It's the keyboard layout.

[codifies]

I didn't intend that we do without f11 and f12 I just don't see why they need to be contiguous...

Sticking rigidly to the idea that they must be all together is just making life needlessly difficult.

Don't be so quick dismiss those keyboards they are the result (probably) of a team of people trying to solve a similar problem, at the very least we should see if we can't work out where they have gone wrong (if they have)

 

[comradekingu]

Everyone else dismisses those as toy-keyboards, why shouldnt we? People _are_ quick to dismiss keyboards based on hacky layouts. Deal with it or dont, at the peril of selling less units.

If you only have F1-F10 you havent solved any problems, you have created one. The other way to be non-ideal is to step it onto a different row.

Continuous F1-F12 is the standard, everything else is an error. Avoiding making it a visual one is a ok compromize, because F-keys are advanced functionality, and it can be thought via conky/desktop wallpaper to those advanced people. No visual problems enforced on anyone.

 

[Grench]

Everyone else dismisses those as toy-keyboards, why shouldnt we? People _are_ quick to dismiss keyboards based on hacky layouts. Deal with it or dont, at the peril of selling less units.

If you only have F1-F10 you havent solved any problems, you have created one. The other way to be non-ideal is to step it onto a different row.

Continuous F1-F12 is the standard, everything else is an error. Avoiding making it a visual one is a ok compromize, because F-keys are advanced functionality, and it can be thought via conky/desktop wallpaper to those advanced people. No visual problems enforced on anyone.

So... wait...  are you actually stating that you would endorse solving what you see as a visual problem by introducing a physical one?

 

[codifies]

failing to learn by others experience is failure indeed

Can you cite the paragraph of which standard that says function keys have to be contiguous ? (probably not there are no standards for keyboards) 

Avidly avoiding anything you don't consider "normal" (whatever that is) is needlessly limiting your possible options...

 

[Grench]

failing to learn by others experience is failure indeed

Can you cite the paragraph of which standard that says function keys have to be contiguous ? (probably not there are no standards for keyboards) 

Avidly avoiding anything you don't consider "normal" (whatever that is) is needlessly limiting your possible options...

Lol - I think that is the first time in this entire keyboard discussion that I've been accused of thinking too much -inside- the box.

How far out of the box would you like to go?

If you're going to break up F1-F12, do it right and do 3 sets of 4.  Make a number pad while you're at it, retain top level punctuation keys and DosBox compliance AND put ALL of the modifiers on the keyboard so they don't even need to be mapped to the shoulder buttons.

How about we just destroy the box and do it to truly maximize functionality in and out of games?

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/3909b1ca9e87a590a89d24608b7a5de9

 

[rygD]

It returns!  If only we could have that centered space bar.  Everything else aside, can someone give me a list of major cons for having the F# keys and numbers as their own "layer"?

 

[codifies]

@grench I was talking about dismissing all mini keyboard...


And that keyboard of yours is redonkulously cluttered....


8 modifier keys.... 8 on a keyboard with only 41 keys....

 

[ible]

Fashioned a third layout without Shift + AltGr values on the F-keys. 

In my sig or here: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/c8dffc8aa605c2aa97cc53fa987402e9

Your layout is extremely left-thumb heavy. QWERTY is already left-weighted for english usage, and when you put almost all the punctuation over there too, that is bad news for the already tired left thumb. It would be nice to move some of the international meta keys over to the left, and move some punctuation to the right, so it would help to balance the keyboard for English usage. (Like in my layouts, or _wb_'s, or comradekingu's.)

How about we just destroy the box and do it to truly maximize functionality in and out of games?

I think it's about time to give up the dreams of having that keyboard, except by modding. Hopefully the hardware will be implemented in a way to easily software remap things. Three shifts would make keyboard modding harder (because there is a constraint that two of your keys have to do the same thing).

 

[rygD]

8 modifier keys.... 8 on a keyboard with only 41 keys....

It is perfect for thumb use since all modifiers can be hit with either thumb, and additionally hitting both locks them so you have 4 times the non-modifier keys, and you can lock a layer for use in games where they are heavily used.  There are other benefits, but that is one of my favorites.

 

[codifies]

So the fact nearly 20% of the keyboard are modifier keys doesn't suggest anything to you?

 

[rygD]

Are you really asking me to defend a layout we know has a 0% chance of being chosen?  I was merely explaining how it works and part of why I like it.

And, as an overall deviation from typical design I see nothing wrong with having 8 modifier keys, especially considering how they are used.  Is it flawed?  Yep.  Are all the other layouts? Yep.

 

[WizardStan]

On the nature of four characters per key, I took the liberty of gimping this together

Spoiler

All I did was move the F* keys over, and copy them into the upper right corner. As you can see they fit fairly well, quite visible, no squinting required. It's especially cromulent at the F5-F7 keys which are basically dead center of the image; I didn't shift those on the Y axis at all, just moved them directly to the left and a copy in the top right corner.

 

[codifies]

Its a shame so many proposals have demoted number keys to second class citizens they are a cromulent place for the first 10 function keys...

 

[comradekingu]

So, what benefits do 4 symbols per key have?

These are negative effects

• Looks worse
• Keyboards dont have 4 prints per key
• Reliance on Shift+AltGr which is very advanced level treshold stuff
• More squinting required. Printing stuff above each-other not only means stuff gets smaller, you also
• Break the connection between modifier and print-location.

 

A more ideal way is    [Normalpress       Shift+          AltGr+]           [char1 char2 char3]

 

To me it seems like 4-per key is an additional way to implement regular typing (in nonstandard way), as a need occuring from taking away real AltGr.

