gets smaller, you also

No more than on the number keys on the pandora as WizardStan demonstrated above.

• Break the connection between modifier and print-location.

Not if you do it right.

- Neelix

 

[ible]

Fashioned a third layout without Shift + AltGr values on the F-keys. 

In my sig or here: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/c8dffc8aa605c2aa97cc53fa987402e9

Your layout is extremely left-thumb heavy. QWERTY is already left-weighted for english usage, and when you put almost all the punctuation over there too, that is bad news for the already tired left thumb. It would be nice to move some of the international meta keys over to the left, and move some punctuation to the right, so it would help to balance the keyboard for English usage. (Like in my layouts, or _wb_'s, or comradekingu's.)

My layouts are not left-thumb heavy if you look at logically. With the universally frequent punctuation { } [ ] ; : ' " / ? , . situated more on the left half and the main modifier(AltGr, which generates them), Spacebar, Enter, and Backspace(all four of which are thumb heavy keys on their own mind you) on the right side, you deliver a balanced environment for both thumbs to work in unison. Think about it. Right thumb followed by left thumb and right thumb followed immediately by left thumb, back and forth, like a seesaw. What you're championing is left thumb then left thumb again then right thumb then left thumb.

You'd have to give me a specific sequence you're thinking of. It's not bad to have two right thumb hits (, then space) if the keys are close. It also feels natural moving the thumbs inward (, or . then space) as opposed to outward.

More than half of commonly used English words end with ETDS, all of which are left side of the keyboard. So it would be nice to have ,. on the right side of the keyboard, also, as it turns out, where they are on a standard keyboard

http://letterfrequency.org/