It's the keyboard layout.

[Linux-SWAT]

The cédille is also missing "ç".

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Same for the accent grave "è" "à" "ù". The "`" seems actually a different character.

 

[bubblebee]

But I do think that it would be better no to put the labels Ä Ö Ü ß on the keymat. That way, it looks more universal. You can still have those keys in those spots by default, just don't label them. That way, it's nicer for all the non-Germans, who don't need those symbols, or who want to put different symbols in those spots (e.g. Å Æ Ø).

You're absolutely right.

In my proposal, Ä is at A, Ö is at O, Ü is at U and ß is at S. This is of course not how it is on a real German keyboard (they have dedicated keys at P+1 and L+2, which is impossible in a centered layout; for this reason I still prefer a left-aligned layout, but let's not go there again), but it is easy enough to remember, even without the explicit label.

I'm a german user and using an old IBM keyboard (US layout) the same way. This is pretty natural.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

I hope that the mouse click will be set at buttons instead of nubs with some configuration options.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

The D-pad "up down left right" buttons should not be modified when using a modifier.

This setup would be very inconvenient when typing some text/code/whatever.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

I would swap the insert/delete buttons because the lower button has more risks to be accidentally pressed, and it would be more a problem is delete is pressed than insert.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

In the schematic, I presume that the Up=Double Left is in fact Double Click ?

 

[ptitSeb]

• It should have most of the keys a normal keyboard has (i.e. Pandora keyboard has issues with DosBox).

I don't want to enter the keyboard war, but just on that, I want to precise what is the issue.

In fact, there is the same issue in QEMU. The problem is the "Shift" state for ":" (for example) is not the same between Pandora and normal Keyboard. That's why you have a unexpected behavor of the key. And that was  with a "Fn" key that is invisible from SDL or X11.

With a Alt-Gr key (so a right-alt), the number of similar issue will increase greatly!

The good new is, It is fixable (I have done it on a beta, still unreleased, version of QEMU).

 

[FamilyGuy]

French Canadian here,

Why not use a ¨ dead key instead of using three keys for ö, ü, ä? This would allow for other dead keys like ¸ or ` while having the same number of typeable letters...


In any case, it'd be nice to have a friendly interface to actually adapt the keymap in the os, this way everybody could have what they prefer. I know a lot of us non-USA keyboardist are used to type on a keyboard that doesn't match its keymap anyways.

FG

 

[_wb_]

As a stupid American who doesn't like doing programming much away from a full keyboard I don't feel like I have much useful input to this thread, but I did want to at least respond to this:

I don't like hiding Esc behind AltGr. It's just too commonly used, much more common than, say, Tab. Especially Vim users will scream bloody murder at that.

I for one would much prefer dedicated Tab to dedicated Esc. Even in vim, I manually tab in programming (auto-tab causes more problems than it's worth for me). But moreover, I find myself wanting tab-completion a lot in terminals on Pandora. Having the dedicated key in the normal position would be a big improvement over where it is now.


But that's just me, I have no idea if this reflects how other people type.

Yes, Tab is WAY more important than Esc. Besides indentation and auto-complete, it's also used to switch between input fields, switch between windows (alt-tab), switch between panels (in Midnight Commander that is), etc. It's nearly as important as space and enter.

Also, it's a key that you tend to have to press more than once in a row, which is a very good reason to make it a dedicated key.

But we can have dedicated Tab AND Esc keys, like in my proposal: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/96ce05fe6ad1693cb29247f4d18b7974

So we don't have to choose.

 

[Grench]

Kitchen sink multiple language keyboard layout with 'lockable' numeric and function keys, top line escape key.

I have controls for keyboard and screen back lights as well as radio controls.

It should be DOSBOX compatible/friendly as well.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/889203bbda950c57be5d68b62ea0b26b

I think I have English, German, French and maybe Finish covered?  Diacritics are used via a centrally located 'dead key' that functions in both regular and Fn mode.

Also, I have 6 places left for additional non-English letters or anything that has been missed.

So, what did I miss?

note:  this has not been completely optimized for placement.

 

[rygD]

_wb_, you make a good point about having a dedicated Tab because you often need to hit it repeatedly.  This is the same reason I prefer a dedicated Delete key.  I would need to try out using one that is brought out via a modifier to see if it is a problem, but my guess is that it will work fine, just slightly inconvenient.  I can't think of any common key combinations that use Delete, so those may not be a problem either.

Edit: Grench, I think you missed where ED said not to post completely different layouts.

 

[Urben]

French Canadian here,

Why not use a ¨ dead key instead of using three keys for ö, ü, ä? This would allow for other dead keys like ¸ or ` while having the same number of typeable letters...

In any case, it'd be nice to have a friendly interface to actually adapt the keymap in the os, this way everybody could have what they prefer. I know a lot of us non-USA keyboardist are used to type on a keyboard that doesn't match its keymap anyways.

FG

This is actually a pretty good idea.

 

[_wb_]

What about the accent aigu "é" ?

Also wouldn't it be more convenient to have a separate "¨".

The "ï" is actually missing, so it will allow more combinations, and even add space for more characters.

ë is also missing, and that's the one we probably need most frequently in Dutch. You can use Compose " <vowel> to produce äëïöü. In my proposal, you can also use Meta+" <vowel>, so it only takes two thumb presses if you use the shoulder buttons as modifiers.

áéíóú would be Compose ' <vowel>, or Meta+' <vowel> in my proposal.

The cédille is also missing "ç".

Is Compose comma C good enough for ç/Ç?

