It's the keyboard layout.


' is not the same as ´. The former is not on the layout, while the latter is (as far as I can read it).
 
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slaeshjag said:
IT has the same kind of style as ", so to me it looks like there's ' but not ´
Click to expand...
Exactly. ' is frequently stylized as a forward tick. It also makes more sense for it to be a ' instead of ´. I also seem to recall this discussion already happening when this layout was proposed and the original creator (who I can't remember right now) even said it was intended as '.
 
WizardStan said:
slaeshjag said:
IT has the same kind of style as ", so to me it looks like there's ' but not ´
Click to expand...
Exactly. ' is frequently stylized as a forward tick. It also makes more sense for it to be a ' instead of ´. I also seem to recall this discussion already happening when this layout was proposed and the original creator (who I can't remember right now) even said it was intended as '.
Click to expand...
Yes, that's right as you said, AltGr + a is apostrophe and not acute(forward tick). In my sig under keyboard layouts I outlined how to add diacritics using a hold Shift with AltGr combo, but I don't know if it will be implemented in the Pyra, at least in the beginning. 

For those who want an Escape key as primary(although for me AltGr + q is acceptable), with this particular layout the way I'd do it is move Escape to where Menu is, then move Menu to under AltGr + Spacebar. I press Escape more often then I need the Start Menu, but as said where I had put Escape is fine too.

Concerning Dosbox, only those who use this emulator will know for sure, but I wonder if : and ; could be somehow set automatically, only when inside this program, to where the Euro and Micro symbols are at AltGr + n and m? Just an idea.

Forgot to mention this, but referring to Michael's opening post about missing symbols, the only one that I didn't place is degree, which in Compose Mode is o + o. If unfamiliar, a list of Compose sequences can be found here.
 
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There has never been time for me on the Pandora where it was an issue that ESC has been shared with Q. I've got quite used to hitting FN+Q in vim. 
 
I know I might be in the minority here, but I could go for an easier-to-reach super (pyra) key. Would be nice for custom key combinations if it was in a better position. How about sticky super in altgr-tab?

EDIT: Or plain super in altgr-right shift (this is actually quite a bit better than the altgr-tab sticky)
 
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Why is connectivity keys a thing? They'll be used like once or twice per session most of the time, and there could be some more used keys there...

I suppose äö being a bit easier to access is nice, but lack of å will create the same issue as on the pandora for me, prompting a remap.

Double-shift on keyboard? Why?
 
OK, so this was my original proposal that was closest to ED's desires (double-width space, centered QWERTY row, even though I'm not in favor of those design decisions): http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/658e08c2cfb797a4f1af2aaa6ae7865e

I adapted my proposal, looking at Saber's proposal and ED's remarks about it. This is the resulting compromise:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/96ce05fe6ad1693cb29247f4d18b7974

I think it attempts to satisfy all of the general criteria ED put forward.

It's still is mostly standard QWERTY, with dedicated Tab key, German ÄÖÜ included (and ß), all standard ASCII characters are available.

It does not have two shift keys in the keyboard part though, for the following reasons:

  • If we have two shift keys on the keyboard AND a third shift on a shoulder button, things get confusing because no normal keyboard has THREE shift keys.
  • We could make keyboard Shift sticky (like Fn on the Pandora) so it would not be particularly hard to type, say, capital W or S while holding it as a handheld and not using shoulder shift.
  • I prefer to have one more dedicated key (I chose the apostrophe ', since it is surprisingly important when you're writing informal English, also when you're writing formal English with quotes, and it is also an accent aigu with Compose).

Key combinations like ALT-F4 are why shoulder button modifiers are so great. Pressing L2+R2+4 should not be hard at all.

ESC is a dedicated key in my proposal. It is in a place that you're not likely to hit by accident.

' and ^ were not missing in Saber's proposal, and they're also not missing in mine (' is even a dedicated key). Note that dead key diacritics are also available (but not labeled) in my layout, but they should not be confused with the ASCII characters apostrophe and backtic.

I don't think we need ° and other such keys that are often available on non US-QWERTY keyboard (e.g. ², ³, §, µ, ¬, ±, ¶ and so on). You don't frequently need them, you can use compose when you need them. I also dropped µ and § for the same reason. Compose-M-U and Compose-S-O, it's not too hard to remember, and how often do you really need it?

In my proposal, + and - are dedicated keys (at the cost of having no dedicated Ins and Del, but the Pandora didn't have those either), so they are easy to reach. This makes sense when those keys are used for zooming in/out, and also - is a quite important key when writing (it's not just minus, it's also hyphen, en dash, and em dash) and when coding (e.g. command line parameters). My = key is easy to reach.

So what are the major differences between my proposal and the one in the first post of this thread?