 

[Saber]

Fashioned a third layout without Shift + AltGr values on the F-keys. 


In my sig or here: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/c8dffc8aa605c2aa97cc53fa987402e9

Your layout is extremely left-thumb heavy. QWERTY is already left-weighted for english usage, and when you put almost all the punctuation over there too, that is bad news for the already tired left thumb. It would be nice to move some of the international meta keys over to the left, and move some punctuation to the right, so it would help to balance the keyboard for English usage. (Like in my layouts, or _wb_'s, or comradekingu's.)

My layouts are not left-thumb heavy if you look at logically. With the universally frequent punctuation { } [ ] ; : ' " / ? , . situated more on the left half and the main modifier(AltGr, which generates them), Spacebar, Enter, and Backspace(all four of which are thumb heavy keys on their own mind you) on the right side, you deliver a balanced environment for both thumbs to work in unison. Think about it. Right thumb followed by left thumb and right thumb followed immediately by left thumb, back and forth, like a seesaw. What you're championing is left thumb then left thumb again then right thumb then left thumb. 

 

[Neelix]

• Looks worse

This is entirely a matter of opinion. I happen to disagree.

• Keyboards dont have 4 prints per key

This is irrelevant. Normal keyboards have more keys.


For the record though there is a precedent. I have owned keyboards with 4 symbols on a key. One example specifically comes to mind:


| ¦


\ ¬


Which funnily enough corresponded to shifted, AltGR shifted, unshifted and AltGr unshifted versions of the key in the US international layout.

• Reliance on Shift+AltGr which is very advanced level treshold stuff

We're going to have to be able to rely on Shift+AltGr combinations anyway for the upper and lower case versions of any accented letters included.

• More squinting required. Printing stuff above each-other not only means stuff gets smaller, you also

No more than on the number keys on the pandora as WizardStan demonstrated above.

• Break the connection between modifier and print-location.

Not if you do it right.

- Neelix

 

[ible]

Fashioned a third layout without Shift + AltGr values on the F-keys. 

In my sig or here: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/c8dffc8aa605c2aa97cc53fa987402e9

Your layout is extremely left-thumb heavy. QWERTY is already left-weighted for english usage, and when you put almost all the punctuation over there too, that is bad news for the already tired left thumb. It would be nice to move some of the international meta keys over to the left, and move some punctuation to the right, so it would help to balance the keyboard for English usage. (Like in my layouts, or _wb_'s, or comradekingu's.)

My layouts are not left-thumb heavy if you look at logically. With the universally frequent punctuation { } [ ] ; : ' " / ? , . situated more on the left half and the main modifier(AltGr, which generates them), Spacebar, Enter, and Backspace(all four of which are thumb heavy keys on their own mind you) on the right side, you deliver a balanced environment for both thumbs to work in unison. Think about it. Right thumb followed by left thumb and right thumb followed immediately by left thumb, back and forth, like a seesaw. What you're championing is left thumb then left thumb again then right thumb then left thumb.

You'd have to give me a specific sequence you're thinking of. It's not bad to have two right thumb hits (, then space) if the keys are close. It also feels natural moving the thumbs inward (, or . then space) as opposed to outward.

More than half of commonly used English words end with ETDS, all of which are left side of the keyboard. So it would be nice to have ,. on the right side of the keyboard, also, as it turns out, where they are on a standard keyboard

http://letterfrequency.org/

 

[comradekingu]

Saber: You made the logical error of just paying attention to weight-distribution between the sides. You have to consider actual use.

You can have 50/50 weight-distribution statistically, but still go from one side to the next for every single keypress.

Most english words start on something on the left too, so its better to have shift on the right. (Other than for A, provided the shift is next to a)

Neelix: You can disagree all you want, its a visual problem, and it looks different than any real keyboard. Since its a hack, bringing attention to it is bad.

Thats "a" key, not "the keys" You having owned something like that doesnt make it better.

You dont _have_ to rely on including hardcoded accented letters, you could just implement them as 1. Real keys. (2.Real AltGr) 3. real compose  4. Real dead-diactric.

The issue is putting real symbols behind shift+altGr, that puts it out of reach for a great majority of users.

The pandora isnt good. To the visual nature of the argument: Using bigger symbols means less squinting, and is more logical.

About 4-per-key: What is "right" in this sense? Atleast any combination thereof is wrong insofar as it isnt the norm, but please provide an example like i did.

 

[Neelix]

The issue is putting real symbols behind shift+altGr, that puts it out of reach for a great majority of users.

How?  Do you really think the majority of users are incapable of pressing two buttons at once when a single finger easily covers both?  Or do you think them so dim as to be incapable of comprehending the idea that you could use 2 modifiers at once?

- Neelix

 

[comradekingu]

Thats only how it works in your head.

You arent accounting for this:

Show someone a keyboard where a key has 4 prints, ask them to produce all 4 without help.  It fails at _regular_ AltGr.  Shift+AltGr, when that isnt even a standard keyboard-feature...  Try it.

You are presenting a straw-man argument. Users arent dim just because they arent keyboard-pros. I didnt say so, and you brought it up. I am taking the side of regular users, you are showing them in front of you.

Edit: Even if that _were_ the case, standard is better, on a multitude of levels.

Edit2: Lets say regular users were able to use shift+altGr for things shift+altGr isnt used for. It is still a risk to take to go there, considering no keyboard that is vastly different has ever been popular with the general mass. The pandora keyboard, isnt even popular with us, and thats less needlessly advanced than shift+altGr.

Shift+AltGr isnt actually better for anyone, but it is a whole lot worse for many people.