Meta+C is already taken for [ in my proposal, it could be freed I guess, but then why stop there, we could also want ñ and Ş and Ł and č and ž and so on, and there would be no way to add all of them. Meta+S is available, which makes sense since that's how a ç sounds.

Same for the accent grave "è" "à" "ù". The "`" seems actually a different character.

Compose ` <vowel> gives àèìòù. In my proposal you can also use Shift+` <vowel>. And of course if you're writing French, you would probably want to map some dedicated combinations, like Meta+A for à.

For backtick (`) it actually kind of makes sense to make it a dead diacritic by default (so you have to follow it with space to get the actual backtick), since it is so rarely used as a standalone ASCII character -- the only exceptions I know are left quote marks in TeX, and shell scripts. In the latter you better use $(foo) instead of `foo` anyway, because that way you can nest it. The only objection I have to making backtick a dead key by default, is that Ubuntu uses Alt+` as a way to switch between the different windows of the same program.

 

[Grench]

Edit: Grench, I think you missed where ED said not to post completely different layouts.

Nope - didn't miss it.  However, I feel that the DosBox compatibility issues cannot be overcome with the Saber layout.  I see DosBox as a critical application for this emulation device.  Also, I feel that the need to be able to 'lock' and have easy access to Fn keys is pretty critical.

Those combined with the demands for a keyboard that has easily accessed keys for languages other than English led me to the layout I posted.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/889203bbda950c57be5d68b62ea0b26b

I'm pretty sure it meets the requirements as stated AND makes it compliant with DosBox.

 

[_wb_]

_wb_, you make a good point about having a dedicated Tab because you often need to hit it repeatedly.  This is the same reason I prefer a dedicated Delete key.  I would need to try out using one that is brought out via a modifier to see if it is a problem, but my guess is that it will work fine, just slightly inconvenient.  I can't think of any common key combinations that use Delete, so those may not be a problem either.

Yes, a dedicated Delete key would be kind of nice. But a dedicated Insert key is kind of pointless (most people don't even use Ins at all), and since it also makes sense to have Ins and Del close to one another, you are forced to do something pointless (make Ins dedicated) just to do something nice (make Del dedicated).

On the other hand, Delete is probably one of those keys like Esc that you don't want to hit accidentally. It can after all cause files to be deleted and nasty stuff like that.

I like to have dedicated + and - for zooming (something you tend to do repeatedly), and also for --long-style-parameters, dashes (-- and --- in TeX), to make ascii separator lines like this ---------------------, to increment or decrement a variable (k--, c++). Not very important, but it's nice. Zooming is pretty important if all you have is a small screen.

 

[Grench]

_wb_, you make a good point about having a dedicated Tab because you often need to hit it repeatedly.  This is the same reason I prefer a dedicated Delete key.  I would need to try out using one that is brought out via a modifier to see if it is a problem, but my guess is that it will work fine, just slightly inconvenient.  I can't think of any common key combinations that use Delete, so those may not be a problem either.

Yes, a dedicated Delete key would be kind of nice. But a dedicated Insert key is kind of pointless (most people don't even use Ins at all), and since it also makes sense to have Ins and Del close to one another, you are forced to do something pointless (make Ins dedicated) just to do something nice (make Del dedicated).

On the other hand, Delete is probably one of those keys like Esc that you don't want to hit accidentally. It can after all cause files to be deleted and nasty stuff like that.

I like to have dedicated + and - for zooming (something you tend to do repeatedly), and also for --long-style-parameters, dashes (-- and --- in TeX), to make ascii separator lines like this ---------------------, to increment or decrement a variable (k--, c++). Not very important, but it's nice. Zooming is pretty important if all you have is a small screen.

Insert is critical for anyone communicating with TTY or IBM terminal emulation.  Ctrl+Ins is copy, Shift+Ins is paste.  Archaic, yes, but it does come up AND it's compliant with Linux via the Common User Access standard.

"The Cut command is ⇧ Shift+Del; Copy is Ctrl+Ins; Paste is ⇧ Shift+Ins;"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Common_User_Access

 

[Saber]

I would swap the insert/delete buttons because the lower button has more risks to be accidentally pressed, and it would be more a problem is delete is pressed than insert.

It's possible to do this but we have to remember those mini-buttons are rather shallow compared to ABXY. They may not be accidently pressable.

French Canadian here,


Why not use a ¨ dead key instead of using three keys for ö, ü, ä? This would allow for other dead keys like ¸ or ` while having the same number of typeable letters...


In any case, it'd be nice to have a friendly interface to actually adapt the keymap in the os, this way everybody could have what they prefer. I know a lot of us non-USA keyboardist are used to type on a keyboard that doesn't match its keymap anyways.


FG

This is actually a pretty good idea.

Sort of like this idea. At one point as some may recall I did have diacritic dead keys for grave, acute, and circumflex on one of my layouts. On the other hand, this is a German product leaning toward a German-like layout. Even if we do put dead keys on the keyboard some will feel jaded with whatever decisions are made. 

 

[bzar]

Leave the ßÄÖÜ unlabeled, but default-bound to those. We'll define them as "freely bindable" in the layout, so no software should expect them to create those characters, but try to obey whatever xmodmap or whatever says they are. Then people can put dead-key diacritics there if they want to

 

[Saber]

Leave the ßÄÖÜ unlabeled, but default-bound to those. We'll define them as "freely bindable" in the layout, so no software should expect them to create those characters, but try to obey whatever xmodmap or whatever says they are. Then people can put dead-key diacritics there if they want to

Imagine how often new people will ask the questions "Why didn't you label those four keys?" and "What happens when I press them?". Chaos ensues.