  • My proposal looks less "busy" since there are less keys with extra labels; in fact I would even drop the explicit labels for ÄÖÜß since they are just for Germans and it should be easy enough to remember their position. Also the label for € could be dropped. We could also add ¥ at Y and ₤ at P or something, but who knows how long all of those currencies will even continue to exist ;)
  • No two shift keys on the keyboard itself, as mentioned before.
  • Dedicated keys for ', +, -, and Esc, but not for Ins and Del
  • Different position for F11 and F12
  • Backtic and tilde (` ~) closer to their expected position (top left)
  • 'Super' key (Logo/Windows key on normal keyboards) instead of 'Menu' key; of course tapping Super could very well make a menu appear, like in Ubuntu
  • No dedicated 4G and Wifi keys (with USB and BT as shift-keys), but one dedicated 'Hardware' key which supposedly makes an overlay appear which shows the hardware settings and lets you modify them. This could also include GPS, HDMI output, software volume, whatever. To be handled in software, instead of committing to some fixed set of toggles that are on the keymat and thus not modifiable.
  • I would handle mouse buttons differently (shoulder button taps could work), but since this has no impact on the keymat, let's not discuss that here.
  • No Caps lock, no Meta/AltGr lock. I don't see the need, at least not to label it. Shoulder button modifiers can be held down if you need to press multiple modified keys in sequence. Double-tap Shift or Double-tap Meta could be used for locking the modifiers, if you want to.
  • I make < and > the Meta keys and ; : the Shift keys. It also makes sense to do it like Saber did; that would be the US-QWERTY way (and the Pandora way), while my proposal corresponds to the German keyboard layout. I slightly prefer my way because I think ,; and .: "belong together", while < > are a kind of delimiter like [ ] and { }.
What did I change w.r.t. my earlier proposal?

  • Split the single brightness key into two (br up and br down).
  • Moved the keyboard Meta key to a more easily reachable spot in the main keyboard block (like Fn on the Pandora)
  • Moved ,; .: to the left.
  • Moved ' " to the right.
  • No more dedicated slash key ( / ? ). Had to sacrifice it to make room for Meta.
  • Added SysRq as Meta+Hardware
 
I'd prefer " to be on shift-2 moving @ to where ' is other than that it looks ok...
 
One innocent question ? Why are german keys required when it's accepted now in modern German to write those letters as combinations ? i.e. ü is accepted as ue, etc...
 
codifies said:
I'd prefer " to be on shift-2 moving @ to where ' is
Click to expand...
That's one of those EU vs NA things and is most definitely going to lead to about half the population being bothered no matter which way it goes.It actually really sucks that ED can't afford to produce two keymats: one North American and the other European. Fewer compromises would be requried, I'm pretty sure you could easily make 90% of us reasonably happy that way.
 
codifies said:
I'd prefer " to be on shift-2 moving @ to where ' is other than that it looks ok...
Click to expand...
Why would you want that? Standard QWERTY has !@#$%^&*() on the shifted number row, let's keep it like that.

And what do you mean by "it" when you say "it looks ok"? ;)

ekianjo said:
One innocent question ? Why are german keys required when it's accepted now in modern German to write those letters as combinations ? i.e. ü is accepted as ue, etc...
Click to expand...
I suppose you still want to write correctly sometimes, even if it's also acceptable and understood if you write ue, oe, ae, ss. Even if it's just to fit just a few more letters into your tweet ;)

So I see why a German would want to have keys for Ä Ö Ü ß, just like I see why a Frenchman would want to have a way to input É È À Ù Ç Œ Ê Ô and so on (meme si ca va aussi comme ca). As a speaker of Dutch, I can make myself perfectly clear (as in: people will understand me) without using ÁÉÍÓÚÄËÏÖÜÀÈ and so on, but I still would like to be able to type those letters, because every now and then that's just the right way to spell a word.

But I do think that it would be better no to put the labels Ä Ö Ü ß on the keymat. That way, it looks more universal. You can still have those keys in those spots by default, just don't label them. That way, it's nicer for all the non-Germans, who don't need those symbols, or who want to put different symbols in those spots (e.g. Å Æ Ø).

In my proposal, Ä is at A, Ö is at O, Ü is at U and ß is at S. This is of course not how it is on a real German keyboard (they have dedicated keys at P+1 and L+2, which is impossible in a centered layout; for this reason I still prefer a left-aligned layout, but let's not go there again), but it is easy enough to remember, even without the explicit label.
 
Since it only makes sense for germans to have AOUS for additional characters, it could be confusing to remember where they are compared to having them in the approximate correct position in a familiar looking cluster, if they aren't labled.
 
WizardStan said:
codifies said:
I'd prefer " to be on shift-2 moving @ to where ' is
Click to expand...
That's one of those EU vs NA things and is most definitely going to lead to about half the population being bothered no matter which way it goes.
It actually really sucks that ED can't afford to produce two keymats: one North American and the other European. Fewer compromises would be requried, I'm pretty sure you could easily make 90% of us reasonably happy that way.
Click to expand...
If there would be two keymats, I would prefer the difference to be about something more significant than just the shifted number row symbols. Left-aligned (perhaps even with dedicated Ä Ö Ü keys) versus centered, for example.

But I think it's better to stick to just one keymat for now, to keep things simple. Two keymats wouldn't be enough to make significantly more people happy anyway. There are many small differences between all those EU keyboards. I don't like all those different standards. I live in Belgium, where the official keyboard layout is (the Belgian variant of) AZERTY. The first thing I do when I order a laptop, is select an option to get a normal QWERTY keyboard with it. I always use QWERTY keyboards if I get the chance. At work and at home, I only use QWERTY. In the computer labs at our CS department, all computers have two keyboards: an AZERTY one and a QWERTY one. It's rather silly.
 
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